Quebec inland application procedure - please help!

[BeShoo]

Hi,

I need help with a few things due to serious procrastination. I used to be active on this board, but lately I haven't had time and I'm out of touch. My two specific questions are number at the end of this post.

My boyfriend (conjugal partner) came to live with me in Canada from the United States as a visitor in January, 2010. At the time, we were preparing a conjugal partner application, but it took considerable time to put that together and we became common law partners in the meantime. At that point we had to revise everything, and this process went on and on as further delays came up.

At this point, we've applied for and received 4 Visitor Record extensions and it will be time to request a fifth one the first week of January. I'm worried that they might not be willing to issue another one, so I'm thinking we should switch to an inland application because I don't think they can refuse a visitor extension for that.

Processing times currently are 28 days + 15 months (=16 months) for outland and 11 months + 8 months (=19 months) for inland, so I think outland might even be an advantage. It's been a struggle lately surviving on one income, and inland might even get my partner a work permit earlier. I probably should apply for an open work permit at the same time as the application, but money is extremely tight, so I'd like to wait for that.

We got the medical check and police records check done in early 2010 but I think we should just send in what we have and wait for them to complain that they're out of date.

Answers I need:

1. The guide says, "However, you only need to complete the Application to Sponsor, Sponsorship Agreement and Undertaking (IMM 1344)." Does that mean that I shouldn't send the complete package to Vegreville to start with? Do I just send in 1344 and wait? I know that I need a reply on the sponsorship before I can apply to MICC. It's going to be very hard to come up with the money for the MICC fee, but I have to get this application moving.

2. Do I need to apply for another VR extension with the application? We have gone back to the U.S. to visit my partner's family every summer (driving) except this year and we will be going again for the weekend in about 2 weeks. We've never had a problem coming back to Canada showing the VR. We would like to be able to visit the U.S. again next summer, and I suppose we would need a valid VR to be able to return.

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[scylla]

You must send the entire application (sponsor and applicant section) to Vegreville together. You must pay the $75 + $475 fees at a minimum to start. You can pay the right of permanent residence fee ($490) at a later date. It would really be best to include the Open Work Permit application with the inland application since you'll get it sooner than way. Otherwise I believe it will take another six weeks extra to get the Open Work Permit.

You will definitely have to re-do the medical and the police certificates. Both are far too old at this point. However I guess you can wait until CIC asks for them.

A visitor record guarantees re-entry. It's generally a bad idea to leave Canada while an inland application is in progress since the application will be abandoned if you're not allowed back in for any reason.

 

[Rob_TO]

Processing times currently are 28 days + 15 months (=16 months) for outland

US citizens applications are processed in CPP-Ottawa, and current times these days based on others experiences, is in the 8-10 months range. So you could probably get full PR status applying outland, quicker than it takes to get just stage 1 of inland.

Although if you submit your application with expired medical and police checks, you can expect delays in processing so you probably wouldn't get the quick times that those with a complete application get.

We have gone back to the U.S. to visit my partner's family every summer (driving) except this year and we will be going again for the weekend in about 2 weeks. We've never had a problem coming back to Canada showing the VR. We would like to be able to visit the U.S. again next summer, and I suppose we would need a valid VR to be able to return.

If you intend to travel back and forth to the US during processing, then you should choose outland. After being here as a visitor for almost 4 years and getting multiple extensions, who knows when CBSA may say that's enough, and deny entry. If you have an inland app in progress and are denied entry, the entire app is cancelled and you have to start from scratch again.

 

[BeShoo]

You will definitely have to re-do the medical and the police certificates. Both are far too old at this point. However I guess you can wait until CIC asks for them.

I know they are too old, but I think that doing another medical check at this point would be a waste of money since I think there is a reasonable chance of it expiring before all processing is complete. We would then need a third one.

A visitor record guarantees re-entry. It's generally a bad idea to leave Canada while an inland application is in progress since the application will be abandoned if you're not allowed back in for any reason.

I think you meant to say that it does not guarantee re-entry, because it doesn't. People have said many times on this board that it's too risky to visit the U.S. with the V.R. even on an outland application, but we've done it 3 times now and each times, we were waved through very quickly without many questions at all. We were kind of warned that we need to get the application in because the V.R. is expiring but we had no secondary inspection. The three previous trips when my partner was coming from the U.S., there were long delays in secondary inspection.

I know it could be risky to leave Canada while an inland application is in progress, but I think the risk is probably minimal. I refer to the following page on the CIC Help Centre: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=248&t=3

Can I go on vacation while my application for permanent residence is being processed?

Taking a vacation outside of Canada should not affect your application for permanent residence. However, if you leave Canada while your application is being processed, you may not be allowed to come back into Canada. Each time you come back, you must meet all the rules for entering the country.

