Seeking advice for spousal sponsorship!

[DreamsOfCanada]

Hi Everybody!

I'm currently in Alberta under a single-entry visitor visa (expires in late Aug-2013) living with my sweetheart. We met through the internet many years ago, and we met in person for the first time this past month of May and have been living together happily ever since. We want to get married asap, and we are trying to figure out how we could stay together in Canada. I have been researching online while he's at work, and am not sure what to do! I'll explain:

1. I don't know if I should pick inland or outland. While outland would be hard because I would have to go back to my country (Mexico) and wait over a year living in solitude while it's processing, (also is it true he needs to fly here for an interview if so?) I have read a number of inland horror stories where it can take two full years to receive a final decision, during which time I cannot work to help with our expenses, nor travel together outside of the country (and we both love to travel and really looked forward to it). If I'm already a visitor in Canada can I still go back and apply from Mexico after getting married here (if I go that route)? Or will the CIC official go "Why did you not apply inland if you were already here?" and reject me just because of that fact.

2. Also, regarding the so-called “Open work permit” in an inland application, I am totally confused. The CIC website has some very confusing information about who is eligible for this:
cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=177&t=17

I do see that on that webpage it says: “5. You have a temporary resident permit valid for at least six months” however my visitor visa only has 2.5 months left! Even though it was originally a 6 month visa. Does this mean that I am not eligible for this? Nowhere on that list does it say anything like: “You are eligible if you have applied for spousal sponsorship and your sponsor is a Canadian citizen” or anything like that. Yet, so many people here who applied for spousal sponsorship seem to keep mentioning their open work permits, as if that fact alone made them eligible! How did they do that? What is the real deal on open work permits in inland applications?

3. Another question I have is, does anybody know if the first stage approval makes it easy to get an Alberta driver's license? Will I be unable to drive until I get the full PR, more than a year later? I learned about International Driver's Permits, but the insurance on them is insane (about $1,500 a month!) and besides I'd have to go back to Mexico to get one anyway (That's what I was told).


4. Another big concern I have is the following. We are going to get married without our parents knowing (gay marriage), quite simply because both sides are too conservative/religious for it! We don't want to be disowned. How hard would it be to explain this to the CIC? (by the way, we are both in our late 20's).


5. Another thing is, my mate does not have an actual rental agreement for his house, he simply shares a house with the owner, and he pays a monthly fee for this. Is this a problem and if so, how to fix it?


6. For the CIC, what does “place of residence” mean exactly? The thing is, we live in a tiny town, and since my career is in the IT industry, I may have to work in the nearest big city, 30 minutes drive away, or possibly have to live away in a major city 3 hours away and come visit him on the weekends. Would this be an issue? Or will I have to ruin my career and just grab whatever low-paying job I can find locally, in order to satisfy the CIC about living together as a couple? We have long term plans to move out together in a few years, but he has some debt to pay first & he needs to save up some money before we can do that.

I don't know if this is true, nor do I have any personal views on this, but... from what I've been reading online, it's starting to seem to me like the mission of a CIC immigration official is to try hard and find an excuse to not let someone immigrate, instead of trying to do a balanced assessment! Is this really the way it is?

Some more info: He has a good paying (but tough) non-skilled job, he's never been on welfare, and neither of us have ever been in trouble with the law in any country. Also, I have never overstayed in Canada, and neither of us have any medical conditions, past marriages or kids.

Any advice of any kind will be EXTREMELY appreciated!!!
Thanks in advance!

 

[Isometry]

I can only give info on a few of these:

1. Keep in mind that you can apply outland while inside of Canada. If you apply inland, you don't have the right of appeal and if you have to leave Canada and get denied re-entry, your application is abandoned. If you apply inland, you may be eligible for an open work permit after first stage approval (currently taking 6 months). Either way, if you want to stay in Canada you'll have to extend/renew your visa.

4. You're not the only ones in that situation. Explain why, provide evidence if possible, and show them that friends/other relatives DO know about your relationship, where possible.

