As whisperer said, the residency obligation is calculated back five years from the date of application. So if the PR renewal application is signed in 2021, the landing date will not be important. Which also means your saying is incorrect.
Question about RO and PR card Renewal
- Thread starter vdevil786
- Start date
What you are saying is true. It's what this means, with respect to arriving in Canada with a valid PR card:
(i) if they have been a permanent resident for less than five years, that they will be able to meet the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately after they became a permanent resident; i.e., date of landing.
What we have been talking about (or at least so I thought) is the renewal of the PR card, for which the date of landing is not relevant.
(i) if they have been a permanent resident for less than five years, that they will be able to meet the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately after they became a permanent resident; i.e., date of landing.
What we have been talking about (or at least so I thought) is the renewal of the PR card, for which the date of landing is not relevant.
I did some calculations , based on both i.e. Date of Landing and PR card Expiration date , also tomorrow i will ask the immigration lawyer as well as the Citizenship and immigration department and will share in case some one else needs the info.
As Per date of Landing i.e. 03 Dec 2015
03 Dec 2015
14 Days
02 Dec 2016
0 Days
03 Dec 2017
17 days
02 Dec 2018
364 days
03 Dec 2019
344 (Excluding 3 weeks Vacation in August 2020)
03 Dec 2020
Total 739 Days since since First Landing.
As per PR card Expiration Date i.e. 6 Feb 2021
Feb 06 2016
(0 Days)
Feb 06 2017
(0 Days)
Feb 06 2018
(83 days)
Feb 06 2019
(365 Days)
Feb 06 2020
344 Days (Excluding 3 weeks Vacation in August 2020)
Feb 06 2021
Total 791 Days till the PR card Expiration
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If you apply Feb 6/2021, the days from you original landing will drop out of the calculation. So 777 days on that date. The issue is your vacation. Feb 6/2020-Aug 1/202 is 177 days. That would only give you 574 days of residency when you return. On return to Canada (assuming Aug 1- 22...3 weeks) you would only have 102 days left to make up the 730 required for RO by Dec 3/ 2020. It would only be possible to accumulate 676 days before your Dec 3 anniversary of landing. That could pose a problem on entry if the CBSA officer you encounter is a stickler for meeting the rules. RO is calculated from landing date, not PR card expiry.
Edit: based on the Nov 15/2018 date of entry (625 days to Aug 1), 33 additional days and the 102 days until the anniversary date of landing after your return, you should be fine taking you vacation.
Edit: based on the Nov 15/2018 date of entry (625 days to Aug 1), 33 additional days and the 102 days until the anniversary date of landing after your return, you should be fine taking you vacation.
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https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/permanent-residence/card/permanent-resident-determination.html
Less than 5 years as a permanent resident
People who became permanent residents of Canada less than 5 years prior to the date of receipt of the application are governed by subparagraph A28(2)(b)(i). This provision allows new permanent residents to qualify under the residency obligation provided they can meet the 730-day criterion during the first 5-year period immediately after their arrival in Canada.
The PR card renewal is inextricably linked with whether OP has fulfilled his residency requirements, if he hasn't done so how can he renew his PR card?
When he applies for a PR card, he will automatically trigger a calculation of his residency obligations, based on that his PR card application will be rejected or approved.
Now, within what margin they are willing to overlook is a matter of discretion. If it just a matter of days or weeks they may let it pass, but officially he will not have met his residency obligations.
Less than 5 years as a permanent resident
People who became permanent residents of Canada less than 5 years prior to the date of receipt of the application are governed by subparagraph A28(2)(b)(i). This provision allows new permanent residents to qualify under the residency obligation provided they can meet the 730-day criterion during the first 5-year period immediately after their arrival in Canada.
The PR card renewal is inextricably linked with whether OP has fulfilled his residency requirements, if he hasn't done so how can he renew his PR card?
When he applies for a PR card, he will automatically trigger a calculation of his residency obligations, based on that his PR card application will be rejected or approved.
Now, within what margin they are willing to overlook is a matter of discretion. If it just a matter of days or weeks they may let it pass, but officially he will not have met his residency obligations.
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I am only talking about reentering the country while being compliant with RO.
