+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

PRTD Appeal allowed, PRTD still under review?

bilaljah

Full Member
Sep 24, 2021
23
4
Hello, I recently appealed my PRTD refusal from 2021 based on HNC and was successful in end January 2023. IRCC Abu Dhabi told me to sit tight and that they’ll process my old application once they receive notice from the IAD back in early February. Now upon inquiring through the MPs office, they stated that the PRTD is still under review. Do they just mean that it’s being processed, or is there something still left for them to decide? From my understanding, once a PR appeal has been allowed and the PRTD refusal of the overseas officer has been set aside, they have to issue a PRTD right? Or is there a chance they can still refuse it?
Thank you
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
92,828
20,488
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Hello, I recently appealed my PRTD refusal from 2021 based on HNC and was successful in end January 2023. IRCC Abu Dhabi told me to sit tight and that they’ll process my old application once they receive notice from the IAD back in early February. Now upon inquiring through the MPs office, they stated that the PRTD is still under review. Do they just mean that it’s being processed, or is there something still left for them to decide? From my understanding, once a PR appeal has been allowed and the PRTD refusal of the overseas officer has been set aside, they have to issue a PRTD right? Or is there a chance they can still refuse it?
Thank you
I thought that a successful appeal sets aside the decision by the original officer and returns the application to a different officer to review and make a new decision. But maybe I'm wrong about that second part.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,267
3,028
Hello, I recently appealed my PRTD refusal from 2021 based on HNC and was successful in end January 2023. IRCC Abu Dhabi told me to sit tight and that they’ll process my old application once they receive notice from the IAD back in early February. Now upon inquiring through the MPs office, they stated that the PRTD is still under review. Do they just mean that it’s being processed, or is there something still left for them to decide? From my understanding, once a PR appeal has been allowed and the PRTD refusal of the overseas officer has been set aside, they have to issue a PRTD right? Or is there a chance they can still refuse it?
Thank you
". . . I recently appealed my PRTD refusal from 2021 based on HNC and was successful in end January 2023. . . . . Now upon inquiring through the MPs office, they stated that the PRTD is still under review. Do they just mean . . . "​

Assuming you are correct, that the IAD has in fact allowed the appeal, it is NOT at all likely the matter has been returned to the visa office to be re-determined or reassessed.

As I previously responded, I do not know how these things go in actual practice following the IAD's decision.

I do not know anywhere near for sure, but I believe that how quickly a positive IAD decision results in a PR TD being issued can depend a lot on how the Minister responds. That is, the Minister can readily facilitate faster processing or effect some delay. And the Minister can seek further review.

In particular, I know of multiple possible delays and even potential hurdles that can be encountered. I made no mention of these in previous discussions about your case because these involve post-hearing actions by the Minister to delay or set aside the IAD decision, which are not common, but rather are the exception. That is, this is about what can happen but is not what most would expect to happen.

It is NOT clear to me that "the PRTD is still under review" means the Minister is pursuing some post-hearing action to contest the IAD's decision, but it could mean that. It could also mean that the status of the case is still within a window of time during which the Minister has options to contest the decision.

For example, the Minister/IRCC can seek leave to appeal the IAD decision to the Federal Court. This does not appear to be common, but IRCC does seek Federal Court review in some of these cases.

It also warrants noting that there is often a delay in the IAD officially publishing the decision following the hearing. It is common to see the date of decision being two to four months AFTER the date of the hearing, and I believe this happens even though the IAD has announced what decision it is making (which could have been at or soon after the hearing).

The window in time during which IRCC can appeal to the Federal Court does not begin until the official decision. So, unless the Minister has indicated otherwise, it might not be known or established that the IAD decision stands, is not being further appealed, for at least 30 days AFTER the IAD officially publishes a decision.

Moreover, between the date of the hearing and the IAD announcing what its decision will be, up to the date the official decision is published, the Minister may also be allowed to ask the IAD to reconsider or seek other recourse potentially delaying or, if for example the Minister succeeds, reversing the outcome. This is NOT common. Generally, usually, there is no cause to apprehend this will happen. But it can. It sometimes does.


I thought that a successful appeal sets aside the decision by the original officer and returns the application to a different officer to review and make a new decision. But maybe I'm wrong about that second part.
Also believe that your PRTD is only being reassessed by a new officer and hasn’t been approved yet.
For visa office decisions denying a PR TD based on a breach of the RO, a successful appeal based on H&C relief will not be returned to the visa office to be re-determined or reassessed. This is in contrast to other kinds of decisions on appeal, allowing the appeal and remitting the matter to be re-determined (usually by a different officer or decision-maker).

