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Should I withdraw my PR renewal application

Xaaxcsc

Newbie
Aug 20, 2019
1
0
hi. I’m a student studying in a university in Ontario and I haven’t met my PR obligations. Background: my parents and I became permanent residents in August 2014 (I was 14 at this time) when we came to canada, stayed there for 3 weeks and went back to our home country with plans to come back. However, during this time my grandmother, who lived with us and was under my father’s care, fell extremely sick, got dementia, and we could no longer come to Canada since my father had to take care of her. I always wanted to study in Canada so I decided to go study there anyway when I was 18. In September 2018 I was able to enter Canada with no problems since I am also a green card holder and we drove to canada through US. I have been studying in Canada since sept 2018 as a permanent resident. I sent my PR renewal application in March 2019 on the basis on H&C since I was a minor taken out of Canada and returned as soon as I could.

So here’s my problem: my application was filed months ago but it is still processing. And now I am starting to have doubts. I got into Canada with 0 problems and I just realized that I didn’t even have to send in that renewal application since there is a risk of rejection and removal. I am starting to feel that I should have continued studying in Canada for 2 years, as I am, and then applied for a regular PR renewal just like everyone else since there is less of a risk in that. But I didn’t know this back when I sent my Pr renewal application in a panic that I was going to be removed. I am starting to regret that decision and I’m considering withdrawing that application. Or is my situation legitimate and I have a chance of being granted a renewal? I was also wondering how long it takes for such cases to be granted/sorted out and how long of a wait should I expect before I recieive a decision. Should I have gone about this differently or should I just let it be? My PR renewal application is currently in process. I don’t know what reason to use for withdrawal of application either. I read online it takes 32 weeks for H&C cases to be completed is that true
 
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jddd

Champion Member
Oct 1, 2017
1,251
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At this point, even if you could withdraw the application, the first review has already been facilitated and they already know you are not in compliance with RO.

More people are reporting rejection when using the removed as a minor reason. Best to wait for the response.
 
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melrose37

Member
Mar 17, 2018
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My daughter has similar experience but finally after two years got interviewed and passed. She is citizen now.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
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hi. I’m a student studying in a university in Ontario and I haven’t met my PR obligations. Background: my parents and I became permanent residents in August 2014 (I was 14 at this time) when we came to canada, stayed there for 3 weeks and went back to our home country with plans to come back. However, during this time my grandmother, who lived with us and was under my father’s care, fell extremely sick, got dementia, and we could no longer come to Canada since my father had to take care of her. I always wanted to study in Canada so I decided to go study there anyway when I was 18. In September 2018 I was able to enter Canada with no problems since I am also a green card holder and we drove to canada through US. I have been studying in Canada since sept 2018 as a permanent resident. I sent my PR renewal application in March 2019 on the basis on H&C since I was a minor taken out of Canada and returned as soon as I could.

So here’s my problem: my application was filed months ago but it is still processing. And now I am starting to have doubts. I got into Canada with 0 problems and I just realized that I didn’t even have to send in that renewal application since there is a risk of rejection and removal. I am starting to feel that I should have continued studying in Canada for 2 years, as I am, and then applied for a regular PR renewal just like everyone else since there is less of a risk in that. But I didn’t know this back when I sent my Pr renewal application in a panic that I was going to be removed. I am starting to regret that decision and I’m considering withdrawing that application. Or is my situation legitimate and I have a chance of being granted a renewal? I was also wondering how long it takes for such cases to be granted/sorted out and how long of a wait should I expect before I recieive a decision. Should I have gone about this differently or should I just let it be? My PR renewal application is currently in process. I don’t know what reason to use for withdrawal of application either. I read online it takes 32 weeks for H&C cases to be completed is that true
If you get refused you have already been lucky enough ro receice domestic tuition without meeting your RO or youe family contributing the tax base. You are in the same position as most international students and could get q student permit and pay international fees.
 