I dont understand your calculation
As per my calculations i met RO in both the cases i.e. Date of Landing and PR card expiry . am i doing any thing wrong in the calculations?
again Just For Ref I first Landed on Dec 03 2015 and stayed only for 14 days, I returned on 15 Nov 2018 and til date i am inside Canada.
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Revisiting the initial query, which asks TWO separate questions, and which provides most of the key information necessary to answer those questions.
BUT, first, for emphasis, RO compliance is calculated based on the DATE of EXAMINATION and the PR card EXPIRATION DATE IS NOT RELEVANT in any regard in assessing compliance with the Residency Obligation. Period. PR card expiry date is NOT RELEVANT.
Thus . . .
With one exception: if the date the PR card expires just happens to be the precise date RO compliance is being determined, being examined, that date matters. But it does not matter because it is the date the PR card expires. It ONLY matters if that is the examination date. Again, the date of PR card expiration is NOT RELEVANT, NOT at all relevant, in calculating Residency Obligation compliance.
Beyond that there are TWO different time periods for determining how RO compliance is calculated.
These two time periods are separate and distinct. They KEY date, for determining which time period is applicable, is the Date of Landing. @canuck78 gets this right. While much of what is posted by @thevisawhisperer is accurate, it tends to be confusing, and in regards to the post stating that what @canuck78 posted was not true, actually that is what was not true. The irony is that in the very same post @thevisawhisperer goes on to quote the statutory language which specifically describes the TWO different time periods BASED on the Date of Landing . . . which are not really that complicated.
In particular: Up to the fifth year anniversary of the DATE of LANDING, RO compliance is calculated one way, and as of and AFTER the fifth year anniversary of the DATE of LANDING RO compliance is calculated a different way.
That is, during the FIRST FIVE years after landing, RO compliance is calculated one way. Anytime after the FIRST FIVE years following the date of landing has passed, RO compliance is calculated another way.
For you, you have stated that the DATE of Landing was December 3, 2015. So, if and when you are subject to a RO compliance examination, which of the relevant time periods is applicable depends on whether the DATE of EXAMINATION is before or after December 3, 2020, that is, before or after the fifth year anniversary of the DATE of YOUR LANDING.
Thus, for example, if you leave Canada (for a holiday or whatever other reason) and you return to Canada BEFORE December 3, 2020, before the fifth year anniversary of your date of landing, upon arrival at the PoE into Canada you could be examined for RO compliance, and if you are that will involve counting how many days you have so far been IN Canada and add to that the number of days left on the calendar to December 3, 2020, and if that number totals at least 730 you are in compliance with the RO. If it totals less than 730, you are NOT in compliance.
Note: whether or not it is likely you will be examined upon your arrival is a separate question. And even if examined, whether or not you are likely to be given a pass given your current establishment in Canada and recent stay in Canada, that too is a separate question. If you are short of 730 days, counting days in Canada and days still left on the calendar to the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, you are technically in breach of the RO and at some risk of being Reported and issued a Removal Order. My guess is the risk is fairly low if you are returning after a short trip abroad. But there is some risk and there is a wide range of individual factors which can influence how it actually goes.
This leads to a discussion about what is the date of examination. Again, the RO compliance calculation is based on the date of the examination.
Typically, PRs are subject to a RO compliance examination as of the following dates:
Technically CBSA or IRCC could conduct a RO compliance examination as of any day. Practically, examinations are only done in those instances I just enumerated above.
In any event, for traveling abroad and returning to Canada before December 3, 2020, the RO compliance calculation counts days IN Canada so far and ADDS to that the number of days left on the calendar up to December 3, 2020. To be in compliance, that total needs to be at least 730.
For traveling abroad where you will be returning to Canada AFTER December 3, 2020, the RO compliance calculation counts days IN Canada within the FIVE years previous to that particular day, the day of arrival and examination at a PoE.
Similarly, if you make an application for a new PR card, and you make that application before December 3, 2020, the initial RO compliance calculation counts days IN Canada so far, as of the date of the application, and ADDs to that the number of days left on the calendar up to December 3, 2020. 730 or more needed to be in compliance. IRCC could also conduct a later examination, which would likely be some time after December 3, 2020, and it will be the date of that examination that the calculation will be based on . . . counting days in Canada within the previous five years as of that date.