Explanation:

The IAD decides appeals of PR TD denials "de novo," meaning it is in effect a new trial, and (with exceptions, usually related to procedural quirks) the decision either upholds the visa office decision (and thus the individual is no longer a PR) or it determines the individual has not lost PR status. Generally the decision to allow the appeal of a PR TD denial based on H&C reasons does NOT involve the matter being remitted to the visa office for redetermination. The typical IAD decision in an appeal of PR TD denial by a visa office, resulting in the appeal being allowed for H&C reasons, looks like this:
The appeal is allowed. The decision of the officer made outside Canada on the appellant’s residency obligation is set aside. The Immigration Appeal Division finds that the appellant has not lost her permanent resident status.

Thus, when such a decision is made there is no legitimate reason or grounds for a visa office to deny a PR TD.

In contrast, where in an appeal the IAD sets aside a decision by the RPD, for example, it is common for the matter to be returned to the RPD for redetermination, typically (almost always) by a different officer (different panel). Examples of such decisions are:
The appeal is allowed. Pursuant to [statutory citation], I refer this matter to the RPD for redetermination by a differently constituted panel.
The appeal is allowed. Pursuant to [statutory citation], I send this matter back to the RPD to be redetermined.


For examples of the language in a decision allowing appeal of a PR TD denial, which I quote above, see:
Quevedo, 2022 CanLII 125818 https://canlii.ca/t/jtttm
Gasper, 2019 CanLII 42315 https://canlii.ca/t/j096j
Messaoudi, 2021 CanLII 81102 https://canlii.ca/t/jhv21
Chowdhury, 2022 CanLII 123559 https://canlii.ca/t/jtqht
Rakhmatulina, 2022 CanLII 128902 https://canlii.ca/t/jv6k8
Devbhandari, 2022 CanLII 123561 https://canlii.ca/t/jtqjf
Zamil, 2022 CanLII 123565 https://canlii.ca/t/jtqj1

If the IAD has in fact allowed the appeal, and the Minister does not pursue further review, however long the process now takes, for the OP the next step should be getting the PR TD. This will not go back to the visa office to be re-determined.

That said . . . as I commented in response to the OP's query, there remains the possibility that the Minister objects to the IAD's decision and the matter is still in a window in time during which the Minister is deciding whether to seek further review, or perhaps the process has already been initiated to pursue further review.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bilaljah and scylla

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,267
3,028
Please forgive my wandering off-topic for just a bit . . .

Covid-19 factor in H&C assessment:

In part because it comes up in a few of the cases I just cited, in the previous post, and in part because I have not previously cited official sources regarding Covid constituting a positive factor supporting H&C relief for a RO breach (noting this lack of citation was largely because it is so obvious that the impact of the pandemic warrants consideration in many RO H&C cases, there did not seem any need to document it), it warrants noting that Covid-19 and the pandemic does indeed come up in scores of PR obligation cases, in addition to being a H&C factor in other types of cases (such as refugee cases).

In particular . . . In three of those cases I just cited and linked, in Messaoudi https://canlii.ca/t/jhv21 and Quevedo https://canlii.ca/t/jtttm and Chowdhury, 2022 CanLII 123559 https://canlii.ca/t/jtqht the IAD referenced covid as a positive H&C factor supporting H&C relief. In Quevedo, for example, the IAD stated: "I accept that the COVID-19 pandemic was a circumstance beyond the Appellant’s control . . ."

There are examples in which covid is referenced as a positive H&C factor but that was not enough to save the PR's status. See, for example, Gongsriwatanapon, 2023 CanLII 12680 https://canlii.ca/t/jvr2d where the IAD stated:
He testified that his health condition makes him more vulnerable to becoming ill to Covid-19. As a result, he had to be extra careful about travelling internationally. Regardless of the lifting of travel bans at various stages throughout the pandemic the Appellant did not feel comfortable travelling back to Canada until his application in 2022. I accept this explanation and find that this more recent delay was reasonable.

Something I have occasionally cautioned about, that a lengthy absence BEFORE covid would likely diminish the weight of covid as a positive factor is illustrated in Brillens, 2022 CanLII 132251 https://canlii.ca/t/jvrsf where the IAD panel states:
The panel considers that this delay of almost two years, despite COVID-19, does not constitute an attempt to return at the first reasonable opportunity. The appellant could have returned to Canada in 2018, 2019 or before the pandemic in 2020.​

This is further illustrated in Firoozeh v Canada, 2022 CanLII 125109 https://canlii.ca/t/jtspk where the PR had spent ZERO days in Canada during the five years prior to her PR TD application in 2021. In this case the IAD rather emphatically ruled that the reasons for her extended stay abroad, which in large part were related to Covid-19 were "reasonable." However, that was the only favourable factor and not enough to overcome the other factors, especially the extent of her breach as she had last visited Canada 2015 and never settled in Canada after becoming a PR. (While not enough to win, Covid was a particularly compelling factor in this case because she and her husband had contracted covid, and he died from covid related complications; illustrating that the role of covid will vary considerably from case to case.)

