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Urgent Help Needed: Removal Order Issued and IRCC has sent a fairness letter to ultimately reject the application

Glory. A. O

Full Member
Jan 21, 2021
41
10
The only question I have is this: If he applied for citizenship in 2017, having met all the requirements, how come he had not yet been granted citizenship? 2017 is over 3 years ago.
Did he ignore invitations to citizenship test or oath ceremony?
 

azi3020980

Member
Feb 17, 2021
11
1
The only question I have is this: If he applied for citizenship in 2017, having met all the requirements, how come he had not yet been granted citizenship? 2017 is over 3 years ago.
Did he ignore invitations to citizenship test or oath ceremony?
No I passed the test 20/20. It was 3 years ago. Ever since that, the RQ process has been pending. It was apparent from the very beginning that IRCC did not want to look at all the docs that I had provided. They knew it would prove I was in Canada for what claimed to be. So after submitting the RQ docs, nothing had been done on the file. Maybe intentionally. Maybe not. I do not know.
 

azi3020980

Member
Feb 17, 2021
11
1
I would like to thank everyone specially @dpenabill for the detailed insights. My lawyer has advised me that nothing can be done in regards to the IRCC's citizenship department's procedural fairness letter at this point. To be fair, he is a busy person and my deal was only for the IAD. I am trying to get clarification from him if he can do anything but his first email was: sorry nothing can be done. The more I learn, it seems nothing can really be done!

I might send a letter to IRCC just explaining the IAD process myself. Yet, I am not sure it will have any effect. Obviously I will have the option of leave of absence to the federal court. But that is after IRCC has rejected the application. The application that it never really processed. What I can say is this: what would you do if you were IRCC and as IRCC, you suspected that if you wait long enough, instead of processing a 400+ RQ case, you just send 2 letters: 1 for procedural fairness and 1 for rejection of the poor applicant. Now IRCC is busy. Very busy. Covid has stretched their limits. So ditching a few troublesome applicants can greatly increase efficiency. And it is very legal. Period.
 
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azi3020980

Member
Feb 17, 2021
11
1
Further Observations For Clarification:



This has been answered, at least to the extent it can be answered by non-lawyers. A PR "under" a removal order is NOT eligible for a grant of citizenship. Whether or when the removal order itself is enforceable is a separate matter. For context: there are scores of PRs and former PRs IN Canada for whom, in one way or another, process to enforce an issued removal order is stayed . . . the fact that an order is stayed (not enforceable), such as pending appeal or collateral processing, does not in itself eliminate the decision itself.

For further clarification . . .

As for the fact of meeting the presence requirement for citizenship at the time of applying, @robteix accurately explained:


What is not exactly right is . . .


No. The PR Residency Obligation is NOT self-enforcing. Even PRs who have been outside Canada TEN years do not automatically lose their PR status. Absent renouncing status, they remain a PR UNLESS and UNTIL there is a formal adjudication, a formal determination, that the individual is inadmissible.

But otherwise, being outside Canada for more than three years means (subject to exceptions) a PR has failed to comply with the PR RO and is subject to proceedings to determine if the PR is in breach of the RO and therefore inadmissible, and if so, a decision that terminates PR status (unless set aside in an appeal).



Here too, what is not quite right is that there is a difference between a decision to terminate PR status and when PR status is lost. PR status is NOT lost pending an appeal of a decision to terminate PR status.

REMINDER: RO compliance examinations typically occur in the context of the following events:
-- PoE examination for a PR arriving in Canada from abroad (but usually only when circumstances give border officials to have RO compliance concerns)​
-- application for PR Travel Document by a PR abroad without a valid PR card​
-- application for a new PR card​
-- application to sponsor a family member​


More About Still Being a PR Pending Appeal of Negative RO Decision:

Even if a visa office denies an application for a PR TD, based on a breach of the RO, or border officials (CBSA) issue a 44(1) Inadmissibility Report and a Departure or Removal Order (a "Departure Order" is a type of removal order), the individual remains a PR pending an appeal of the decision.

So the OP is still a Canadian Permanent Resident. Albeit a PR who is "under a removal order."

So the OP continues to meet the citizenship requirement to be a "PR," but does not meet the requirement to be a PR who is "not under a removal order."




To be frank, it is NOT clear how many people do this successfully. Anecdotal reports in the forum indicate many do. BUT other anecdotal reports indicate more than a few encounter problems. Federal Court decisions illustrate cases in which some have been denied citizenship.