5. This is probably not a problem as far as the CIC is concerned, but it's generally a bad idea to have no written agreement like that. He should ask the owner to put their current arrangement in writing.

6. Not sure, but I *think* that sounds okay. Lots of people have a similar arrangement--hell, my my husband's currently "up north" working on something-or-other in the AB oilsands! He does 2 weeks there, 1 week here, and we still consider ourselves to be living together, and I know lots of other people (including half my coworkers!) who have similar situations.

The CIC is generally okay as far as how they assess people. They just want to see relationships looking as real as possible, but from our side it can be tricky to find hard evidence of things that we know are true. In your case, I'd be worried about the time line--if you only met in person last month, and are getting married right away, you'll want to explain that. The fact that you've known each other online for a long time is a good mitigating factor, especially if you have any kind of chat logs/emails/etc going back.

Good luck!

 

[sariss]

1: Wait times are approximately the same for you - outland sponsorship approval is about 1 month, while your assessment is about 13 months. Inland, sponsorship approval is 6 months, and the second step is 8 months. The upside of inland is you can live here. The downside is if you are denied, you have no ability to appeal. You need to be REALLY sure that you don't think they will think your relationship isn't genuine. Outland is the safer bet, in my opinion. However because you are from a country that requires a visa to enter, it is up to you. I was lucky enough that my husband came from a visa-exempt country so while we applied outland, he stayed in Canada with me.

2. I am unsure of how the open work permits work. I thought at one point that you sent an application for open work permit in with an indland application and you could work after sponsor is approved. Maybe this has changed?

3. Here is info re: Alberta licensing: http://www.servicealberta.ca/drivers_licence.cfm It looks like you need to be a PR before being eligible. "(Note: To obtain an Alberta driver’s licence or identification card you must provide proof that you are lawfully entitled to live in Canada and that you live in Alberta. And if you are new to the province, you must apply for your Alberta driver’s licence within 90 days of moving here.)"

4. Simply explain your situation in as much detail as possible. Ensure that other friends and relatives are present (if not, explain that as well).

5. I believe they only really care about rental agreements if you two are living together and sharing a rental agreement.

6. This one I'm not sure about. I think it's ok, but honestly am not sure.

CIC is a little critical on things. Unfortunately there is a LOT of marriage fraud, and the countries with the highest refusal rates have the most fraud that has been caught. I am, however unsure of Mexico's refusal rates... maybe someone else will know. Just make sure you have AS MUCH information as you can have to show you are genuine.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

Hi

Only having just met in person in May, quickly getting married and applying for sponsorship and being from a non-visa exempt country is going to raise red flags for CIC. I'm not saying this to scare you but to make you aware that the burden of proving that your relationship is genuine will be that much greater for you.

1. Given what I said above, I would advise outland because of the appeal option. You can remain in Canada the entire time provided you extend your visitor visa.

2. If you apply inland, you can submit an OWP app with your PR app. Once you receive sponsor approval around the 6 month mark, the OWP will be activated and you will be able to work. There are no other requirements for the OWP in this situation, you can apply based solely on the fact that you have submitted an inland PR app.

3. Don't know

4. Understandable, even to CIC. Just explain it and as someone above mentioned, make sure to have other family and friends at the wedding. Having none there will be another red flag.

5. Not necessary

6. Usually where you live most of the time. If you lived in a different city for 5 days of the week, CIC will most likely consider that as your place of residence.

 

[suzanne_m]

My husband got his driver's license before he got his PR. He had to send for the equivalent of a driver's abstract from Mexico, and have it officially translated, and then he wrote his written driver's test and got his learner's license. Because he could prove that he had a valid license from Mexico, he was able to apply for his class 5 learners immediately. It took him a few tries, but he got it. We helped his friend do the same.

 

[amikety]

5. Yes, get a written agreement. If not, they may consider the man he is living with his common-law partner and not in a relationship with you. He can download a free rental/roommate agreement from the internet. Yes, that could really happen. The Mexico City VO is off their rocker that much.

Getting married during your first meeting is a bad, bad, bad idea.

