Residency Obligations & Renouncing PR Status

[TReimann]

Hello,

I'm really hoping someone on this forum can assist with a very important and time sensitive question. I have tried to contact IRCC several times over the last few weeks, for what I assumed should have been a simple/straight forward answer to a simple/straight forward question. However, the only response that I keep getting back is that IRCC cannot offer any specific counselling, advice or guidance.

I completely understand that IRCC cannot provide counselling to individuals regarding their eligibility,, to ensure that all applicants receive consistent advice, but I was simply looking for someone to confirm some information that is already stated on the canada.ca immigration website, and to point out that the information provided is somewhat inconsistent and ambiguous.

To provide some background...

I am a Canadian Permanent Resident who is currently living in the UK. I lived in Canada for over 30 years (the majority of my life) and relocated to the UK in 2010 for work reasons. I am a UK/German national, and I hold a German passport. I never became a Canadian citizen, because German law does not allow for dual citizenship, and would require me to render my German passport, which I need to keep for several reasons that are too long to go into here.

I have lived in the UK for over eight years now, and my Canadian PR card expired in 2015. Up until recently, I had no issues travelling to Canada as a visitor with my German passport. However, in 2016, Canada introduced the eTA (Electronic Travel Application), which is now required for all non-Canadian/PR travellers. In 2016, my wife and I had booked a trip to Canada, for our annual visit to see family and friends. This time we decided to stop off for a five day visit in Iceland. As my PR card had already expired at that point, I was using only my German passport. At the gate, we were informed about the eTA requirement, and shortly after filling out the application, I was refused by virtue of still holding Canadian PR status. After several visits to the CA embassy in Reykjavik, and many emails/calls to London immigration, we ended up having to fly back to the UK

Since then, I have been told that I have two options:

1. To apply for a PR Travel Document, if I want to retain my Canadian PR status (obviously my preferred choice if possible).
2. To renounce my PR status, so that I can continue to travel to Canada as a visitor.

Having looked a bit deeper into option 1 though, it appears that I no longer meet the residency obligations. It seems to me that I cannot apply for a PRTD because I have not been physically present in Canada for the minimum required days (two years) within the specified five-year time frame. On the website, it clearly states that a person must have been physically present in Canada for a minimum of 730 days within the five (5) years immediately before they can qualify for a PRTD.

Based on the above information, I would assume that my only real option at this point is to renounce my current PR status, unless I plan on returning to Canada, which will not happen for at least another three years.

So finally my question:

If I decide to renounce my PR status (knowing now that I no longer meet the obligations), could this have any impact on the decision to renew my immigration application when I decide return to Canada at a later time? If yes, then it may be worth holding off with any visits to Canada, until I know with certainty whether I plan to return to Canada or not. Also, since the eTA is not required to cross the US/CA border in non-public vehicles, it may be worth flying through the US, and having one of my family members pick me up in Buffalo for now.

Since I no longer meet the residency requirements, I would need to re-apply for immigration one way or the other. If I could at least get some kind of confirmation as to whether or not retaining my expired PR status would make any difference in the immigration application assessment, it would make my current decision so much easier. It seems that IRCC is not able to answer this simple question for me, so any advise would be greatly appreciated?

Thanks
Timo

 

[evdm]

I think either way your best bet is to renounce your PR status.

This would allow you to travel to Canada as a visitor, and should you wish to return to live in Canada you can easily re-apply for status if you qualify under one of the current immigration schemes.

If you go the US-border route then you risk being reported at the border. As a PR you have the right to enter Canada, but a CBSA officer is likely to report you for failing to meet your residency obligation. You do not need a valid PR card to enter Canada, but the officer will need to verify your status with other documents or by looking you up in the systems. You're likely to get the question about how long you've been away from Canada. Once reported, IRCC will take steps to revoke your PR and remove you from Canada. This process would make future applications difficult.

Should you be able to enter Canada without getting reported, you would have to wait at least 2 years in Canada before you apply for a new PR card, or sponsor anyone.

Renouncing your PR now should have no negative effect on future applications. It shows that you are willing to respect the processes and do things above the boards and by the book.

 

[TReimann]

I think either way your best bet is to renounce your PR status.