Pending Appeals versus Future RO Enforcement; the Declining Weight of Covid-19 and the Pandemic:

This perhaps needs little explanation, here too falling into the category of what is more or less obvious. As a reason for not coming to Canada sooner, the impact of Covid-19 is clearly declining and is probably approaching minimal weight for any new PR TD applications, RO examinations by border officials, or PR card applications relying on H&C relief.

For pending appeals, in contrast, there are scores of IAD decisions illustrating just what many here, including me, have often commented, that of course the impact of Covid-19 and the pandemic constituted a factor which could support H&C relief for a RO breach. Within limits. Thus, many of us have couched the influence of Covid in cautionary terms, recognizing that how much positive weight this might have would depend on the particular details (the impact of extended absence before Covid, for example, especially if it showed the PR was settled abroad). It warrants noting that among the cases discussing the influence of Covid, as a H&C factor, there are examples illustrating that it was understood the impact went well beyond just periods of the travel restrictions, and considered (depending on personal circumstances) the extent to which international travel was discouraged not just restricted . . . the fact that a person could travel back to Canada did not preclude the influence of Covid being a reasonable factor delaying travel to Canada and thus favouring H&C relief.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bilaljah

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,969
12,771
What is going on with your PR card approval. If it has been over 180 days since you were asked to collect your card in person that presents yet another challenge.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bilaljah

bilaljah

Full Member
Sep 24, 2021
23
4
Appreciate all the well-intentioned replies! It is suffocating existing in this limbo with no person in real life who actually knows about this stuff to some detail, and refreshing to converse with those familiar with the process.

@canuck78 My PR card renewal was approved back in early 2021 when I applied from within Canada, and I was informed that I’ll be contacted for an in-person interview to go pick it up which I never was. In the meantime, I had applied for a PRTD when I was outside of Canada which got refused and triggered the PR removal process, for which I successfully appealed. So I believe the PR renewal got canceled following my PRTD refusal? That’s my understanding of it.


@dpenabill I feared as much, that they maybe allow for some time for it to be ‘under review’ so as to allow time for either a Judicial Review (which I hope I’d be informed about) or to allow the window of time to pass.

I did have a couple of questions if you would be so kind?
By ‘the Minister’, are you referring to the Minister’s representative present at my appeal? Or any other representative of the Minister of Immigration and Citizenship choosing to review the decision, maybe the VO at Abu Dhabi?

By ‘IAD announcing the decision’ do you mean their sending of a Reasons and Decision document which states the appeal being allowed and their reasons behind it specifically stating ‘the decision of the officer overseas has been set aside’? Because I received that document from the IAD in early January. Or do you mean there is some further publishing of their decision after that? If it counts, I wasn’t able to find any record of my hearing online even though it’s meant to be for public record so that would support the latter theory.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,267
3,028
By ‘the Minister’, are you referring to the Minister’s representative present at my appeal? Or any other representative of the Minister of Immigration and Citizenship choosing to review the decision, maybe the VO at Abu Dhabi?

By ‘IAD announcing the decision’ do you mean their sending of a Reasons and Decision document which states the appeal being allowed and their reasons behind it specifically stating ‘the decision of the officer overseas has been set aside’? Because I received that document from the IAD in early January. Or do you mean there is some further publishing of their decision after that? If it counts, I wasn’t able to find any record of my hearing online even though it’s meant to be for public record so that would support the latter theory.
If you have a lawyer or representative that assisted you in the appeal, they should be able to offer more information and explanation.

Otherwise . . . This illustrates one of the many ways in which I am NO expert, the lack of hands-on in-practice experience with the particular procedures and only sporadic, second-hand information of the details other than what is reported in the officially published decisions. This can make it difficult to map what is known, such as about particular procedures, to what that looks like in actual cases, especially from the affected PR's view.

Which is to say I do not know what documentation the PR receives, let alone when, attendant a positive outcome in the appeal from a visa office decision denying a PR TD for RO non-compliance.

In terms of who represents the Minister in making any decision to appeal the IAD's decision, that's in the legal wing representing the Minister before the IAD and other tribunals, not in the visa office. (Minister's representative in legal proceedings is different from decision-makers in IRCC who are acting as a Minister's Delegate; former are usually lawyers, while the latter are officers.)