You should consider contacting gsize for additional advice for a Mexican applicant. Especially if your boyfriend isn't also Mexican...... I'm not saying the Mexico VO is racist, but I am saying they have some racist employees.

 

[DreamsOfCanada]

5. Yes, get a written agreement. If not, they may consider the man he is living with his common-law partner and not in a relationship with you. He can download a free rental/roommate agreement from the internet. Yes, that could really happen. The Mexico City VO is off their rocker that much.

Getting married during your first meeting is a bad, bad, bad idea.

You should consider contacting gsize for additional advice for a Mexican applicant.

Hi and thanks for your reply,

Oh, not to worry, the owner of the house is married, his wife works in a nearby city and visits him every weekend. My mate just happens to live at this house too, being a lifelong friend of this couple's grown-up children.

Is it really that simple, to just use whatever form downloaded from the internet? Is this legal and valid in Canada for a rental agreement?

As for getting married during the first real life meeting: if a few months is too little, then what would be an acceptable timeframe to get married? It would not be easy for me to leave the country and come back at a later time to get married, because to get another visitor visa I would have to get another letter from an employer (which means I'd have to get a professional job again, if only just to fulfill this requirement). Wouldn't the CIC officer keep this in mind when determining whether we got married "to soon" (whatever that means to the CIC)? Or, are you saying we should get married in Mexico? And if so, when should that happen? I just don't know what is the expectation of a CIC officer regarding time of marriage. We've known each other for almost 10 years over the internet, and although initially we were just friends, we have enough emails and chatlogs to prove our communication. You make it sound like having had an internet relationship by itself instantly discredits our relationship, is this really how CIC officers think?

gsize? Sorry, is this a forum member?

 

[DreamsOfCanada]

My husband got his driver's license before he got his PR. He had to send for the equivalent of a driver's abstract from Mexico, and have it officially translated, and then he wrote his written driver's test and got his learner's license. Because he could prove that he had a valid license from Mexico, he was able to apply for his class 5 learners immediately. It took him a few tries, but he got it. We helped his friend do the same.

Hi and thanks for your response,

Did he do this before or after getting the first stage approval? Also, in order to get his alberta driver's license, was he required to provide a utility bill with his name on it as proof of residence? If not, how did he prove his residence? I asked at the local office, and was told I needed to provide this. Or are you in a different province with different requirements?

 

[suzanne_m]

hi there!!

We live in Edmonton.

He requested his driver's history from Mexico, and sent that into have it officially translated.
Once that was done, he went to the registry office with this:

- banking mail (to confirm his residency). You can use anything that has your name and address on it
- the original copies of his license and driver's history
- the translated copies
- his work permit (as proof that he is valid in Canada)

Then they let him write the written test and he passed it. Then he scheduled the drivers test, and he passed it on the 2nd time.

 

[amikety]

Hi and thanks for your reply,

Oh, not to worry, the owner of the house is married, his wife works in a nearby city and visits him every weekend. My mate just happens to live at this house too, being a lifelong friend of this couple's grown-up children.

Is it really that simple, to just use whatever form downloaded from the internet? Is this legal and valid in Canada for a rental agreement?

As for getting married during the first real life meeting: if a few months is too little, then what would be an acceptable timeframe to get married? It would not be easy for me to leave the country and come back at a later time to get married, because to get another visitor visa I would have to get another letter from an employer (which means I'd have to get a professional job again, if only just to fulfill this requirement). Wouldn't the CIC officer keep this in mind when determining whether we got married "to soon" (whatever that means to the CIC)? Or, are you saying we should get married in Mexico? And if so, when should that happen? I just don't know what is the expectation of a CIC officer regarding time of marriage. We've known each other for almost 10 years over the internet, and although initially we were just friends, we have enough emails and chatlogs to prove our communication. You make it sound like having had an internet relationship by itself instantly discredits our relationship, is this really how CIC officers think?

gsize? Sorry, is this a forum member?