There is a tendency in this forum to grossly understate or underestimate the RISKS involved in moving abroad while an application for citizenship is pending. I do not understand why, but there also seems to be a tendency here to dismiss as negative opinion (or even falsely accuse xenophobia) what are simply observations about how many Canadians feel regarding those they describe as "applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport," or those otherwise perceived to be "seeking-a-passport-of-convenience," and how this can influence the processing of a citizenship application by the total stranger bureaucrats who make the decisions.

Spoiler alert: does not help to be seen as gaming-the-system.
@dpenabill what do you mean "Spoiler alert: does not help to be seen as gaming-the-system."?
Are you suggesting that I was seen as gaming the system?
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
93,200
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Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
@dpenabill what do you mean "Spoiler alert: does not help to be seen as gaming-the-system."?
Are you suggesting that I was seen as gaming the system?
The last bit is not about you.

dpenabill is referencing an ongoing discussion / argument in another thread.
 
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JHT

Star Member
Sep 4, 2020
82
26
if you did not meet RO when you got reported

you have to prove Humantarian and compassionate reasons, under IRCC definition, for Not doing that.

If you have one or more and are able to prove it properly , I’d suggest getting a lawyer
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,299
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@dpenabill what do you mean "Spoiler alert: does not help to be seen as gaming-the-system."?
Are you suggesting that I was seen as gaming the system?
I know near nothing about your case or why you were RQ'd.

While that observation was in response to a query posed by @novascotia27, the point is that an applicant who is living outside Canada after applying is at RISK for being PERCEIVED to be someone who is seeking-a-passport-of-convenience.

That is not against the law or the rules (currently anyway). But it is contrary to the purpose and intent of the law providing a path to naturalized citizenship.

The kicker is about how an applicant might "be SEEN." That is, what officials might PERCEIVE.

In particular, as I have mentioned in another topic, even though there is currently no provision of law prohibiting applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport or otherwise moving abroad while the application is pending, there are obviously many people who have an overt plan to just barely meet the requirements for Canadian citizenship and then live outside Canada, that is, individuals who are in fact seeking-a-passport-of-convenience and thus are in fact exploiting the Canadian system . . . which one might say, more casually, is gaming-the-system. Which is not prohibited. It is not against the rules. But again it is contrary to the purpose and intent of the law. So if, in the eyes of the total stranger bureaucrat evaluating the application, the applicant is "seen" or perceived to be someone seeking-a-passport-of-convenience, of course there is an increased chance of elevated scrutiny or even overt skepticism.

Again, I cannot guess to what extent this had any influence in the decision to issue you RQ or, as it appears, to process your application as a questionable-presence-case.

But my response to @novascotia27 was to note that it is NO surprise that an applicant living abroad after applying encounters non-routine processing and longer than usual delays in processing.

It may be worth noting that even though there is currently no provision of law prohibiting applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport or otherwise moving abroad while the application is pending, there was such a provision, however, until June 2017, which gave CIC/IRCC authority to deny an application if it was determined the applicant was not residing in Canada while the application was pending.
 

azi3020980

Member
Feb 17, 2021
11
1
I wish I knew that leaving Canada after applying would be this much trouble. When Mr. Trudeau changed the law with the date of effect in Oct. 2017, no one was talking about this practice. Many believed that applying and leaving the country might be fine. The law never clearly mentioned that leaving the country would be led to the nightmare of RQ. I wish I knew. I would have definitely planned differently. I might lose my PR. For those who are reading these forums: DO NOT LEAVE THE COUNTRY AFTER APPLYING FOR CITIZENSHIP!
 

Seym

Champion Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,536
745
OP's previous message should actually be seen differently : Keep respecting every single one of the application requirements till the oath.
That includes the PR residency requirements. Leaving Canada after applying is not, in itself, an impediment to the obtention of the citizenship. It may (key word. May is not will nor should) raise eyebrows and have consequences, as @dpenabill clarified, and those consequences could be a long treatment that may lead to a residency breach, but that's not an impossibility, far from it, at least with the current law. Unless there's a breach in the requirements (and there have been people arrested by police after receiving their oath invitation after all...), it shouldn't lead to anything but to becoming a citizen, however bumpy the road can be.
Very sorry for what happened to OP. It may have been clear to most, but yeah, it sucks to end up in this situation. Hope things go well.
 
