+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Residential Address Abroad?

Flandernss

Hero Member
Mar 5, 2019
308
52
Hi everyone,

And thanks in advance.

Let's assume a PR accepts employment abroad while 30 days short of the 1095 days of physical presence. Some 6 months later, he returns to Canada and for a 45 days vacations, which he uses to file citizenship application before returning to his place of employment abroad.

In the form, would it be a problem if he lists his address abroad as his "residential address"?

I guess that would be ok because as a PR he can still be considered to have a domicile in Canada while having a residence abroad. What do you think?
 

canvan14

Hero Member
May 8, 2014
354
84
Here is my two cents,
As long as the 1095 days are within the 5 year period preceding the application date the PR should be fine.
However, the application might undergo more scrutiny because of the living abroad situation (i.e tax, interview officer might question etc.). Make sure tax is paid for 3 years within the 5 year period. I have seen people who live abroad were grant citizenship in this forum, not sure how long or if there is any complication during the process.
Edit: I just saw your other post where dpenabill touched on the precaution one should take for spending time abroad during the application process which provides more insights.
 
Last edited:

Flandernss

Hero Member
Mar 5, 2019
308
52
Canvan14,

It makes sense. What bugs me is that in THE form for citizenship ("Form CIT 0002") you have two fields for your address in which it is written:
1. "home address (residence in Canada)"
2. "mailing address"

So, it is like you can't actually use your address abroad and you have nothing to put it if you don't rent or own (millenials can't afford to own anything anyway) propriety in Canada.
 

itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
2,250
649
Here is my two cents,
As long as the 1095 days are within the 5 year period preceding the application date the PR should be fine.
However, the application might undergo more scrutiny because of the living abroad situation (i.e tax, interview officer might question etc.). Make sure tax is paid for 3 years within the 5 year period. I have seen people who live abroad were grant citizenship in this forum, not sure how long or if there is any complication during the process.
Edit: I just saw your other post where dpenabill touched on the precaution one should take for spending time abroad during the application process which provides more insights.
Your
Hi everyone,

And thanks in advance.

Let's assume a PR accepts employment abroad while 30 days short of the 1095 days of physical presence. Some 6 months later, he returns to Canada and for a 45 days vacations, which he uses to file citizenship application before returning to his place of employment abroad.

In the form, would it be a problem if he lists his address abroad as his "residential address"?

I guess that would be ok because as a PR he can still be considered to have a domicile in Canada while having a residence abroad. What do you think?
It won’t work, you won’t meet the residential requirement in the scenario you described: you are 30 days short of 1095 days when you move out of Canada , when you move back after 6 months, you are already 210 days short. Even if you stay for 45 days before you submit your application, there’s no way for you to meet that requirement
 

itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
2,250
649
Hi everyone,

And thanks in advance.

Let's assume a PR accepts employment abroad while 30 days short of the 1095 days of physical presence. Some 6 months later, he returns to Canada and for a 45 days vacations, which he uses to file citizenship application before returning to his place of employment abroad.

In the form, would it be a problem if he lists his address abroad as his "residential address"?

I guess that would be ok because as a PR he can still be considered to have a domicile in Canada while having a residence abroad. What do you think?
“as a PR he can still be considered to have a domicile in Canada while having a residence abroad” This is absolutely false with regard to residential requirement: as long as you are not physically in Canada, no matter where your address is, the days won’t count towards your 1095
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
3,018
What bugs me is that in THE form for citizenship ("Form CIT 0002") you have two fields for your address in which it is written:
1. "home address (residence in Canada)"
2. "mailing address"

So, it is like you can't actually use your address abroad and you have nothing to put it if you don't rent or own (millenials can't afford to own anything anyway) propriety in Canada.
Yeah. That's right. Citizenship applicants are required, in item 7 (in CIT 0002 (06-2019), the current version), to provide the address where the applicant actually lives.

And of course it makes total sense that IRCC wants this information. It is a key piece in the whole picture of who the applicant is and the life the applicant is living, which is an important factor to be considered in weighing the veracity of key information directly relevant to the qualifications for citizenship, not the least of which is the applicant's identity and physical presence history, but also for purposes of background screening for criminality or security prohibitions.

Even if the applicant owns or rents a dwelling in Canada the citizenship applicant is required to provide the address where the applicant actually lives . . . NOT the applicant's "domicile." Not an address the applicant believes he or she can use as a residential address. BUT, rather, the address where the applicant is actually residing. To do otherwise is misrepresentation. That is, FRAUD. Common, yes. But a rather steep downside for those who, so to say, do not get away with it.

I do not know what happens if the applicant populates item 7 with a foreign address. A number of forum participants have reported successfully applying for citizenship while living abroad, so it appears IRCC will proceed with processing despite giving a foreign address as place of current residence. (Of course this assumes those applicants provided truthful information about their actual residential address, and thus did not commit fraud.)

I do know that if the applicant is in fact living outside Canada and the applicant uses a Canadian address as his or her home address that is misrepresentation.