You will probably not like this reply. I am not trying to be mean, but realistic based on what I know about immigration. Keep in mind, a stranger will be deciding your fate. I am also a stranger, so I will tell you what I see from the outside looking in based on the information you have provided. I am not making judgments about your relationships (In fact, I don't doubt the sincerity at all and I wish you and your partner the best, a long happy life together) but I am going to warn you strongly of the pitfalls now.

gsize is a forum member sponsoring his Mexican spouse. He will open your eyes - and I mean peel your eyelids from your eyeballs about the process.

1) If his wife isn't living with him, that doesn't help. In fact, it makes it look more suspicious in my opinion. He needs a rental agreement of some sort. If the landlord decides not to enforce it and they keep going as is, that's fine, but he should have the legal agreement for his own protection as well as proof of living arrangments.

2) Yes, it's that simple. You can google a free rental agreement and print it off. If you're living with him as a visitor, you can also sign one. <~~~~ That is a good thing and proof of cohabitation!

3) My advice here is 6 months at least. A year or more is better. I understand you may not be able to do that.... so you will need to decide what is best....... just understand this: Your file has a lot of red flags. Getting married quickly after the first meeting. Your partner "lives with" another man who has a "wife" that doesn't reside there (weekends is just visiting). Your families don't know about each other fully - looks to CIC like you have something to hide...... On top of that, unfortunately you're coming from a country that has a reputation of immigration fraud with CIC (sorry, I'm not trying to insult you or your country, but your countrymen have done you a serious disservice with CIC by lying and cheating the system in the past). You have 'evidence' of an ongoing internet relationship, which is easy enough to fake. You have no trips together, no serious cohabitation, etc. Viewed from the eyes of a visa officer - someone that doesn't know you or your partner and has the job of determining if your relationship is genuine based on the evidence you provide - your file right now is highly suspect. I am sorry, but it is the truth. If you apply with things "as is" I am sincerely worried for you.

You need to be careful if you present communication of your friendship. You need to be very clear you were just friends at the time. Do not confuse CIC here. If they feel you are confusing them or trying to lie about the length of your romantic relationship, it's an easy rejection. Also, this isn't nearly as important as proving you are in a romantic relationship ("Adult interndependant relationship"). You may want to include a screen shot of emails saved over the years as friends to prove you were friends before hand (with "EMAILS FROM FRIENDSHIP BEFORE ROMANCE" written hugely on the page) but little more. I would show you were friends, just make sure it's 110% clear it is separate from the romance.

Internet isn't your problem. In fact, from what I see, that's the least of your issues. Please, for your own sake, push aside your pride. It is very hard to be judged by CIC and can be humbling and humilating at times. It's the worst part of the process in my opinion. (Worse than the waiting, I am living with my spouse in Canada, so my viewpoint is limited.) However, it is part of the process. When sponsoring a spouse, we must provide proof of an ongoing genuine relationship and the IO must make a judgment based on the evidence we provide (as well as an interview if you have one).

Question: If you're a "professional" why aren't you looking into NAFTA? NAFTA work visas are for qualified professionals and are easier to get than a regular work permit. All you need is a valid job offer for a NAFTA qualifying position. The NAFTA work visa would allow you to remain in Canada as a worker. You could live with your partner, get married if you wish or wait. Then you can also potentially qualify to immigrate independantly through CEC or PNP, so you don't have to worry about "proving" your relationship to anyone. (Or your partner can sponsor you later if things work better that way.)

 

[DreamsOfCanada]

You will probably not like this reply. I am not trying to be mean, but realistic based on what I know about immigration. Keep in mind, a stranger will be deciding your fate. I am also a stranger, so I will tell you what I see from the outside looking in based on the information you have provided. I am not making judgments about your relationships (In fact, I don't doubt the sincerity at all and I wish you and your partner the best, a long happy life together) but I am going to warn you strongly of the pitfalls now.

While I can't say this was easy to stomach, I must thank you for this useful advice, it's just what we need to know so we can improve our chances as much as possible.

gsize is a forum member sponsoring his Mexican spouse. He will open your eyes - and I mean peel your eyelids from your eyeballs about the process.

