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Ponga

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Spotted this on another immigration website's forum and found it shocking, to say the least. The fact that it was from a very experienced/accredited immigration lawyer makes it so.

This reply was to a person asking if they would have trouble entering Canada with an expired PR card. Card had been expired for ~ 6 months and the poster clearly did not meet the R.O.:

Answer-
"As a permanent resident, you must reside in Canada for at least 2 years in a 5-year period. Since you did not comply with this obligation, you have lost your permanent resident status. Therefore, if you decide to land in Canada now, you will not be able to enter the country as a permanent resident."
---

There was nothing in the original post that indicated the PR had lost, or renounced their status.

I won't disclose the website, or the lawyers identity, but...this can't be true! It's a post from a few years ago and the forum has very senior members that are also on these forums.

So the question is -
Why do we seem to trust the majority of information/opinions from people here that, unless disclosed, are NOT immigration lawyers, consultants, etc.? Most of us `seem' to be regular people that have learned/gleaned our limited information and are offering to help others...even when we get it wrong.
 
Spotted this on another immigration website's forum and found it shocking, to say the least. The fact that it was from a very experienced/accredited immigration lawyer makes it so.

This reply was to a person asking if they would have trouble entering Canada with an expired PR card. Card had been expired for ~ 6 months and the poster clearly did not meet the R.O.:

Answer-
"As a permanent resident, you must reside in Canada for at least 2 years in a 5-year period. Since you did not comply with this obligation, you have lost your permanent resident status. Therefore, if you decide to land in Canada now, you will not be able to enter the country as a permanent resident."
---

There was nothing in the original post that indicated the PR had lost, or renounced their status.

I won't disclose the website, or the lawyers identity, but...this can't be true! It's a post from a few years ago and the forum has very senior members that are also on these forums.

So the question is -
Why do we seem to trust the majority of information/opinions from people here that, unless disclosed, are NOT immigration lawyers, consultants, etc.? Most of us `seem' to be regular people that have learned/gleaned our limited information and are offering to help others...even when we get it wrong.

Regarding the post by a lawyer:

If the individual addressed has lost PR status, having lost it due to a failure to comply with the PR Residency Obligation, the lawyer is correct, that individual will not be able to enter the country as a PR. It is not clear from what is posted here what information the lawyer may have had that showed the individual had actually lost PR status. But, the lawyer says they have lost status, and assuming that is true, that the individual lost PR status, they are not a PR and cannot enter Canada as a PR.

I see that the way the post is framed suggests it could be interpreted to say that just the fact of having breached the RO means that PR status is lost. We know that proposition would be incorrect. There is no doubt of that. This is so clearly the case I am highly skeptical that is what the lawyer meant to say. But, to be clear, if that is what the lawyer meant, the lawyer is clearly wrong. Happens.

I am highly skeptical of that interpretation.

In particular: if the lawyer's view was premised on the proposition PR status was lost just by the fact the PR failed to comply with the RO and did not have a valid PR card, again that would be clearly erroneous, there is no doubt about that. This is so clear, so well-known and understood, it is simply NOT likely that is what the lawyer meant.

(If that was the case, there would never be a PR TD issued for a PR in breach of the RO based on H&C reasons. There is no process for a Foreign National, which is what a former PR is, that is, when a PR has lost PR status they are then a FN, for them to apply for reinstatement of PR status, based on H&C reasons or otherwise. This is just one example among scores which illustrate that it is for sure not the case that a PR loses status by virtue of being in breach and not in possession of a valid PR card, not without a formal adjudication terminating status.)

Why the lawyer otherwise (which is my guess) believed or assumed or concluded the individual being addressed had already lost PR status is not readily discernible from what is shared here, and is undoubtedly specific to that case.

Thus, my guess is that the reference to "Since you did not comply with this obligation . . ." is a reference to WHY the PR lost status, not the process or decision actually terminating status. And that to the extent the post is ambiguous or glosses over the steps leading to the loss of status, that is what happens when there is too much focus on being brief and not enough on being clear.

Or, the lawyer got it wrong. Happens. Judges too. All of us. Me far more often than I like.