This would allow you to travel to Canada as a visitor, and should you wish to return to live in Canada you can easily re-apply for status if you qualify under one of the current immigration schemes.

If you go the US-border route then you risk being reported at the border. As a PR you have the right to enter Canada, but a CBSA officer is likely to report you for failing to meet your residency obligation. You do not need a valid PR card to enter Canada, but the officer will need to verify your status with other documents or by looking you up in the systems. You're likely to get the question about how long you've been away from Canada. Once reported, IRCC will take steps to revoke your PR and remove you from Canada. This process would make future applications difficult.

Should you be able to enter Canada without getting reported, you would have to wait at least 2 years in Canada before you apply for a new PR card, or sponsor anyone.

Renouncing your PR now should have no negative effect on future applications. It shows that you are willing to respect the processes and do things above the boards and by the book.

Wow, thanks for the quick reply, this is super helpful! If only IRCC could provide such excellent support.

 

[evdm]

Wow, thanks for the quick reply, this is super helpful! If only IRCC could provide such excellent support.

I'm not a lawyer, nor an employee of IRCC so please don't take this as anything other than my opinion. It's just what I've learned on these boards and from having a basic understanding of the laws.

 

[TReimann]

I'm not a lawyer, nor an employee of IRCC so please don't take this as anything other than my opinion. It's just what I've learned on these boards and from having a basic understanding of the laws.

Thanks! I assumed you weren't a lawyer (or you would be charging for your services), and I know you're definitely not an IRCC employee, after dealing with their support for several weeks

Having said that, what you say makes perfect sense, and is pretty much inline with what I already assumed. I hadn't really considered the potential consequences of US border crossing though, so appreciate you pointing that out.

 

[Bs65]

Although it seems you may have decided already to renounce your PR status due to failing the RO you stated you spent 30 years in Canada through to 2010. Whether part of that was as a minor or adult no idea but just keep in mind that the obvious fact the older anyone gets the harder it can be to qualify for PR again so generally even where people have failed RO often the advice is to renounce as a last option.

As for the land border option there is always an appeal option and as you can gather there no way to predict whether you would or would not be reported although seems you have been lucky so far with visits I guess by using your German passport. Maybe CBSA simply did not delve that much into fact you were a PR and waived you in as a visitor from a visa exempt country .On the other hand applying for an ETA or PRTD would involve a more detailed assessment as people who were PRs 30 plus years ago found out when they applied for an ETA.

 

[ON332982]

Please advice

I stayed for 6 days, and left . I have pr to be expired in June 2018. I have a baby without pr (got TRV visit visa) please advice travel or renounce my pr. I think high chance of getting reported. What are the problems I may face if reported.

 

[TReimann]

Although it seems you may have decided already to renounce your PR status due to failing the RO you stated you spent 30 years in Canada through to 2010. Whether part of that was as a minor or adult no idea but just keep in mind that the obvious fact the older anyone gets the harder it can be to qualify for PR again so generally even where people have failed RO often the advice is to renounce as a last option.

As for the land border option there is always an appeal option .

Thanks! Yes, part of those 30 years was spent in Canada as a minor, but you make a good point that qualification can become harder as one gets older. Still, my assumption would be that I shouldn't have problems to re-qualify as a Canadian PR, having spent the majority of my life living and working in the country?

One question regarding the advice to renounce PR as a last option... if there is no question or doubt that I have failed RO at this time, what other option might there be? Seems to me that renouncing is the only possibility, unless I consider the US land border crossing for visits, which seems to carry its own set of risks.

Timo

 

[evdm]

Thanks! Yes, part of those 30 years was spent in Canada as a minor, but you make a good point that qualification can become harder as one gets older. Still, my assumption would be that I shouldn't have problems to re-qualify as a Canadian PR, having spent the majority of my life living and working in the country?

One question regarding the advice to renounce PR as a last option... if there is no question or doubt that I have failed RO at this time, what other option might there be? Seems to me that renouncing is the only possibility, unless I consider the US land border crossing for visits, which seems to carry its own set of risks.

Timo

You would have to see if you qualify for PR under one of the currently available streams such as Express Entry. This does get more difficult as you get older, because you will need to get as many points as possible to be invited to apply, and age gives you a lot of points. However, so does education in Canada, ability to speak English and French, profession, etc.