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Bentham

Member
Sep 8, 2018
18
2
Just wait and see what happens. In 2018 I applied for PR renewal for my son and myself. Four months passed - no news. We asked a local MP to inquire. After that I received a letter saying that my son's photo did not comply with the requirements. We sent a new one. Three months - no news. I made an inquiry about his application myself, through CIC system, the answer was something like "we have no records of his application". Only after the second inquiry from our MP they were able to locate my son's file. So chances are that they can simply mess up with someone's application, and the person is not proactive they do not even deal with the case. This can work in your favour if this is your case.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
4,166
1,369
hi. I’m a student studying in a university in Ontario and I haven’t met my PR obligations. Background: my parents and I became permanent residents in August 2014 (I was 14 at this time) when we came to canada, stayed there for 3 weeks and went back to our home country with plans to come back. However, during this time my grandmother, who lived with us and was under my father’s care, fell extremely sick, got dementia, and we could no longer come to Canada since my father had to take care of her. I always wanted to study in Canada so I decided to go study there anyway when I was 18. In September 2018 I was able to enter Canada with no problems since I am also a green card holder and we drove to canada through US. I have been studying in Canada since sept 2018 as a permanent resident. I sent my PR renewal application in March 2019 on the basis on H&C since I was a minor taken out of Canada and returned as soon as I could.

So here’s my problem: my application was filed months ago but it is still processing. And now I am starting to have doubts. I got into Canada with 0 problems and I just realized that I didn’t even have to send in that renewal application since there is a risk of rejection and removal. I am starting to feel that I should have continued studying in Canada for 2 years, as I am, and then applied for a regular PR renewal just like everyone else since there is less of a risk in that. But I didn’t know this back when I sent my Pr renewal application in a panic that I was going to be removed. I am starting to regret that decision and I’m considering withdrawing that application. Or is my situation legitimate and I have a chance of being granted a renewal? I was also wondering how long it takes for such cases to be granted/sorted out and how long of a wait should I expect before I recieive a decision. Should I have gone about this differently or should I just let it be? My PR renewal application is currently in process. I don’t know what reason to use for withdrawal of application either. I read online it takes 32 weeks for H&C cases to be completed is that true
No need to panic. The best you can do now is wait to see how this goes.

Very difficult to forecast what will happen, but my GUESS is the odds are in your favour, perhaps well in your favour.

The good news is that if IRCC was going to proceed to schedule a formal Residency Obligation date it is likely they would have done so by now. It is difficult to guess where the application is now, or why. BUT as you have since learned, you do not need to get a new card to go on living and studying here. As a Canadian, a Canadian PR and resident of Canada, you are of course entitled to the same benefits, including educational benefits, any other Canadian is entitled to.

In the meantime, your days are still counting toward compliance with the RO. So the longer it goes without having a formal RO determination, the closer you get to compliance. And if you are scheduled for an interview or examination, the more days you have in your favour in the H&C analysis to determine whether you should be allowed to keep PR status. Your current presence in Canada PLUS your return to Canada within the first five years PLUS your return soon after reaching the age of 18, PROBABLY MAKES FOR AT LEAST A FAIRLY GOOD, IF NOT QUITE STRONG H&C CASE.

The somewhat bad news you got from @jddd

At this point, even if you could withdraw the application, the first review has already been facilitated and they already know you are not in compliance with RO.
And there is even some observations in the PDIs or Operational Bulletins about this, that if someone requests withdrawing their application, officials should nonetheless review the case to determine if there is cause to take action such as pursuing removal proceedings.

But, to my view things look like they are probably (no guarantee, sorry) headed in a favourable direction . . . this is given the positive factors in your H&C case, including the amount of time you have now been in Canada, and the fact that IRCC has NOT proceeded to call you in for an interview at which they would determine your compliance with the RO as of that day.

There is one part of that post I disagree with:

More people are reporting rejection when using the removed as a minor reason.
No idea where any such statistic for young PRs applying for a PR card might come from. In following these issues I have seen very, very few such cases and I recall NO negative outcomes

Indeed, it has only been in the last couple years or so that we have seen an increase in the number of reported PR Travel Document applications denied when made by young PRs purportedly removed as a minor BUT so far as I have seen ALL of those are PR TD applications (NOT PR card applications) made after absences from Canada MANY YEARS more than you were absent, and all by individuals who spent way less time actually in Canada than you now have. AND again this is in regards to applications for a PR TD not PR card, applications made by individuals NOT in Canada and NOT even recently in Canada.