So, if you make an application for a new PR card after December 3, 2020, the initial RO compliance calculation will count days IN Canada within the five years prior to the date of the application.
Probably insignificant, but for clarity, note that between December 3, 2020 and approximately December 27, 2020 (two weeks later), if you are IN Canada then your RO compliance calculation will be the same every day during that period. During that period each day IN Canada is added to the calculation, but the corresponding date back in 2015 is dropped from the calculation (as those days fall outside the last five year time period).
Edit for correction in last paragraph: Two weeks after December 3 is December 17 not the 27th. Sorry.
BUT, first, for emphasis, RO compliance is calculated based on the DATE of EXAMINATION and the PR card EXPIRATION DATE IS NOT RELEVANT in any regard in assessing compliance with the Residency Obligation. Period. PR card expiry date is NOT RELEVANT.
Thus . . .
It is wrong to consider the date of the PR card expiration in calculating RO compliance. PR card expiration date is NOT relevant.
With one exception: if the date the PR card expires just happens to be the precise date RO compliance is being determined, being examined, that date matters. But it does not matter because it is the date the PR card expires. It ONLY matters if that is the examination date. Again, the date of PR card expiration is NOT RELEVANT, NOT at all relevant, in calculating Residency Obligation compliance.
Beyond that there are TWO different time periods for determining how RO compliance is calculated.
These two time periods are separate and distinct. They KEY date, for determining which time period is applicable, is the Date of Landing. @canuck78 gets this right. While much of what is posted by @thevisawhisperer is accurate, it tends to be confusing, and in regards to the post stating that what @canuck78 posted was not true, actually that is what was not true. The irony is that in the very same post @thevisawhisperer goes on to quote the statutory language which specifically describes the TWO different time periods BASED on the Date of Landing . . . which are not really that complicated.
In particular: Up to the fifth year anniversary of the DATE of LANDING, RO compliance is calculated one way, and as of and AFTER the fifth year anniversary of the DATE of LANDING RO compliance is calculated a different way.
That is, during the FIRST FIVE years after landing, RO compliance is calculated one way. Anytime after the FIRST FIVE years following the date of landing has passed, RO compliance is calculated another way.
For you, you have stated that the DATE of Landing was December 3, 2015. So, if and when you are subject to a RO compliance examination, which of the relevant time periods is applicable depends on whether the DATE of EXAMINATION is before or after December 3, 2020, that is, before or after the fifth year anniversary of the DATE of YOUR LANDING.
Thus, for example, if you leave Canada (for a holiday or whatever other reason) and you return to Canada BEFORE December 3, 2020, before the fifth year anniversary of your date of landing, upon arrival at the PoE into Canada you could be examined for RO compliance, and if you are that will involve counting how many days you have so far been IN Canada and add to that the number of days left on the calendar to December 3, 2020, and if that number totals at least 730 you are in compliance with the RO. If it totals less than 730, you are NOT in compliance.
Note: whether or not it is likely you will be examined upon your arrival is a separate question. And even if examined, whether or not you are likely to be given a pass given your current establishment in Canada and recent stay in Canada, that too is a separate question. If you are short of 730 days, counting days in Canada and days still left on the calendar to the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, you are technically in breach of the RO and at some risk of being Reported and issued a Removal Order. My guess is the risk is fairly low if you are returning after a short trip abroad. But there is some risk and there is a wide range of individual factors which can influence how it actually goes.
This leads to a discussion about what is the date of examination. Again, the RO compliance calculation is based on the date of the examination.
Typically, PRs are subject to a RO compliance examination as of the following dates:
-- date of arrival at a PoE
-- date an application for a new PR card is made
-- date of an RO compliance examination attendant processing a PR card application (such as when IRCC sends a formal Residency-questionnaire to the PR with a PR card application pending, or calls the PR in for a RO compliance interview)
-- date of an RO compliance examination attendant some other immigration application for which valid PR status is a requirement (such as attendant an application to sponsor a spouse or child)
-- date an application is made abroad for a PR Travel Document
Technically CBSA or IRCC could conduct a RO compliance examination as of any day. Practically, examinations are only done in those instances I just enumerated above.