Beyond that, I do not think an effort to further explain this particular statement is worthwhile. While we cannot know all the procedural details and possible nuances in PoE examinations of PRs who are in breach of the RO, enough of the process is definitely known, FOR SURE, to know that unless a PR has already lost PR status, they are statutorily entitled to enter Canada and will not be denied entry at a PoE (assuming they can be positively identified as a Canadian PR).

Note: being able to document authorization to enter Canada sufficient to get approval to board commercial transportation destined for Canada is a separate issue.​


Procedural Observation:

To be clear: the PR Residency Obligation is NOT self-enforcing.

Moreover, the inadmissibility of a PR based on other grounds is similarly not self-enforcing. To lose PR status for inadmissibility requires either:
-- a visa office decision denying a PR TD application based on a breach of the RO, or​
-- an enforceable Removal/Departure Order​

A Removal/Departure Order against a PR can be issued by a Minister's Delegate reviewing a valid-in-law 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility that is based on a breach of the RO, which may arise out of a PoE examination or an inland Domestic Network referral for a RD (such as a CPC referral to local office when an applicant for a new PR card is not in RO compliance).

Otherwise, a Removal/Departure Order against a PR for inadmissibility can be issued only by the Immigration Division following a hearing (this is the procedure required for PRs who are allegedly inadmissible for serious criminality or misrepresentation).

If the Removal/Departure Order is appealable (not all are, although those based on RO noncompliance are), it is not enforceable until the period for making an appeal has past, and if an appeal is made it is not enforceable pending the appeal.
 
So the question is -
Why do we seem to trust the majority of information/opinions from people here that, unless disclosed, are NOT immigration lawyers, consultants, etc.? Most of us `seem' to be regular people that have learned/gleaned our limited information and are offering to help others...even when we get it wrong.

Why do we seem to trust the majority of information/opinions from people here that, unless disclosed, are NOT immigration lawyers, consultants, etc.?

Not sure who here trusts what or how much, but I am far from alone among those who generally approach posts skeptically, and all posts critically, and expect my posts to be approached skeptically and critically, and repeatedly express cautions and caveats. For example, I repeatedly caution anyone and everyone against relying on or trusting personal advice in this or any other similar forum. With some exceptions, generally for what is more or less obvious. Should be no controversy or doubt, for example, about advice to follow the rules if in doubt, and otherwise, yep, follow the rules.

Among the tools the critical thinker employs is distinguishing information from opinion. The distinction between these is critical. Sure, more than a few commentators will fudge and state things as if it is information, when they are actually expressing an opinion. Real information can be cross-checked or verified in other sources. And those of us who make a concerted effort to get things right will cross-check one another here; I am not alone among those who appreciate being corrected or challenged, always appreciative of clarification.

It can be harder to further distinguish reasonable inferences or conclusions from unfounded opinions. One of the reasons my posts go long is that I make an effort to share the work, the rationale underlying inferences and conclusions. This is to help readers judge the reasoning for themselves and thus the validity of the inferences and conclusions.

There is for sure a lot of untrustworthy information, opinion, and advice in this forum. For example, there is no shortage here, throughout the forum, of utterly unreliable statements, some explicit, many indirect, in the form "I did X and it was OK, so it will be OK for you." No, no, no. Maybe it will be, by chance, but what happens to one person does NOT illuminate what is even typical, let alone likely, let alone what will for sure happen, and does NOT necessarily illuminate the rule or even a common procedure, and it is far, far more common there are additional it-depends factors which will affect the outcome in any given individual's case.

For how blatantly unfounded such reasoning (or more to the point, a lack of reasoning) is, that is matched and perhaps exceeded by how common it is here. Unfortunately.

In contrast, there are a number of forum participants who make a concerted effort to get things right, many of us willing to invest the time and effort to do the homework and get things as right as we can, remaining open to clarification and correction. Like bodies of information generally, much of what we sometimes refer to as the conventional wisdom here is based on literally years of following and sorting and cross-checking and refining of information, a process in which a body of information is built up and shared. And continually updated and refined. And from time to time, corrected.