If you leave Canada and want to return, you must have:

• a valid passport or other travel documents;
• a valid work permit, if you are returning to work in Canada; and
• a valid temporary resident visa, if you are a citizen of a country for which Canada requires one.
  

I don't foresee any problems with travel documents because his passport is valid for several more years, and he won't be returning to work in Canada (since he's not working) and U.S. citizens don't need a TRV, so that doesn't apply either. Have you heard of anyone with a VR being denied entry into Canada. (Besides the obvious reasons like a crime being committed, etc.)

 

[BeShoo]

US citizens applications are processed in CPP-Ottawa, and current times these days based on others experiences, is in the 8-10 months range. So you could probably get full PR status applying outland, quicker than it takes to get just stage 1 of inland.

I realize that the quoted times are times that 80% of applications get processed, so the average application is obviously faster than that. Nevertheless, the time I quoted are the current times for CPP-O and the other offices. It would seem to indicate that first-stage inland could be faster than a complete outland application. I assume that this is because of the recent strike. I hope that the backlog gets cleared up and the times decrease but I can't be sure of that.

If you intend to travel back and forth to the US during processing, then you should choose outland. After being here as a visitor for almost 4 years and getting multiple extensions, who knows when CBSA may say that's enough, and deny entry. If you have an inland app in progress and are denied entry, the entire app is cancelled and you have to start from scratch again.

The processing manual, the last time I checked (which was over a year ago), specifies that extensions should always be given for inland applications, but it doesn't say anything about outland extensions. He's already in Canada, so he isn't going to be denied entry. There seems more of a chance that he'll be asked to leave if we request another extension for an outland application. I'm thinking it might be better to stop visits to the U.S. He won't be happy about it and neither will his father, but it seems like it might be safer. What do you think? Do you still think we need to do outland? (See also my earlier reply to scylla.)

 

[QuebecOkie]

I don't have a lot to add, but I know that if I went back in time to do it over again, I would do an outland app. We did an inland app, and even though we got extremely lucky and completed the entire process in just under a year, I felt trapped here, and as a result, haven't seen my family in over 16 months. From what we've seen on this forum, may outland applications are finished before stage one approval is granted for inland applications. He's had no trouble getting extensions thus far, and soon you'll have a PR application in progress, so I wouldn't think he'd have any trouble getting another. However, there's no guarantee, as you know.

I would also advise you to go ahead and redo the medical and the police certificates. Is there a chance you'd have to redo medical a third time? Yes, especially with an inland app (as they take a good deal longer). However, personally, I would want to do everything in my power to avoid any delays. I screwed up a lot of things with my app, haha, but I'd be sure to do everything correctly if I had it to do over again, if only to alleviate months of stress.

As others have said, you must pay at least the $75 + $475 up front. I've read on here that it is advisable to pay all fees up front, so that's another $490 for a total of $1040. However, from what I've read from other members on here and from my own experience, it doesn't seem that paying the RPRF ($490 - right of permanent residence fee) later in the process causes any delay with an inland app. I've read it can affect outland timelines more negatively.

Also, Québec has an extra step in the process. Some time after your app is received by CIC, you will receive a letter instructing you to complete the undertaking and send to MICC (Québec's immigration bureau) for the CSQ (Certificat de sélection du Québec). This costs you an extra $266 at the time you make that request. http://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/EN/IMMIGRATE-SETTLE/sponsors-sponsored/apply/undertaking-application/index.html This extra step doesn't seem to slow the process down compared to apps within the ROC (rest of Canada).

 

[scylla]

I don't foresee any problems with travel documents because his passport is valid for several more years, and he won't be returning to work in Canada (since he's not working) and U.S. citizens don't need a TRV, so that doesn't apply either. Have you heard of anyone with a VR being denied entry into Canada. (Besides the obvious reasons like a crime being committed, etc.)

Sorry - yes - I meant to say that a VP doesn't guarantee re-entry. Apologies for the typo.

And yes - an acquaintance of mine was refused entry into Canada with a VR around two years ago. She's American married to a Canadian. She was not working in Canada and not going to school - and wasn't accused of doing either when she was turned away. Instead she was told she had been spending too much time in Canada and abusing visitor priviledges.

By no means do I think this happens often - I think it's rare for Americans. But the risk exists.

 

[Rob_TO]

I realize that the quoted times are times that 80% of applications get processed, so the average application is obviously faster than that. Nevertheless, the time I quoted are the current times for CPP-O and the other offices. It would seem to indicate that first-stage inland could be faster than a complete outland application. I assume that this is because of the recent strike. I hope that the backlog gets cleared up and the times decrease but I can't be sure of that.

I don't think you quite understand the posted times on CIC. Those are not "average" times. They are basically worst case times for 80% of the applications. So if it's showing 14 months, then 79% of applications are done quicker than 14 months.
The 50% times are much more indicative of current average processing times, which can be downloaded from the Open Data website. CPP-Ottawa 50% processing times is currently posted as 9 months.