It is not certain, but it also appears the difference between merely arriving at a PoE to enter and stay in Canada might make a big difference compared to those who apply for a PR TD from abroad. Feet in Canada likely considered to be a real, concrete step toward settling in Canada. At least enough so to give the PR a chance to stay and settle.

Since most who are in breach of the RO but nonetheless are allowed entry without being reported realize it would be foolish to proceed to apply for a PR card until they are at least well established in Canada, two full years to be really safe, we see very few reports from young PRs like you applying sooner than that for a PR card. So there is not much anecdotal reporting to draw on for you particular situation. That said, you were allowed entry at the PoE, and the amount of time since you submitted your PR card application signals there is little or no effort at IRCC to aggressively pursue termination of your status. Indeed, the timeline might be due to watching to see whether you actually stay. If you stay, OK. If you leave soon, you will need a PR TD or will be examined at a PoE when you want to return.

The situation is significantly shy of an ALL-CLEAR signal, as there remains some risk this could still go in a negative direction (in which case you appeal, get to stay for another academic year, and by the time you are at the IAD the equities should be well in your favour, giving you a better than usual chance of winning the appeal compared to most others appealing loss-of-PR decisions). That is, NO guarantees. But the dominant winds appear to be blowing in your favour.

So as a couple others have suggested, not much to do but WAIT, and probably fair to be waiting optimistically.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
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Just wait and see what happens. In 2018 I applied for PR renewal for my son and myself. Four months passed - no news. We asked a local MP to inquire. After that I received a letter saying that my son's photo did not comply with the requirements. We sent a new one. Three months - no news. I made an inquiry about his application myself, through CIC system, the answer was something like "we have no records of his application". Only after the second inquiry from our MP they were able to locate my son's file. So chances are that they can simply mess up with someone's application, and the person is not proactive they do not even deal with the case. This can work in your favour if this is your case.
Think your case seems a lot more complicated.

https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/do-i-need-to-certify-departure.582466/
 

vensak

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Ok things in your favour:
You returned to Canada more or less as soon as you could (once you turned 18). You are now in Canada.
Things against you:
When you left as minor you had virtually 0 connections to this country (apart of a nice piece of paper stating that you are PR).
You also cannot use directly why your family did not settle in Canada. As a minor, you were not supposed to be responsible to take care of an ill family member.

And thing that can bring you in trouble:
You have mentioned that you also have a green card. So i hope for your sake, that you are not trying to upkeep that one as well (like travelling back and forth between USA and Canada), otherwise such frequent trips would make a big dent in your H&C statement (as you should be trying to meet RO as soon as possible).
And yes it might mean that you might have to sacrify your Green card in the process (here I do not know how long can you afford to stay outside USA to keep it).
 

Bentham

Member
Sep 8, 2018
18
2
Mine -yes, a lot more complicated. But I am talking about my son's case. In the first place, after resubmitting his papers with a correct photo they failed to process it and open a file for him. Only after the MP stepped in few months later, my son's file appeared in the system. While waiting for my own PR renewal, I was reported by CBSA. My son was not. I started an appeal. After that I received two PR cards for my son an myself valid for one year. At the scheduling conference the Minster's Counsel told me that my son was not included into my departure order and his status was not changed. When I asked her why he was granted only one year PR card if he had applied for a regular five-year renewal, she could not answer that question. That is what I call mess as there were no legal grounds to what they did with my son's application.

BTW, I got the answer to my question posed in the thread that you are quoting in the case-law.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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Mine -yes, a lot more complicated. But I am talking about my son's case. In the first place, after resubmitting his papers with a correct photo they failed to process it and open a file for him. Only after the MP stepped in few months later, my son's file appeared in the system. While waiting for my own PR renewal, I was reported by CBSA. My son was not. I started an appeal. After that I received two PR cards for my son an myself valid for one year. At the scheduling conference the Minster's Counsel told me that my son was not included into my departure order and his status was not changed. When I asked her why he was granted only one year PR card if he had applied for a regular five-year renewal, she could not answer that question. That is what I call mess as there were no legal grounds to what they did with my son's application.