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scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
93,200
20,663
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
I wish I knew that leaving Canada after applying would be this much trouble. When Mr. Trudeau changed the law with the date of effect in Oct. 2017, no one was talking about this practice. Many believed that applying and leaving the country might be fine. The law never clearly mentioned that leaving the country would be led to the nightmare of RQ. I wish I knew. I would have definitely planned differently. I might lose my PR. For those who are reading these forums: DO NOT LEAVE THE COUNTRY AFTER APPLYING FOR CITIZENSHIP!
I personally do not think that's the key message here.

I think the key message is to make sure you continue to meet the PR residency requirement while your citizenship application is processing and until such a time as you are approved for citizenship.

Lots of people leave Canada after applying and are successful in getting citizenship. Lots of people get RQ (including my own husband back in 2012) and are successful in getting citizenship. What makes your situation so different is that you no longer meet the residency requirements for PR.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,299
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Keep respecting every single one of the application requirements till the oath.
Excellent brief statement. This is, perhaps, the overriding key. Particularly in regards to the OP's situation.

I wish I knew that leaving Canada after applying would be this much trouble. When Mr. Trudeau changed the law with the date of effect in Oct. 2017, no one was talking about this practice. Many believed that applying and leaving the country might be fine. The law never clearly mentioned that leaving the country would be led to the nightmare of RQ. I wish I knew. I would have definitely planned differently. I might lose my PR. For those who are reading these forums: DO NOT LEAVE THE COUNTRY AFTER APPLYING FOR CITIZENSHIP!
Your situation is what it is, where it is, and doing what you can to save your PR status appears to be your best shot at retaining a chance to settle in Canada permanently going forward.

I offer the following observations more for others, to balance the books, so to say, to highlight what really should be quite apparent if not obvious, but which tends to be dismissed by some, understated by many, or otherwise ignored (typically the latter comes when an individual focuses on reading and understanding the rules in a way that favours his or her plans, rather than making an effort to objectively understand the rules and how they apply).


To be fair:

-- many (at least it appears) relocate abroad after applying with NO problem​
-- -- since June 2017 there have been NO rules or laws prohibiting or penalizing citizenship applicants who live abroad after applying​
-- but there are RISKS, which​
-- -- others and I, probably me more often and more emphatically, have repeatedly cautioned about the RISKS . . . perhaps not in every topic where moving-abroad-after-applying comes up, but quite likely the majority of them, including discussions in this forum in 2017​
-- -- the RISKS VARY depending on the applicant's individual circumstances, ranging from how solid the application itself is to how long the applicant remains abroad . . . but the RISKS also vary depending on​
-- -- -- the extent to which it APPEARS (the extent to which the applicant might be PERCEIVED) the citizenship applicant is abusing the system, overtly acting CONTRARY to the purpose of the law​
-- -- -- other factors which might invite questions, doubts, skepticism, or outright suspicion about the applicant's credibility​

-- the PR Residency Obligation is more than adequately publicized and clearly applies to a PR who has applied for citizenship, so any failure to recognize the ongoing need to stay in compliance with the PR RO simply amounts to disregarding the rules​
-- the impact of RQ and resulting delays in processing is widely and well known, so once an applicant for citizenship has encountered RQ-related non-routine processing, the challenges the applicant faces are no mystery, not some hidden pitfall​
-- posts in forums like this summarily declaring it is OK to relocate abroad rarely, if ever, actually address the range of potential issues, let alone acknowledge the RISKS, and otherwise lack indicia of reliability; and, moreover, others and I will typically counter such naked overstatements, not only noting the RISKS but offering the underlying information and analysis​
-- -- many such posts focus on the fact that it is OK to "TRAVEL" abroad while the application is pending, and blur or ignore that relocating to live abroad is NOT the same as TRAVEL abroad

-- some of the posts which seem to encourage moving abroad after applying, especially those who label Canadians xenophobes if they oppose abuse of the system by those seeking-a-passport-of-convenience, appear to be disingenuous, some more or less engaging in pernicious troll or bait posting . . . perhaps I have been following this and related issues so long, I easily spot their insidious slant, but their inherent dishonesty usually does seem rather obvious​
-- -- the latter includes, in particular, posts emphasizing that "travel" abroad is OK in a way that makes it clear they are deliberately conflating or outright misleading the distinction between what is "travel" versus moving abroad to live​


Role and Significance of the Purpose and Intent of the Law; CREDIBILITY:

Apart from all the above, which warrants a lot more attention than it tends to get in this forum (except for my hammering away at this), there is a tendency by many to mistakenly focus too much on what the law technically ALLOWS as a guide for individual choices, overlooking the very real impact, and often rather substantial impact, of factors which can influence how a decision-maker (like IRCC processing agents and citizenship officers) perceives the applicant's credibility. Meeting the requirements is absolutely required. Of course. And as @Seym aptly noted, it is necessary to do so throughout the entire process. But the applicant's CREDIBILITY looms large, very large, in how the decision-making process unfolds. REMEMBER, the burden of proof is on the applicant. It is NOT enough to technically meet the requirements. To qualify for a grant of citizenship the PR must BOTH meet the requirements AND BE ABLE TO PROVE this.