Plus if you just go to the CPP-Ottawa thread and read people experiences, most people are getting right around 8-10 months. So whatever backlog there was, is not a factor anymore through CPP-O.

So yes 11 months of Inland stage 1 "could" be quicker, and probably will be if you submit expired medicals and police checks... but it's very reasonable to think that if someone submitted a complete application outland to CPP-O it should be done quicker than 11 months.

The processing manual, the last time I checked (which was over a year ago), specifies that extensions should always be given for inland applications, but it doesn't say anything about outland extensions. He's already in Canada, so he isn't going to be denied entry. There seems more of a chance that he'll be asked to leave if we request another extension for an outland application. I'm thinking it might be better to stop visits to the U.S. He won't be happy about it and neither will his father, but it seems like it might be safer. What do you think? Do you still think we need to do outland? (See also my earlier reply to scylla.)

There is no extension required for inland apps. When you submit the OWP app along with inland app, you have automatic implied status for the entire duration of processing. The big risk with inland is leaving to the US. As i said, if he's denied entry for any reason back to Canada, the entire application is cancelled. You need to weigh the pros and cons of each way and choose which is better for you.

 

[scylla]

I don't think you quite understand the posted times on CIC. Those are not "average" times. They are basically worst case times for 80% of the applications. So if it's showing 14 months, then 79% of applications are done quicker than 14 months.
The 50% times are much more indicative of current average processing times, which can be downloaded from the Open Data website. CPP-Ottawa 50% processing times is currently posted as 9 months.

Rob_TO makes a very good point. I think the stats on the CIC web site for outland are frequently misunderstood. The processing times do not represent how long it took for 80% of applications to be processed - the processing times represent the worst case scenario (longest processing times) experienced by 80% of applications.

To provide a real life example: when my husband's application was processed through Buffalo, the posted processing time was either 9 or 10 months. Buffalo took less than three months to review and approve his application (Mississauga took a bit over a month for their bit).

But in the end, it's obviously your choice and you have to do what makes you comfortable.

 

[BeShoo]

We did an inland app, and even though we got extremely lucky and completed the entire process in just under a year, I felt trapped here, and as a result, haven't seen my family in over 16 months.

I really do appreciate your advice, even though it might seem that I'm arguing against it. I'm a bit biased because I don't want to lose him even for a few months. I remember how it was when I couldn't be with him for months, but that's kind of more about me. The trapped feeling is a real danger, too, but that affects him more than it does me, so I need to give it proper weight in the decision.

As others have said, you must pay at least the $75 + $475 up front...

I did pay the $550 three years ago now, but I don't currently have the funds for the RPRF fee.

 

[BeShoo]

I don't think you quite understand the posted times on CIC. Those are not "average" times. They are basically worst case times for 80% of the applications. So if it's showing 14 months, then 79% of applications are done quicker than 14 months.

No, I think I understand the posted times and I know they're not average, but I think that the inland times are just as much above average as the outland times, so that's why I was weighing those figures against each other, rather than taking them as absolute gospel.

 

[scylla]

I did pay the $550 three years ago now, but I don't currently have the funds for the RPRF fee.

You can definitely pay the RPRF later. So don't worry about that.

If do apply inland - any chance you can swing an extra $150 for the OWP? It's really in our favour to include this with the original application since it means you'll be issued the work permit as soon as AIP is received. Otherwise you have to wait for AIP, pay the fee, submit the OWP application and then wait some more (an additional six weeks maybe?).

 

[scylla]

No, I think I understand the posted times and I know they're not average, but I think that the inland times are just as much above average as the outland times, so that's why I was weighing those figures against each other, rather than taking them as absolute gospel.

Stage 1 for inland is unfortunately not an average. It's how long it really takes (provided there are no complications with the file). It's a fixed period of time much like the Mississauga processing step for outland.

Stage 2 for inland varies widely for people. A few are approved almost immediately after AIP - and some drag out past the processing time listed.

 

[Rob_TO]

No, I think I understand the posted times and I know they're not average, but I think that the inland times are just as much above average as the outland times, so that's why I was weighing those figures against each other, rather than taking them as absolute gospel.

That is not correct. The posted inland times have nothing to do with the 80% stats for outland, and the time is measured differently. The inland apps show a real-time stat of what the current processing times are.
Right now its:
11 months
(initial assessment)
Working on applications received on January 14, 2013

So in other words if they are only working on apps from January, then there is practically zero chance someone would get their stage 1 of application processed much quicker.

Outland apps though are all over the place, and in the majority of cases people get processed much quicker that the times posted for each visa office.

 

[BeShoo]

Thanks for the clarification. I think I understand it much better now. I guess we'll take our changes with another visitor extension. Received wisdom is that every extension is less and less likely to be approved, but the last extensions we've received give something like "complied with all conditions" as the reason for the extension.