I looked over some of his posts briefly, I see his case was rejected and still waiting for an appeal to process, after 4 years!!! Though I was unable to find any other info about his particular case... Maybe he had a giant red flag of some kind? Do you know which were his red flags?

If his wife isn't living with him, that doesn't help. In fact, it makes it look more suspicious in my opinion. He needs a rental agreement of some sort. If the landlord decides not to enforce it and they keep going as is, that's fine, but he should have the legal agreement for his own protection as well as proof of living arrangments.
Yes, it's that simple. You can google a free rental agreement and print it off. If you're living with him as a visitor, you can also sign one. <~~~~ That is a good thing and proof of cohabitation!

While it sounds really silly to imagine the CIC would suspect the landlord is his common-law partner, I'll take no chances. We'll look into putting that rental agreement in writing, as well as get something for myself. Good tip !

just understand this: Your file has a lot of red flags

A: What does it mean when a file has a red flag(s)? I mean, is having even 1 red flag "one red flag too many", or is there a maximum acceptable number of them?
B: Does the CIC take decisions based on suspicions alone?

You have no trips together

We live near Letbbridge but we literally met at a convention in Edmonton, and we have pictures of that. We also went to Calgary about 3 weeks later, and we have pictures of that as well. Both tourism trips. (we also went to a demolition derby in a nearby town but we didn't take any pictures there with us in them). And we plan to keep going out while I'm still here, it's simply what we like to do. Even if I have to leave in August, we still have plans for meeting up in places in the United States next year.

My advice here is 6 months at least. A year or more is better. I understand you may not be able to do that

I just wonder if the CIC officer will understand too.

On top of that, unfortunately you're coming from a country that has a reputation of immigration fraud with CIC (sorry, I'm not trying to insult you or your country, but your countrymen have done you a serious disservice with CIC by lying and cheating the system in the past).

Yes, I know... in mid 2009 Mexico was still visa-exempt... but not anymore after that... Although I found out today that Canada's ambassador to Mexico said in Jan-2013 that Mexico could become visa-exempt as soon as next year (2014). Still nothing written in stone though.

If you apply with things "as is" I am sincerely worried for you

I learned recently that sponsored spouses need to live together for 2 years after receiving PR (which itself takes over a year to get, so 3+ years), surely this should be enough to dissuade scammers? I mean seriously why would anyone live 3 years with someone they don't love. -_-

Your partner "lives with" another man who has a "wife" that doesn't reside there

Are you completely sure this would be an issue, even with rental agreements? I mean, the owner of the house is just your average old family man, he had kids with his wife, kids then grew up and left, and now the house has empty rooms that he can rent. I mean he's like 60 years old!

Your families don't know about each other fully - looks to CIC like you have something to hide

Well yes, clearly we will be hiding a gay marriage to our families... The CIC will know that in writing. Would that still be an issue?

You need to be very clear you were just friends at the time. Do not confuse CIC here. If they feel you are confusing them or trying to lie about the length of your romantic relationship, it's an easy rejection.. ...emails saved over the years as friends to prove you were friends before hand (with "EMAILS FROM FRIENDSHIP BEFORE ROMANCE" written hugely on the page)

Thank you for this very important tip, I had not thought this could be construed as misrepresentation.

Please, for your own sake, push aside your pride. It is very hard to be judged by CIC and can be humbling and humilating at times. It's the worst part of the process in my opinion.

I'll prepare myself for the worst, I'm literally expecting to deal with an officer who does not care AT ALL about us, and probably is in need of fulfilling a rejection quota or something... But that is not going to stop us!

Question: If you're a "professional" why aren't you looking into NAFTA? NAFTA work visas are for qualified professionals and are easier to get than a regular work permit. All you need is a valid job offer for a NAFTA qualifying position.

I don't have any qualifications for any of the NAFTA eligible occupations, my career isn't listed.

Thank you and I hope to hear back from you!

hi there!!

We live in Edmonton.

He requested his driver's history from Mexico, and sent that into have it officially translated.
Once that was done, he went to the registry office with this:

- banking mail (to confirm his residency). You can use anything that has your name and address on it
- the original copies of his license and driver's history
- the translated copies
- his work permit (as proof that he is valid in Canada)

Then they let him write the written test and he passed it. Then he scheduled the drivers test, and he passed it on the 2nd time.