See how many points you would get in an EE application here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/crs-tool.asp

then compare it to the lowest scores given for ITAs (the last round you needed more than 456 points to be given an ITA, from: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/express-entry/become-candidate/rounds-invitations.html).

This would give you an idea if you qualify to apply again under this programme.

 

[TReimann]

You would have to see if you qualify for PR under one of the currently available streams such as Express Entry. This does get more difficult as you get older, because you will need to get as many points as possible to be invited to apply, and age gives you a lot of points. However, so does education in Canada, ability to speak English and French, profession, etc.

See how many points you would get in an EE application here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/crs-tool.asp

then compare it to the lowest scores given for ITAs (the last round you needed more than 456 points to be given an ITA, from: https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada/express-entry/become-candidate/rounds-invitations.html).

This would give you an idea if you qualify to apply again under this programme.

Thanks for this, but I'm not sure that this EE programme would be ideal for my situation. It doesn't seem to take into account that I have lived in Canada as a PR for over 30 years, and that I would be re-applying as someone who needed to renounce their original PR status on the account of being out of the country for longer than the minimum required residency obligations.

As you say, this CRS tool is only evaluating based on age, education, skilled profession, and language proficiency. It seems to me that this particular stream is intended for those who are looking to enter Canada for the first time, and who have the right requirements.

 

[zardoz]

Thanks for this, but I'm not sure that this EE programme would be ideal for my situation. It doesn't seem to take into account that I have lived in Canada as a PR for over 30 years, and that I would be re-applying as someone who needed to renounce their original PR status on the account of being out of the country for longer than the minimum required residency obligations.

As you say, this CRS tool is only evaluating based on age, education, skilled profession, and language proficiency. It seems to me that this particular stream is intended for those who are looking to enter Canada for the first time, and who have the right requirements.

If you renounce your PR status, that's exactly what you are doing effectively. There is no credit given for any time before reapplying. You become a "foreign national" and have to start all over again from the beginning. There are NO existing programs that cater to those that used to have PR status and have since lost it.

 

[evdm]

Yes, like @zardoz says, once you renounce your PR you are effectively entering Canada as if it were your first time again, but it might be your only way.

Unfortunately it's the consequence of not maintaining your PR through your residency, or becoming a citizen of Canada (and yes, I'm well acquainted with German rules on dual citizenship).

 

[TReimann]

If you renounce your PR status, that's exactly what you are doing effectively. There is no credit given for any time before reapplying. You become a "foreign national" and have to start all over again from the beginning. There are NO existing programs that cater to those that used to have PR status and have since lost it.

Thanks! Now that's a strong argument for not renouncing ones PR status, and it's exactly the kind of information that seems to be very difficult to obtain officially.

 

[Rob_TO]

Thanks for this, but I'm not sure that this EE programme would be ideal for my situation. It doesn't seem to take into account that I have lived in Canada as a PR for over 30 years, and that I would be re-applying as someone who needed to renounce their original PR status on the account of being out of the country for longer than the minimum required residency obligations.

As you say, this CRS tool is only evaluating based on age, education, skilled profession, and language proficiency. It seems to me that this particular stream is intended for those who are looking to enter Canada for the first time, and who have the right requirements.

Once you renounce your PR status, all your previous time spent in Canada or as a PR will be completely irrelevant to any new application. You will be applying for PR from scratch, same as any other foreign national.

You have no H&C reasons to keep your Canadian PR status, so your only possible way to keep your PR status is to enter via a USA land border, hope you aren't reported for Residency Obligation violation, and then stay inside Canada for 2 straight years without leaving for any reason. If you can't commit to do this, then there is practically no chance for you to keep your current PR status.

Renouncing your PR status is the only way you'll be able to get an eTA approved and fly to Canada directly. As mentioned once you renounce, you'll need to re-apply from scratch under an economic immigration stream if you ever want to re-apply. None of your PR/citizen family in Canada can sponsor you. If you don't qualify under an economic immigration stream (based on your education, work experience, age, etc etc), then realistically you will never be able to live in Canada as a PR again.

 

[Alurra71]

One thing that was never clarified in this post, what citizenship does your wife hold? You said you both like to travel to Canada yearly to visit family and friends. Is she by any chance Canadian? If she is, then we are playing an entirely different ball game here.