In any event, for traveling abroad and returning to Canada before December 3, 2020, the RO compliance calculation counts days IN Canada so far and ADDS to that the number of days left on the calendar up to December 3, 2020. To be in compliance, that total needs to be at least 730.
For traveling abroad where you will be returning to Canada AFTER December 3, 2020, the RO compliance calculation counts days IN Canada within the FIVE years previous to that particular day, the day of arrival and examination at a PoE.
Similarly, if you make an application for a new PR card, and you make that application before December 3, 2020, the initial RO compliance calculation counts days IN Canada so far, as of the date of the application, and ADDs to that the number of days left on the calendar up to December 3, 2020. 730 or more needed to be in compliance. IRCC could also conduct a later examination, which would likely be some time after December 3, 2020, and it will be the date of that examination that the calculation will be based on . . . counting days in Canada within the previous five years as of that date.
So, if you make an application for a new PR card after December 3, 2020, the initial RO compliance calculation will count days IN Canada within the five years prior to the date of the application.
Probably insignificant, but for clarity, note that between December 3, 2020 and approximately December 27, 2020 (two weeks later), if you are IN Canada then your RO compliance calculation will be the same every day during that period. During that period each day IN Canada is added to the calculation, but the corresponding date back in 2015 is dropped from the calculation (as those days fall outside the last five year time period).
Edit for correction in last paragraph: Two weeks after December 3 is December 17 not the 27th. Sorry.
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Just For information i just had a call with the immigration lawyer, and he told me that the RO will be calculated from the date of landing till the PR card expiration i.e. upon arrival the officer will check whether i will be able to meet 730 days requirement till the expiry date of my PR card.
This is either erroneous or is about what is likely to PRACTICALLY happen upon arrival at a PoE. I do not know the lawyer or why in particular the lawyer said this, but my guess is the latter. I alluded to this in my previous post:
CBSA PoE officials are often rather flexible and even outright liberal in regards to enforcing the Residency Obligation, particularly when an arriving PR clearly has ongoing, substantial ties in Canada, and even more so for a PR who appears to currently have established residence-in-fact in Canada. It also appears rather clearly that there is more flexibility, a more liberal approach, toward PRs still within the first five years OR SO. The Canadian government is well aware that it can be difficult, and it can take time, for new immigrants to fully make the move to and settle in Canada, and so the Residency Obligation is not strictly enforced, at least not so much where it appears the PR is genuinely in the process of establishing PERMANENT residence-in-fact in Canada.
Additionally, presenting a valid PR card is itself considered a strong indicator of valid PR status UNLESS there is something overtly indicating the PR is inadmissible for a breach of the PR Residency Obligation.
This is why there are so many posts in this forum which address the possibility of re-entering Canada without being Reported despite the returning PR being in breach of the RO. This is indeed very common. Many attribute this to chance, and indeed chance seems to be a factor in more than a few instances. But the practical reality is that there are many individual factors. One of the most salient factors is presenting a valid PR card.
Another particularly salient factor is how long the PR has been outside Canada . . . noting, for example, if the PR was last in Canada three or more years ago, the PR is obviously in breach of the RO. Thus, for example, the closer to having been absent from Canada for three years, the more likely a returning PR will be referred to Secondary and asked questions related to RO compliance.
Among other key factors is how well the PR is currently established in Canada (or appears to be, or appears to not be). Canada is primarily interested in whether a PR, especially relatively new immigrants (again, within the first five OR SO years, such as still within the period of time the first PR card is still valid), is actually, genuinely settling in Canada. The focus of RO enforcement is the overriding purpose of the grant of Permanent Resident status: so the individual can settle and reside in Canada PERMANENTLY.
As such, how much focused CBSA or IRCC officials are on whether the PR is TECHNICALLY in compliance with the RO can and very often will depend on whether they perceive the PR to genuinely be settling permanently in Canada or not. Thus, some PRs will encounter fairly strict enforcement, while other PRs will be allowed some flexibility in addition to the flexibility hard-wired into the RO itself (requiring just two out of five years actual presence allows PRs a lot of flexibility).