I am probably unusual in regards to how much effort I make to cite and link sources, to primarily focus on information (not opinion), to explain what can be gleaned from various sources and, in particular, to explain the reasoning underlying analytical observations, so that no one need rely on me to be an expert (after all, I am not an expert), but so they can follow the reasoning, and consider and as needed consult my sources. But it is clear there are many others who do the homework in an effort to get things right.

Ahhh . . . The Homework . . . The Sources:

This is where, as some say, the rubber meets the road. For those of us who do the homework, there are plenty of reliable sources, including of course the sources of official information, such as the laws and regulations themselves, but also official sources of information about how the law and rules are applied in actual cases as reported in IAD and Federal Court published decisions.

Unofficial but generally reliable, authoritative sources, which are very useful sources, include:
-- the PDIs IRCC publishes online​
-- the forms, instructions, and guides IRCC provides, most of which are readily accessed online​
-- general information IRCC publishes online​
-- operational manuals, such as the Enforcement Manuals, such as those prescribing procedures and applicable law governing inadmissibility, PoE examinations, writing and reviewing 44(1) Reports, and loss of PR status; see, for example, ENF 3, ENF 4, ENF 5, ENF 6, and ENF 23, among others, linked here: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...ns-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals.html

And anecdotal reports are also very important. These must be approached with much skepticism, but mapping what happens in anecdotal reports into known information about the law and rules and procedures is a critical exercise helping us better understand the processes in practical terms. Thus, for example, even though our access to the law and such is equal in regards to inadmissibility for serious criminality as it is for non-compliance with the RO, there is a steady stream of anecdotal reporting about the experiences non-compliant PRs have in PoE examinations, but very few reports here about being subject to inadmissibility proceedings based on serious criminality. So we have a better and broader grasp of RO enforcement than we do about how it goes in cases involving PRs allegedly inadmissible for serious criminality . . . moreover, because the questions and discussions in the forum are far more often about RO enforcement, participants like me are more often and more thoroughly doing the research, the homework, about this . . . and not so much homework in regards to serious criminality.

It is extremely important to compare, contrast, and cross-check the various sources. Both to help understand what one says based on other sources, and to help identify errors and such, including in IAD and Federal Court decisions (yeah, administrative law judges and Federal Court Justices also make mistakes, hopefully not so much as the rest of us, but it happens).

In any event, there are many ways to assess the credibility of what is posted here. Sometimes, probably a lot of time, we cannot know this or that for sure. And we've suffered our share of trolls. But quite a few of us make the effort to get things right, and the credible versus what is not credible is generally even if not perfectly discernible.
 
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It's when an agency, such as CBSA, doesn't always seem to know their own rules. For example a person with PR status and an expired PR card re-entering Canada.

From ENF 23:

7.8 Examining permanent residents at a POE

When a permanent resident appears at a POE for examination, the officer must confirm that the person is a permanent resident. Officers must remain cognizant of the fact that the Act gives permanent residents of Canada the right to enter Canada at a port of entry once it is established that a person is a permanent resident, regardless of non-compliance with the residency obligation in A28 or the presence of other grounds of inadmissibility.
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It would seem that confirming that the person is in fact a PR, is pretty simple for CBSA. Unless they see in their system that the person has lost their status (voluntary or otherwise), the person before them is in fact still a PR...even with an expired PR card, correct? This would satisfy the requirement in the first sentence of 7.8 above.
 
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Why do we seem to trust the majority of information/opinions from people here that, unless disclosed, are NOT immigration lawyers, consultants, etc.?

Not sure who here trusts what or how much, but I am far from alone among those who generally approach posts skeptically, and all posts critically, and expect my posts to be approached skeptically and critically, and repeatedly express cautions and caveats. For example, I repeatedly caution anyone and everyone against relying on or trusting personal advice in this or any other similar forum. With some exceptions, generally for what is more or less obvious. Should be no controversy or doubt, for example, about advice to follow the rules if in doubt, and otherwise, yep, follow the rules.
My apologies for not expanding upon my question.

I, like many, have benefitted greatly by the `opinions' of members here. I just can't understand why Canadavisa forums are overwhelmingly more active/popular and perhaps trusted, than any other site. Probably a moot point, but...just curious.
 
My apologies for not expanding upon my question.