As the Denzel Washington character in a bad-cops-shoot-em-up film rather aptly put it: "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

Who can directly prove exactly where they were EVERY day, every day that needs to be counted as a day IN Canada in order to meet the presence requirement? Of course that is not the standard. The standard depends on making REASONABLE INFERENCES. But the range of what can be reasonably inferred blows up if a decision-maker has cause to question or suspect the primary source of information, the applicant, lacks credibility.

For the vast, vast majority of applicants, IRCC simply relies on inferring the PR was IN Canada between a known date of entry and the next reported date of exit. But this is conditioned on ALL the facts and circumstances in the applicant's case supporting that inference, including all the information in regards to all travel dates, address history, work history, compliance with Canadian tax filing rules, and other details . . . MOST of which IRCC agents do not question UNLESS they have cause to question or suspect the applicant may not be credible.

Bringing this to the PURPOSE for the law governing who is qualified for a grant of citizenship. Make no mistake. The purpose and intent of the law is to facilitate settling and living IN Canada PERMANENTLY.

The fact that the Trudeau government repealed a provision that specifically enforced, as a qualifying requirement, the applicant have such intent did not change what the law's purpose and intent is. All that repeal did was eliminate "intent" as a stand alone ground for denying an application. So yes, an applicant for citizenship can relocate abroad after applying without fear of a penalty or otherwise having the application denied on that ground alone.

But if and when IRCC officials perceive that an applicant might have been deliberately using the Canadian system to obtain-a-passport-of-convenience, that is engaged in a plan CONTRARY to the purpose and intent of the law, DUH! Obviously that will raise RED FLAGS about the individual's credibility. Obviously there is a real risk that individual's application will be more thoroughly scrutinized, and in particular the evidence of actual presence in Canada at the least more thoroughly investigated.

Frankly, it does not require a whole lot of understanding to get this, let alone expertise. This is mostly about the extent to which some people are overtly gaming-the-system . . . and making it more difficult for others who, for this or that reason, need to relocate abroad after applying notwithstanding they are otherwise engaged in the process consistent with the purpose and intent of the law.

OVERALL: there is no direct enforcement provision which would allow IRCC to deny an application based on the PR's relocation abroad while the application is pending. But it is a mistake to overlook the fact that the purpose and intent of the law is to give immigrants a path to SETTLING PERMANENTLY in Canada. If and when an applicant's actions appear contrary to the purpose and intent of the law, of course that is bound to at least trigger questions . . . and for some, those questions can impair what inferences officials make in regards to evaluating the persuasiveness of proof the applicant was actually still in Canada between a known date of entry and the next reported date of exit.
 
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indigonation5

Star Member
Dec 21, 2018
141
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I wish I knew that leaving Canada after applying would be this much trouble. When Mr. Trudeau changed the law with the date of effect in Oct. 2017, no one was talking about this practice. Many believed that applying and leaving the country might be fine. The law never clearly mentioned that leaving the country would be led to the nightmare of RQ. I wish I knew. I would have definitely planned differently. I might lose my PR. For those who are reading these forums: DO NOT LEAVE THE COUNTRY AFTER APPLYING FOR CITIZENSHIP!
@azi3020980 Please possible for you to share with us, the reason that your RQ was raised in the first place, back in 2017?
 
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azi3020980

Member
Feb 17, 2021
11
1
A question for @dpenabill
First, thank you for all the insightful information you have shared here. I have found another person who is in the exact same shoes as me except that he/she has already been denied citizenship just recently with the following excerpt from the Citizenship Act being referred to at the end of the letter. This is something that @dpenabill did not discuss above and I would appreciate some clarification:

Section 2(2)c: should link Section 2(2)C of the Citizenship Act

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-29/section-2.html

(c) a person against whom a removal order has been made remains under that order

  • (i) unless all rights of review by or appeal to the Immigration Appeal Division of the Immigration and Refugee Board, the Federal Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court of Canada have been exhausted with respect to the order and the final result of those reviews or appeals is that the order has no force or effect, or
  • (ii) until the order has been executed.
@dpenabill what exactly:

(i) unless all rights of review by or appeal to the Immigration Appeal Division of the Immigration and Refugee Board, the Federal Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court of Canada have been exhausted with respect to the order and the final result of those reviews or appeals is that the order has no force or effect, or

means here? Doesnt it mean that one first should exhaust every opportunity that exists before being rejected a decision on their application based on being under a removal order? Can you clarify on this please?
 