I am far from sure, but if the decision-making to seek judicial review is not in the hands of the Minister's representative at the appeal, I believe it would be at a supervisory level above that person. But I do not know for sure who gets to review the decision or who can ask the legal department to pursue an appeal.

Based on the discussion in another topic, I understood that your hearing itself was in the latter part of January (based on posts January 24), so I am not following or sure about what it is you received in early January, which you describe as "Reasons and Decision document which states the appeal being allowed and their reasons behind it specifically stating ‘the decision of the officer overseas has been set aside’" . . . That said, the title of the document which constitutes the IAD's official decision is indeed "Reasons and Decisions -- Motifs et décision" and if that is what you received, it should show the "Date of Decision" both in the caption near the top, and again right below the signature line for the IAD panel member who made the decision.

I believe the Minister (as decided and done by a representative) has sixty days to file an appeal AFTER receiving notice of the decision, which at the very soonest would be at least sixty days after this "Date of Decision."

Thus, for example, if the "Date of Decision" in your case was January 16, the Minister has until at least tomorrow (March 18), PLUS any additional days between the date of decision and the Minister's receipt of it (actual notice of it), to file the appeal, and noting that a judge in the Federal Court can extend that time. If an appeal is made, you should get notice, not necessarily immediately but at least within a period of days.

If there is to be an appeal, you should be learning of that shortly assuming the Date of Decision actually was in January (or earlier). Subject to some exception (such as the Federal Court allowing the Minister more time.

Otherwise, again I do not know the particular practical steps taken by IRCC and the Visa Office in these cases. It is possible, for example, that the Visa Office does not get the notice that will trigger its issuance of a PR TD until the full period for making an appeal has passed, and it could be some days beyond that before it goes through the physical steps of issuing a PR TD (there may be a request for the PR's passport for example).

Note your reporting of your experience is helping to fill some significant gaps in what we know, so please update us further when you learn more.


In regards to not finding a record of the hearing online, I do not know what decisions get "published" in online venues like Can LII (which is the one I typically access) versus those which do not. It appears some or many IAD decisions are not. And some of those published take longer to show up.
 

bilaljah

Full Member
Sep 24, 2021
23
4
@dpenabill You are correct. I meant to say end January (30th) as that's when I received the Notice of Reasons and Decision via email. The date of decision is written as 27th of January.

At the conclusion of the Appeal Hearing, the Minister's Representative stated they had no objection to the appeal being allowed, so that should be a good sign. The Minister's Representative didn't know / chose not to provide any information when I asked how long the process afterwards would take.

I'm inclined to agree with you on that last part. It seems as if Abu Dhabi doesn't get notice until a certain period of time has elapsed.

Fingers crossed I'm asked for my passport soon!
 
  • Like
Reactions: dpenabill

bilaljah

Full Member
Sep 24, 2021
23
4
Update: As of today, there is still no update. It has been 2 months and three weeks since I received my positive Notice of Decision. My MP's last query has also been met with 'there is no update on file'. I had a few queries if anyone would be so kind as to answer?

1. I am wondering if it's possible that due to Pakistan not having their VAC open at the time of me applying for the PRTD in 2021, having applied at Abu Dhabi originally, and Pakistan now having its VAC open if my case is stuck in some limbo somewhere between offices? Is there any way I can make sure that's not the case? Abu Dhabi VO has just said to hold tight, and haven't mentioned anything to do with the Pakistani VAC.

2. At this point, I am contemplating utilizing my US Visa and driving into Canada in a privately rented vehicle, as I do have a valid US B1/B2 Visa.
However, I am unsure of how big of a risk that is. My reason for applying for the US Visa was visiting my grandparents who live in the States. I applied in early 2022 and luckily received it in April 2022.

2a. Would they even allow me entry if they see that I have no return ticket back to Pakistan and am planning to enter Canada through the border? Would a flight onwards to the nearest US city near the Canadian border and a Car rental booking suffice as proof? Or would they consider that as a potential risk to stay in the US and just flat out not let me in?
2b . Could they refuse my entry into the US and cancel my visa since my purpose of travel does not fully align with my originally stated intention for obtaining the visa?

I received the 5 year US visa back in 2022. When I consulted with a lawyer pertaining to my appeal hearing, he seemed fairly positive that it was an option before my appeal had been filed, but was unsure how I would fare considering I had a hearing date already scheduled.

Is there any other course of action for me to follow, or should I just keep on waiting? Would it be worth it to consult with an Immigration Lawyer, or is it all 50/50 and just dependent on the Border Officers at each border?
Maybe I'm overthinking it and going through the USA should be a breeze, but I can't help but overthink such things with these past three years of dealing with Immigration.