You have indicated a number of factors which tend to indicate a low risk for strict enforcement. And yes, having a PR card, primarily a FIRST PR card, which is still valid, in conjunction with how long you have been in Canada so far, especially recently, and in conjunction with returning to Canada after a short trip abroad, all tends to indicate PoE officials are likely to waive you through without even probing into the details about how many days you have been in Canada.
NONETHELESS . . . for purposes of strictly calculating compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, again the expiration date of the PR card is NOT RELEVANT. Thus, if you leave Canada and return prior to December 3, 2020, your compliance with the RO will depend on the number of days you have been IN Canada, so far, PLUS the number of days left on the calendar to December 3. If that total is less than 730, you would be in breach of the RO. TECHNICALLY in breach.
This means there is SOME risk if you are returning to Canada and the total credit is less than 730. The main factors tend to indicate a rather low risk.
AN ADDITIONAL ILLUSTRATIVE EXAMPLE:
A more illuminating example might be looking at an arrival at a PoE returning to Canada after December 3, 2020. If you leave Canada and return after December 3, 2020, and you are examined as to RO compliance, there is NO doubt, that calculation will be based on the number of days IN Canada during the five years prior to that day, the date you arrive at the PoE. NO credit at all for days between the date of arrival and the expiration date on the PR card.
BUT whether or not you are actually questioned, or at least whether or not you are questioned closely for purposes of precisely calculating your compliance with the RO, can be very much influenced by whether you are returning prior to February 5, 2021 (you refer to this as your "renewal" date; I interpret this to be the expiration date on your current PR card) or later. Indeed, unless you are returning after a lengthy absence, or it is otherwise apparent you are not settled in Canada, or it is apparent you have been absent from Canada three or more years in the previous five years, the risk of a close RO compliance examination is a lot LOWER if you arrive BEFORE February 5, 2021 then after.
But, for example, the longer the more recent absence or the more indication there is of having been absent three or more years in the prior five, and the closer to February 5, 2021 it is, the more the risk of a close examination.
once again thanks for the detailed explanation.
As you said "if you leave Canada and return prior to December 3, 2020, your compliance with the RO will depend on the number of days you have been IN Canada, so far, PLUS the number of days left on the calendar to December 3. If that total is less than 730, you would be in breach of the RO. TECHNICALLY in breach."
based on this excluding my 3 weeks vacation in august , still i will be able to remain IN Canada for 741 Days till Dec 03,2020, so technically i am not in breach.
May I know why you said "til Dec 3, 2020"? Is this the date you plan to sign the application to renew your PR card or return Canada?
Obviously, NEITHER . . .
I do not purport to speak for @vdevil786 but it is clear this is about credit toward RO compliance upon arrival at a PoE any time before the fifth year anniversary of @vdevil786's date of landing, which has been reported to be Dec 3, 2020 (date of landing Dec 3, 2015).
Reminder: until the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, a PR gets credit toward RO compliance for:
-- all days IN Canada since date of landing, AND
-- all days remaining on the calendar until the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing
To be in compliance with the RO these credits must total at least 730.
More specifically, @vdevil786 has indicated a planned trip abroad in August. If, for example, @vdevil786 returns to Canada September 3, 2020, and is closely examined about RO compliance (the odds are good that will not happen, but it could), then @vdevil786 will be entitled to credit for the 90 days between that day and December 3, 2020. So, @vdevil786 will be in compliance with the RO as long as @vdevil786 has been physically in Canada at least 640 days as of the day of arrival.
That noted, the same calculation applies if @vdevil786 makes the PR card renewal application any time between now and December 3, 2020. That is, @vdevil786 will be in compliance with the RO as long as the total number of days so far in Canada PLUS the number of days left on the calendar until December 3 ADD up to a TOTAL that is at least 730.
However, given cutting-it-so-close, it will be prudent for @vdevil786 to WAIT to apply for a new PR card as long as practical, that is so long as there is no need to travel abroad in 2021 after the current PR card expires (which apparently is Feb 5, 2020), so that @vdevil786's establishment in Canada and compliance with the RO is clear enough to reduce the RISK of non-routine processing, especially a referral to Secondary Review which could delay the issuance of a new PR card by 6 to 12 months.