BTW, I got the answer to my question posed in the thread that you are quoting in the case-law.
To be clear, rather obviously in fact, as long as your son still has PR status, there are indeed "legal grounds" for issuing him a PR card. And, in this regard, IRCC has a lot of discretion relative to the issuance of a "status" document like a PR card. The difference between issuing a five year PR card and a one-year PR card is a matter of administrative policy and practice. Even though the USUAL policy or practice might be to issue a five year card, there is no particular legality question raised if IRCC elects to issue only a one-year card.

Rather than perceive this to be a "mess," it would be prudent to recognize it for what it quite likely is: IRCC apprehends a possible if not probable RO compliance question, and the one-year card more or less gives him an opportunity to stay in Canada and be in compliance (or get into compliance) . . . effectively putting off challenging his RO compliance . . . something like a bring-forward date. For him, remember, if he leaves Canada, he can still be examined for RO compliance the next time he returns.

My GUESS . . . just a GUESS . . . is that in effect the deciding officer at IRCC elected to issue the one-year card to avoid making a full H&C evaluation that issuing a five year card probably requires if the PR appears to be short of complying with the RO. That is, to issue the five year card, a positive H&C determination was probably necessary, but that would have also, to a large but not necessarily definitive extent, restarted the five year clock . . . and the deciding officer may NOT have been OK with doing that.

Bottom-line: far better to be issued a one-year PR card than be denied and need to appeal.

Odds are IRCC will determine your son's compliance the next time he applies for a PR card or is examined at a PoE. And the outcome of your case will likely be a factor.

I realize there were, reportedly, other *problems* with the PR card applications. And sure, IRCC is a bureaucracy and a bureaucracy is what a bureaucracy does, which means applications and such sometimes go off the rails for little or no apparent reason, things going bump in the night. BUT it is otherwise apparent that, at best, compliance with the RO was questionable (your PR card application was for sure a non-routine H&C case . . . it is not clear but it appears this was true for your son as well), making the applications non-routine, and as things tend to go in bureaucracies, non-routine is a recipe for things going off the rails. BUT mostly, it appears that IRCC was NOT prepared to give a full H&C pass to your son and thus the one-year card.

By the way: once you were IN Canada, applying for a new PR card based on H&C grounds was very risky. Then, when no decision was forthcoming, the risks were at least elevated if not compounded by pushing IRCC to take action on the applications.
 

Bentham

Member
Sep 8, 2018
18
2
And, in this regard, IRCC has a lot of discretion relative to the issuance of a "status" document like a PR card. The difference between issuing a five year PR card and a one-year PR card is a matter of administrative policy and practice. Even though the USUAL policy or practice might be to issue a five year card, there is no particular legality question raised if IRCC elects to issue only a one-year card.

Rather than perceive this to be a "mess," it would be prudent to recognize it for what it quite likely is: IRCC apprehends a possible if not probable RO compliance question, and the one-year card more or less gives him an opportunity to stay in Canada and be in compliance (or get into compliance) . . . effectively putting off challenging his RO compliance . . . something like a bring-forward date. For him, remember, if he leaves Canada, he can still be examined for RO compliance the next time he returns.

My GUESS . . . just a GUESS . . . is that in effect the deciding officer at IRCC elected to issue the one-year card to avoid making a full H&C evaluation that issuing a five year card probably requires if the PR appears to be short of complying with the RO. That is, to issue the five year card, a positive H&C determination was probably necessary, but that would have also, to a large but not necessarily definitive extent, restarted the five year clock . . . and the deciding officer may NOT have been OK with doing that.
Thanks a lot for your thoughts! This is really appreciated.

The regulations are quite specific on the issuance of a one-year PR card.
  • 54 (1) Subject to subsection (2), a permanent resident card is valid for five years from the date of issue.