Appreciate any and all responses.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,969
12,771
Update: As of today, there is still no update. It has been 2 months and three weeks since I received my positive Notice of Decision. My MP's last query has also been met with 'there is no update on file'. I had a few queries if anyone would be so kind as to answer?

1. I am wondering if it's possible that due to Pakistan not having their VAC open at the time of me applying for the PRTD in 2021, having applied at Abu Dhabi originally, and Pakistan now having its VAC open if my case is stuck in some limbo somewhere between offices? Is there any way I can make sure that's not the case? Abu Dhabi VO has just said to hold tight, and haven't mentioned anything to do with the Pakistani VAC.

2. At this point, I am contemplating utilizing my US Visa and driving into Canada in a privately rented vehicle, as I do have a valid US B1/B2 Visa.
However, I am unsure of how big of a risk that is. My reason for applying for the US Visa was visiting my grandparents who live in the States. I applied in early 2022 and luckily received it in April 2022.

2a. Would they even allow me entry if they see that I have no return ticket back to Pakistan and am planning to enter Canada through the border? Would a flight onwards to the nearest US city near the Canadian border and a Car rental booking suffice as proof? Or would they consider that as a potential risk to stay in the US and just flat out not let me in?
2b . Could they refuse my entry into the US and cancel my visa since my purpose of travel does not fully align with my originally stated intention for obtaining the visa?

I received the 5 year US visa back in 2022. When I consulted with a lawyer pertaining to my appeal hearing, he seemed fairly positive that it was an option before my appeal had been filed, but was unsure how I would fare considering I had a hearing date already scheduled.

Is there any other course of action for me to follow, or should I just keep on waiting? Would it be worth it to consult with an Immigration Lawyer, or is it all 50/50 and just dependent on the Border Officers at each border?
Maybe I'm overthinking it and going through the USA should be a breeze, but I can't help but overthink such things with these past three years of dealing with Immigration.

Appreciate any and all responses.
Have you also followed up on what happened with your PR card? Not picking it up could also trigger other issues. How many days have you spent in Canada in the past 5 years?
 

bilaljah

Full Member
Sep 24, 2021
23
4
My PR card renewal from 2020 was approved back in 2021 with them notifying that they will email me to come in for an in person interview. However, I never received that email, and when I applied for a PRTD my application for a PRTD after that was refused, so I assume the PR Card renewal was canceled. In the past five years from today, I've spent a total of around 4-5 months.

Is it worth pursuing the status of my PR card renewal at this point? I thought I would just have to apply again once I enter Canada.

It has been stuck on Decision Made since 2021, stating:

  1. We received your application for a permanent resident card on July 16, 2020.
  2. We sent you correspondence acknowledging receipt of your application(s) on March 8, 2022. (this was when I had been refused my PRTD and they had started the process of removing me as PR which I appealed)
  3. We started processing your application on May 12, 2021.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,969
12,771
My PR card renewal from 2020 was approved back in 2021 with them notifying that they will email me to come in for an in person interview. However, I never received that email, and when I applied for a PRTD my application for a PRTD after that was refused, so I assume the PR Card renewal was canceled. In the past five years from today, I've spent a total of around 4-5 months.

Is it worth pursuing the status of my PR card renewal at this point? I thought I would just have to apply again once I enter Canada.

It has been stuck on Decision Made since 2021, stating:

  1. We received your application for a permanent resident card on July 16, 2020.
  2. We sent you correspondence acknowledging receipt of your application(s) on March 8, 2022. (this was when I had been refused my PRTD and they had started the process of removing me as PR which I appealed)
  3. We started processing your application on May 12, 2021.
No it would have been cancelled at this point. Have you ordered GCMS notes recently? What exactly was said in you appeal? Did it say your PRTD was approved? Did you ever get formal notice from IAD that your PRTD was approved?
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,969
12,771
As I have already mentioned getting a medical residency is extremely hard. Most Canadians who have studied medicine abroad end up doing residencies out of Canada. The majority end up in the US. The fact that you will have a difficult time securing a residency in Canada and may have to leave Canada again to complete one is something you have to consider as you are fighting so hard to come live in Canada. The person who interviewed you had no idea about medical training and I assume thought you could easily practice in Canada. Do you want to become a GP, so you want to live in a rural area and do you speak fluent French? Slightly better odds if that is the case. Some specialities will never have any available residencies for IMGs.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-internationally-trained-doctors-work-canada/
https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/i-was-working-nights-in-a-call-centre-third-dalhousie-trained-doctor-says-residency-rules-have-to-change-1.6242843
Could fill this page with similar articles.