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dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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A question for @dpenabill
First, thank you for all the insightful information you have shared here. I have found another person who is in the exact same shoes as me except that he/she has already been denied citizenship just recently with the following excerpt from the Citizenship Act being referred to at the end of the letter. This is something that @dpenabill did not discuss above and I would appreciate some clarification:

Section 2(2)c: should link Section 2(2)C of the Citizenship Act

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-29/section-2.html

(c) a person against whom a removal order has been made remains under that order

  • (i) unless all rights of review by or appeal to the Immigration Appeal Division of the Immigration and Refugee Board, the Federal Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court of Canada have been exhausted with respect to the order and the final result of those reviews or appeals is that the order has no force or effect, or
  • (ii) until the order has been executed.
@dpenabill what exactly:

(i) unless all rights of review by or appeal to the Immigration Appeal Division of the Immigration and Refugee Board, the Federal Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court of Canada have been exhausted with respect to the order and the final result of those reviews or appeals is that the order has no force or effect, or

means here? Doesnt it mean that one first should exhaust every opportunity that exists before being rejected a decision on their application based on being under a removal order? Can you clarify on this please?
I did not reference this particular provision, Section 2(2)(c) in the Citizenship Act (should link) and had not looked at it. So I appreciate this being brought to my attention . . . since it does directly answer one of the questions I did address in my first response here:

What Does "Under a Removal Order" mean?

There might be, just maybe, a question about whether a removal order, issued pursuant to subsection 44(1) IRPA for inadmissibility due to a breach of the PR RO, which is under appeal, constitutes being "under a removal order" as prescribed in 5(1)(f) Citizenship Act. Pending the appeal, such a removal order is NOT enforceable. It only becomes enforceable if the appeal is dropped, dismissed, or abandoned.
It does not answer the question why (as it appears based on anecdotal reporting) some applicants in this situation only have their citizenship application suspended pending the appeal while others, like you and the individual you reference, have the citizenship application denied.

As I have emphasized repeatedly, I am NOT an expert, I am not a Canadian lawyer, and for those confronted with issues like this it is a good idea to LAWYER-UP.

As noted, nonetheless, this does answer the question "What Does 'Under a Removal Order' mean?"

And the short answer is it means that pending an appeal, for purposes of the Citizenship Act generally, and thus for purposes of subsection 5(1)(f) Citizenship Act, a person is *UNDER* a Removal Order pending its appeal.

Before knowing there was a specific provision defining what "under a Removal Order" means, I suspected that if challenged the Federal Court would interpret the law just this way. Which is what underlies observations like this:
Since you are under a removal order, you do not meet the 5(1) eligibility requirements, 5(1)(f) in particular.
A PR "under" a removal order is NOT eligible for a grant of citizenship. Whether or when the removal order itself is enforceable is a separate matter.
Since I did not realize the Citizenship Act explicitly defines what "under" a Removal Order means (illustrating that I really am NOT an expert), I alluded to the possibility that perhaps the IRCC decision to deny the application could be challenged . . . BUT that would LAWYER STUFF, that would be a challenge requiring a lawyer.

It turns out that not even a lawyer could help. It turns out there is no need to interpret what "under a Removal Order" means. It means that pending an appeal, the individual is "under a Removal Order." In fact, even if the IAD had heard and decided the case in YOUR FAVOUR, issuing an order to set aside the 44(1) Report and Removal Order, if the Minister elected to seek review in the Federal Court, even then you would still be "under a Removal Order."

And as subsection 5(1)(f) in the Citizenship Act specifies, a person under a Removal Order is NOT eligible for a grant of citizenship.

While this is not the answer you were looking for, I am guessing, at the least it clarifies your situation and makes it clear, to continue to have status to live and work in Canada you will need to win the appeal, and if you want Canadian citizenship you will need to remain in Canada and meet the physical presence requirement before you become eligible to apply again.

In any event, again, I very much appreciate you bringing this definition to my attention. This allows us, forum participants, to more definitively address the issue, and highlight the risk with more emphasis. Thank you. This is the sort of follow-up to a discussion that really helps this forum be a useful resource of information.