  • Marginal note:Exception

    (2) A permanent resident card is valid for one year from the date of issue if, at the time of issue, the permanent resident
    • (a) is subject to the process set out in paragraph 46(1)(b) of the Act;

    • (b) is the subject of a report prepared under subsection 44(1) of the Act;

    • (c) is subject to a removal order made by the Minister under subsection 44(2) of the Act and the period for filing an appeal from the decision has not expired or, if an appeal is filed, there has been no final determination of the appeal; or

    • (d) is the subject of a report referred to the Immigration Division under subsection 44(2) of the Act and the period for filing an appeal from the decision of the Immigration Division has not expired or, if an appeal is filed, there has been no final determination of the appeal.

At the scheduling conference the Minster's Council emphasized that my son was not subject to any of those procedures. Could you indicate any source that gives immigration officers discretion to issue a one-year card in cases other than specified in the Regulations?

My impression is that the IRCC's decision was for purposes of saving their time and effort rather then giving a chance to comply with RO. I think they tied my son's application to my appeal and intend to decide on his application in accordance with the outcome of my appeal which may have positive or negative effect on his application. More negative as H&C are more frequently dismissed than allowed. If what they did is an indication of giving a chance to comply with RO, then the failure to open a case for my son within three months after mailing the application is also and indication of a second chance. The longer they do not process the application the better from such perspective. However, from the same perspective, the most logical would be not to process the application for full two years and see if the PR takes this chance.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
4,166
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Thanks a lot for your thoughts! This is really appreciated.

The regulations are quite specific on the issuance of a one-year PR card.
  • 54 (1) Subject to subsection (2), a permanent resident card is valid for five years from the date of issue.

  • Marginal note:Exception

    (2) A permanent resident card is valid for one year from the date of issue if, at the time of issue, the permanent resident
    • (a) is subject to the process set out in paragraph 46(1)(b) of the Act;

    • (b) is the subject of a report prepared under subsection 44(1) of the Act;

    • (c) is subject to a removal order made by the Minister under subsection 44(2) of the Act and the period for filing an appeal from the decision has not expired or, if an appeal is filed, there has been no final determination of the appeal; or

    • (d) is the subject of a report referred to the Immigration Division under subsection 44(2) of the Act and the period for filing an appeal from the decision of the Immigration Division has not expired or, if an appeal is filed, there has been no final determination of the appeal.

At the scheduling conference the Minster's Council emphasized that my son was not subject to any of those procedures. Could you indicate any source that gives immigration officers discretion to issue a one-year card in cases other than specified in the Regulations?

My impression is that the IRCC's decision was for purposes of saving their time and effort rather then giving a chance to comply with RO. I think they tied my son's application to my appeal and intend to decide on his application in accordance with the outcome of my appeal which may have positive or negative effect on his application. More negative as H&C are more frequently dismissed than allowed. If what they did is an indication of giving a chance to comply with RO, then the failure to open a case for my son within three months after mailing the application is also and indication of a second chance. The longer they do not process the application the better from such perspective. However, from the same perspective, the most logical would be not to process the application for full two years and see if the PR takes this chance.
Assuming your son is not an independent adult, I agree it is quite likely the decision regarding his PR card was "tied" to your case and appeal. That makes sense.

That said, I do not read Regulation 54 as a mandate to issue a five year card or one year card ONLY in the prescribed circumstances. Regulation 54 does not mandate (does not use terms like "shall") the issuance of five or one year cards, and in effect outlines the term of time for which IRCC MAY isssue PR cards; NOT what IRCC must isssue.

That is, I do not read Regulation 54 to support the view that issuing a one-year card was illegal or as you have framed it, was without legal grounds. As I previously noted, IRCC has very wide discretion in these matters . . . and even despite Regulation 59, which does employ the term "shall" and mandates the issuance of a PR card upon application, it is not uncommon to see PR card applications "in process" without any decision, without issuing any PR card, for many months and sometimes longer than a year, even a year plus a lot. (And in unusual cases, for years.)