I know how to approach this without committing fraud and in a way that IRCC will process the application despite providing a foreign address. But since IRCC apparently expects applicants to actually be residing in Canada when they apply (even though there is no statute or regulation requiring this . . . similar to applications for new PR cards), and to my view applying from IN Canada is so much more prudent, to me it is not worth wandering down that side street.

Is this inconvenient, perhaps problematic, for PRs living abroad and wanting to apply for citizenship? No doubt. Unreasonably so? Since there is a work-around (again, to my view that's a side street worth passing by) and even if IRCC insists an application is NOT complete without a home address in Canada (and thus will not process it; but since a number of forum participants have reported successfully applying for citizenship while living abroad, it appears IRCC will proceed with processing despite a foreign address, again assuming of course those applicants did not commit fraud), an applicant can request (virtually a demand) the application be processed anyway, it is NOT likely a Federal Court will find the current application requirements to be unreasonable.


SOME FURTHER LARGELY TECHNICAL OBSERVATIONS

While the IRCC instructions are more direct for PR card applications, specifically stating that the application must be made IN Canada, the implication for grant citizenship applications is similar to applying for a new PR card in that IRCC expects applicants to be residents of Canada, living in Canada.

There is no statute or regulation requiring actual residence in Canada, at the time of the application or while the application is pending, to be eligible. For either application. For either a new PR card or grant citizenship. So there is no overt enforcement of the instructions (explicit in PR card applications; implicit in citizenship applications). EXCEPT, of course, there is the substantially elevated risk (perhaps even likelihood) of non-routine processing, which typically includes increased scrutiny and longer processing times.

While some may quibble with the policy, it is what it is. How things should work is outside my bailiwick. For me it is difficult enough figuring out and keeping up with how things actually work, at least as best we can given a lack of transparency (dramatically expanded during the Harper government and not rolled back that much since).

Which leads back to this observation: "So, it is like you can't actually use your address abroad and you have nothing to put it if you don't rent or own (millenials can't afford to own anything anyway) propriety in Canada."

Let's be clear:
-- Place of residence is the address where an individual is actually residing, the individual's place of abode
-- "Domicile" and current place of residence are NOT necessarily the same (complicated subject, but for sure, a person's current residential address can be different from his or her domicile).
-- The grant citizenship application does NOT ask for the applicant's "domicile."
-- The grant citizenship application does ask the applicant to provide place of residence address, including
-- -- Current residence address
-- -- Residence address history for previous five years​

Let's also be clear: the applicant is required to provide this information under penalty, including penalties prescribed under the Citizenship Act itself, and potential CRIMINAL penalties.

And, ultimately, while a few may be irked by the way IRCC structures its application forms and instructions, it is hardly any surprise that IRCC makes it inconvenient to apply for either a new PR card or citizenship while living abroad.

As I have oft discussed in this forum, many PRs fudge their information in regards to providing addresses (including the outright fraudulent listing of a home or dwelling owned or leased in Canada as their residential address when in fact that is NOT where they reside), and many appear to get away with this. That it worked does NOT mean it is OK, does not mean that it is not misrepresentation, and does not mean that it is not potentially subject to severe penalties (possibly even a sojourn in secured public housing, the kind with few or no windows). The fact that it may be easy to get away with it is NOT a green light. And, it warrants cautioning, it is quite likely many do NOT get away with it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tankala13

Flandernss

Hero Member
Mar 5, 2019
308
52
DPENABILL,

Thanks for clearing up my confusion of residence and domicile.

Right now, I see two routes of action: 1. the unadvisable "misrepresentation" one I am sure many take and 2. confronting the Form CIT0002's demand for a CANADIAN residential address, risking the mess of having to defend your legal views before a Federal Judge.

However, I fear I am missing something here because in two occasions you alluded to a solution (possibly a 3rd one?):

"I know how to approach this without committing fraud and in a way that IRCC will process the application despite providing a foreign address."

"Since there is a work-around (again, to my view that's a side street worth passing by)"

Could you kindly clarify what "workaround" or "approach" you were referring to?
 

itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
2,250
649
DPENABILL,

Thanks for clearing up my confusion of residence and domicile.

Right now, I see two routes of action: 1. the unadvisable "misrepresentation" one I am sure many take and 2. confronting the Form CIT0002's demand for a CANADIAN residential address, risking the mess of having to defend your legal views before a Federal Judge.

However, I fear I am missing something here because in two occasions you alluded to a solution (possibly a 3rd one?):

"I know how to approach this without committing fraud and in a way that IRCC will process the application despite providing a foreign address."

"Since there is a work-around (again, to my view that's a side street worth passing by)"

Could you kindly clarify what "workaround" or "approach" you were referring to?
Before you waste more time on this, just remember you don’t meet the residency requirement.... all that thinking would be for nothing - it would be like worrying about how to spend the money you don’t have lol
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
3,018
Could you kindly clarify what "workaround" or "approach" you were referring to?
I am not qualified to offer personal advice. For practical reasons not just formalities.

Workaround procedures are inherently personal to the individual, dependent on very specific details.