I, like many, have benefitted greatly by the `opinions' of members here. I just can't understand why Canadavisa forums are overwhelmingly more active/popular and perhaps trusted, than any other site. Probably a moot point, but...just curious.

Varies from time to time, site to site, over the years. A decade ago plus some I was the moderator of one of the other forums which at that time was very active; but after getting my citizenship and tired of dealing with trolls, that was more work than I had time for, and it was time to narrow the scope of my participation anyway. Over time, since then, this forum grew more active.

That said, I don't know about the word "trusted" in this context. Higher profile and activity does not, and in the current online environment probably should not, necessarily correspond to what is considered trustworthy.


It's when an agency, such as CBSA, doesn't always seem to know their own rules. For example a person with PR status and an expired PR card re-entering Canada.

From ENF 23:

7.8 Examining permanent residents at a POE

When a permanent resident appears at a POE for examination, the officer must confirm that the person is a permanent resident. Officers must remain cognizant of the fact that the Act gives permanent residents of Canada the right to enter Canada at a port of entry once it is established that a person is a permanent resident, regardless of non-compliance with the residency obligation in A28 or the presence of other grounds of inadmissibility.
---


It would seem that confirming that the person is in fact a PR, is pretty simple for CBSA. Unless they see in their system that the person has lost their status (voluntary or otherwise), the person before them is in fact still a PR...even with an expired PR card, correct? This would satisfy the requirement in the first sentence of 7.8 above.

I am tempted to dive into the benefits and detriments of the operational manuals; lots of both. The Enforcement Manuals, in particular, continue to be an excellent resource but they are riddled with out-of-date details and have other limitations, not the least of which is the fact they are not official and not binding on IRCC. Meanwhile, IRCC has been migrating to the PDI (Program Delivery Instruction) format but for whatever reason that transition has stalled in regards to enforcement procedures.

The manuals should never be considered gospel. They must be read and understood in context with a wide range of other information, including information in other parts of the same manual as well as other manuals, and especially the actual statutes and regulations, but also very much so what IAD panels and Federal Court Justices have ruled, sometimes applying what is in the manuals while at other times ignoring the manuals, or on occasion rejecting what is said in the manuals.

Nonetheless, the manuals get most of it right, so far as we can discern, and for purposes of what best describes the procedures, what offers a coherent and fairly easy to understand outline of how things work, they have been an excellent resource.

Bringing this to
Officers must remain cognizant of the fact that the Act gives permanent residents of Canada the right to enter Canada at a port of entry once it is established that a person is a permanent resident, regardless of non-compliance with the residency obligation in A28 or the presence of other grounds of inadmissibility.​

Yes, generally it should be easy. Which is why I often remind that for the PR who arrives at the PoE no particular documentation is necessary and that establishing identity is usually enough; so, usually, a passport is enough. A passport establishes the identity of the traveler and CBSA border officials can then confirm the traveler's status in GCMS. Note, however, not everyone is so easily positively identified. PRs without a valid PR card can improve how quickly border officials conclude the traveler is a PR by having and presenting an expired PR card, a copy of their CoPR, presenting a Canadian drivers' license or health card. The easier the traveler makes it for an officer to verify who the traveler is, and the traveler's connection to Canada, the easier and faster the border crossing tends to go.

Note, this does not mean border officials cannot engage in further questioning or investigation, and indeed they have very wide discretion to question and search and investigate any traveler applying for permission to physically enter Canada. Including travelers who are Canadians, including Canadian citizens as well as Canadian PRs.

What it means is that CBSA cannot turn a PR back, cannot deny entry, so long as the traveler is identified as a PR.

Meanwhile, yeah stuff happens, so odd things sometimes occur. I makes mistakes. You make mistakes. Border officers make mistakes. We have fun. Or, sometimes, something other than fun.
 
My apologies for not expanding upon my question.

I, like many, have benefitted greatly by the `opinions' of members here. I just can't understand why Canadavisa forums are overwhelmingly more active/popular and perhaps trusted, than any other site. Probably a moot point, but...just curious.

There used to be another forum around 10 years ago that was the main place. It went away (can't remember why). There were a few different places to go but I think most went here - I think mostly because this forum was the easiest to use.