In following PR obligation and PR card cases for a long while now, I can recall just a couple cases in which a Federal Court has granted mandamus, ordering CIC (both were before the name change to IRCC in late 2015) to provide PR cards . . . in at least one of those cases, however, the order was to "Deliver" an already issued card (which had been withheld from the PR following a counter interview). The circumstances in those cases were highly unusual and it was apparent that CIC (this was during the Harper and Kenney/Alexander period) had unreasonably deliberately stalled processing or unreasonably declined to deliver a new card (my recall is not clear enough to cite them again or state what was unreasonable, but clear enough to be confident the circumstances bore no semblance to your son's situation).

In contrast, the way IRCC has approached this for your son has actually been to his benefit. Not unreasonable let alone contrary to law.

It is readily apparent you pushed IRCC to make a decision on the PR card application. It was foolish to make the PR card applications in the first instance. It was doubly foolish to push IRCC to make a decision. I should have noted, in making this particular observation, that the reason for that aspect of my observation was mostly for the benefit of other PRs who peruse these discussions for information that might help them make decisions in their own situations -- to emphasize, for them, what the conventional wisdom in this forum oft reiterates: if a PR in breach of the RO is allowed into Canada without being issued a 44(1) Report, BEST TO NOT APPLY FOR A NEW PR CARD UNTIL IN FULL COMPLIANCE WITH THE RO. Best to not leave Canada. Best to not apply to sponsor a family member. Best to simply NOT engage in any transaction (like applying for a new PR card) which will compel a RO determination, or which (like a sponsorship application) might trigger a RO determination.

To the extent there is a "mess" that is a mess made by you and your son. Not IRCC. And here too I do not make this observation to criticize or chastise, but to emphasize the instructional significance of your experience. To emphasize the take-away: once in Canada with no inadmissibility report, do not apply for a new card even if the H&C case is very strong (there are exceptions, where a PR may need more clarity about his or her status in order to make other compelling decisions, and waiting is not an option, and thus a situation in which a PR might elect to RISK making the H&C case).

In any event, it can NOT be emphasized enough that the very, very best H&C case is no where near as good as being in compliance with the RO.

ALL THAT SAID . . . you are right to in effect question whether my understanding of the law and regulations, and the procedure, may be flawed. I am NO expert.

Perhaps IRCC has indeed not just tied the decision to issue the one-year card but, perhaps, has definitively tied your son's case to yours and if you lose the appeal, IRCC might interpret that to mean your son's PR is likewise terminated. I very much DO NOT KNOW the particular details. A qualified lawyer might be able to unravel more details about the internal process and better clarify precisely what your son's status is . . . that is, perhaps IRCC considers your son to be "the subject of a report prepared under subsection 44(1) of the Act," and that was the explicit basis for issuing a one-year card (per Reg 54(2)(b) IRPA Regulations) and thus, also, not someone who is entitled to credit toward the RO for the time he is currently staying in Canada.

Also note, after all, the term for which a PR card is issued has NO bearing on how long an individual remains a PR. A PR issued a brand new five year card can be reported for a RO breach the next time the PR enters Canada (if in fact the PR is short of meeting the RO upon arrival, based on the PR's lack of presence during the five years preceding that day). A PR issued and delivered a new PR card could have PR status terminated (for any of the applicable statutory grounds) the next month.

Overall it is my impression that your son benefited from a decision to NOT make a RO determination on his PR card application. Whether that was intentional or not, I cannot know with confidence. Indeed, I am far from certain that is your son's status. It is just my impression. As noted, IRCC's records may have him designated as "the subject of a report prepared under subsection 44(1) of the Act."

That is, it may be a gift best not challenged. But, perhaps, it is a situation which still poses some or even much risk.

ALSO NOTE: I cannot second guess the import of the Minister's Counsel's comments. Obviously, if your son's case is not definitively tied to yours, its status would be totally irrelevant in a status conference for your case.

If you have a lawyer, which you probably should, best to ask the lawyer.

Otherwise, frankly, it is likely both you and your son are in situations dependent on the exercise of FAVOURABLE discretion . . . situations in which it is better to look for ways to persuade IRCC you should be allowed to keep status based on positive reasons, based on a positive impression about you, RATHER than challenging IRCC decisions. IRCC can be remarkably lenient. The IAD can be remarkably lenient. But they do NOT have to be lenient.
 
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