So no, I am not able to offer more detail about how a person might successfully apply for citizenship AFTER having already moved abroad. And, after all, that itself is a course rife with pitfalls and risks, more than some here recognize let alone concede, and as I have repeatedly noted, not a side street worth my time navigating.

As I acknowledge, it appears (largely based on anecdotal reports in this forum) more than a few have been able to successfully apply for and obtain citizenship while living abroad. It is not so clear just how they accomplished this.

Frankly I am skeptical. Some, sure, perhaps without misrepresenting the address where they reside. More who apply while in Canada but move abroad while the application is pending. In this regard the variables are virtually innumerable.

The situations in which citizenship applicants go abroad to live while the application is pending range from those with compelling temporary reasons to those who were overtly exploiting the Canadian immigration system, with virtually innumerable variations in-between. They range from those with circumstances totally consistent with becoming a Canadian citizen in fact as well as obtaining the legal status of a citizen, who even during the draconian policies under the Harper government often sailed easily and relatively quickly through the process, to those who fit the categorization most targeted by the Harper government, that is those perceived to be applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport or otherwise seeking-a-passport-of-convenience.

I suspect that IRCC still elevates scrutiny and in effect raises the bar some for those perceived to be the latter, those perceived to be applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport or otherwise seeking-a-passport-of-convenience. If the Conservatives form the government after the election this fall, I expect such applicants to once again be subject to significantly more severe scrutiny and perhaps much longer processing timelines. It warrants remembering that prior to adopting a requirement to intend-to-continue-residing-in-Canada (which was promptly repealed when the Liberals formed the government), under Harper's government it appeared that CIC might actually have been deliberately delaying citizenship application processing for such applicants, stalling long enough in some instances for an applicant abroad to breach the PR Residency Obligation thus terminating that individual's eligibility for citizenship and being grounds to deny the application.

As for obtaining relief in the Federal Court, it warrants remembering that there is NO right of appeal in Citizenship applications. PRs denied citizenship can REQUEST leave from the Federal Court, asking the Federal Court to allow judicial review. The number of cases brought by applicants which are even reviewed (most still ending up denied) by the Federal Court these days is a SMALL percentage of the number prior to 2015 (when there was a right of appeal), and even back then the total number per year was a FEW DOZEN at most.

I have no idea how many citizenship applications are being denied these days. A decade ago we would get an annual report which specifically stated the number of applications made, granted, denied, and precisely how many cases resulted in an appeal or application for a Writ of Mandamus, and the outcome of those cases; 2009 was the last year we got that information as the Harper government proceeded to decimate transparency and this is something the Trudeau government has not walked back much. Thousands annually, probably, but at least many hundreds.

Suffice to say that a plan to pursue relief in the Federal Court does not have good odds, neither practically nor statistically; and it warrants observing that statistically the odds are remarkably low.



Concluding reminder regarding "the unadvisable "misrepresentation" one I am sure many take . . ." To be clear, misrepresentation is a crime. Getting caught means at least a five year prohibition. Moreover, people do go to jail for making misrepresentations in their citizenship application. A jail sentence for six months or more is considered "serious criminality," and is grounds for deeming a PR inadmissible, subject to loss of PR status and deportation. Perhaps not many are prosecuted to this extent. The odds? Whatever the odds, the potential consequences are severe . . . not so devastating as, say, a negative outcome playing Russian Roulette, which one can play (if so inclined) confident that the odds are very favourable, at least five to one there will not be a bang, no bloody mess someone else will have to clean up. BUT let's be clear, gambling in general tends to be "unadvisable" (inadvisable). Making material misrepresentations of fact in an application for citizenship, thus at the least hard-wiring grounds for revocation into the most favourable outcome, is rather more serious and dangerous than engaging in inadvisable gambling.
 

Flandernss

Hero Member
Mar 5, 2019
308
52
Dpnabill (and all),

I realized the question, as far as the Form CIT0002 is concerned, is nonsense and was based on mixing up residence and domicile.

In the scenario in question, the application is made from within Canada when the individual returns to complete his 1095 days. Therefore, he must have a residence "in Canada" when submitting his request for citizenship.

Yes, the individual has a job (contract) abroad, so what he will do to have all in order in regards to his citizenship is to submit an update for his residence (the IRCC request, specifically for those who leave abroad "for more than 15 days" to do so) after he leaves Canada again.

It's all clear. Thanks.
 

itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
2,250
649
Dpnabill (and all),

I realized the question, as far as the Form CIT0002 is concerned, is nonsense and was based on mixing up residence and domicile.

In the scenario in question, the application is made from within Canada when the individual returns to complete his 1095 days. Therefore, he must have a residence "in Canada" when submitting his request for citizenship.

Yes, the individual has a job (contract) abroad, so what he will do to have all in order in regards to his citizenship is to submit an update for his residence (the IRCC request, specifically for those who leave abroad "for more than 15 days" to do so) after he leaves Canada again.

It's all clear. Thanks.
You are still missing the point here - you can’t “return to complete” your 1095 days like described in your original post , if you still don’t realize that , you will just waste your time and opportunity to apply for citizenship