Oh, I didn't know a banking mail would work! I was told only utility bills (water, gas, power) with my actual name on them were acceptable! But unlike your husband I don't have a work permit, but I have a valid visitor visa.

 

[amikety]

There is no set number of red flags and they differ by Visa Office too. Most couples have at least 1 item that can construed as a red flag if not explained up front. (I. E., estranged from your parents, if you don't explain it, it will seem odd to the IO that you didn't invite them to the wedding.) There is no minmium/maximum here. The red flags are there and it's up to the judgement of the officer to decide if they are worth investigating with an interview or additional documents. If the IO has questions about the red flags, they will request an interview before making a final decision on a file. (They only reject without an interview for things like criminal inadmissability.)

That whole common-law thing can be tricky. Manila VO is the worst about it - they frequently decide people are common law or not despite the evidence put forth. It's best to have legal written agreements in place for proof of your boyfriend/husband's relationship with his landlord is strictly as a landlord. Hopefully it won't be an issues, especially if you tackle it straightforward.

Any trips before the relationship began aren't "romantic getaways" that CIC is looking for. You can include some pictures from them - just make sure to make it very clear these are from before the romantic relationship began. You are only trying to show you were friends before embarking on the romance.

I suggest gsize because he went through Mexico VO originally. He has never shared any red flags with me, so I can't comment on that part.

As far as why some people would live with someone they don't love and pretend for 3 years...... there's several reasons actually. Some people are just that pathologically instable. Others are just that desperate to get out of their home country and into Canada. If you lived in a country where you had few rights, your religion was outlawed, and you were reguarly threatened or beaten by the religious police, you may be desperate to lie your way into Canada too (and couldn't get in as a refugee for whatever reason). Also, having a Canadian passport (being a citizen) gives significant pay raises to workers in Dubai. I've heard from some of these men that a Canadian passport can double or triple their yearly income. So then it's a matter of greed. It's heartbreaking, especially when there's kids involved, but it does happen and will always happen - no matter how tight Canada gets. (For the record, all the guys I know who want to get a Canadian passport for Dubai are doing it properly through skilled worker channels.)

As far as hiding the relationship from your family - it will depend on the IO who reviews your file. It's impossible for me to tell you 100%. I had a similar issue - I am estranged from most of my family. In the forms, it asks if your family attended and why not if they didn't. I wrote a separate statement for all my forms with additional information numbered by form, then 1, 4, 7, etc for the questions that needed additional information. On that statement, I wrote 3 lines about my family and left it at that. If your family is very religious and will reject you because of this, definitely include that. The IOs are familiar with these issues - just make sure to explain them.

It sounds to me like your ambassador also has a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. He's blowing bubbles out his......... ahem. Canada's trends are to increase the number of countries requiring a visa. Immigration in Canada is barely pulling its own weight, so CIC is very interested in tightening things up to increase the positive economic effects. That's the point of most immigration programs - make Canada richer. Family class and Refugees are exceptions. Not to mention the pressure the USA keeps on Canada to secure the border. It's estimated more contraband comes in through the US-Canada border than through the US-Mexican border because it's heavily populated, lots of dual citizens, and no visa requirements. There are towns in Quebec where the border to the USA is simply a row of flowerpots. Very unsecure, so the USA has been hooping and hollaring about it for some time. (I am American, if you can't tell.) (Btw, a lot of Canadians seem to think all Americans speak Spanish. I've had so many demand I speak Spanish on the spot......I'm like wtf, I took FRENCH in school!)

Btw, once you are legally married & have your marriage certificate, your husband can add you on his healthcare. If you wait the 2 weeks or so it takes to get the card, you can send in a photocopy of the healthcare card - a visitor can only get one through their spouse. It will also allow you to see the doctor (obviously). To my knowledge, Alberta is the only province that does this! (I included my healthcare card on a page with my driver's license and my spousal benefits card.)