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PR Residency Obligation demonstration

FReza

Star Member
Jun 8, 2017
79
6
Category........
FSW
Hi,

Just wanted to check, i have been reading on numerous platforms that people who have PR of less than 5 years. When they travel outside Canada and come back, they need to proof their residency obligation that they will be meeting 730 days in 5 year span.

I have made a soft landing this year and upon my return i will have 4 years left for my 5 year span to expire. But i was wondering how to demonstrate or proof it?

Anybody with recent experience on soft landing and return?

Thanks in advance
 

meyakanor

Hero Member
Jul 26, 2013
497
101
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
App. Filed.......
16-02-2012
Doc's Request.
26-02-2013
AOR Received.
21-03-2012
Med's Request
21-03-2013
Passport Req..
16-04-2013
VISA ISSUED...
29-04-2013
LANDED..........
16-05-2013
How long have you been a PR?

If you have been a PR for less than 3 years (from the landing date, NOT from the date on your PR card), then you could not have been possibly in breach of the residency obligation and they would not ask about RO.
 
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FReza

Star Member
Jun 8, 2017
79
6
Category........
FSW
Its been less than 3 years. My landing date is 16th Feb, 2018. Stayed there for 14 days and left. Now i am planning to permanently move in Apr-19. So i believe i have ample time to complete my 730 days.

So i have nothing to worry about questions or denial to enter Canada, right?
Was just over conscious as i am winding off every thing from here and wouldn't want any kind of hassle on Landing.
 

meyakanor

Hero Member
Jul 26, 2013
497
101
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
App. Filed.......
16-02-2012
Doc's Request.
26-02-2013
AOR Received.
21-03-2012
Med's Request
21-03-2013
Passport Req..
16-04-2013
VISA ISSUED...
29-04-2013
LANDED..........
16-05-2013
Its been less than 3 years. My landing date is 16th Feb, 2018. Stayed there for 14 days and left. Now i am planning to permanently move in Apr-19. So i believe i have ample time to complete my 730 days.

So i have nothing to worry about questions or denial to enter Canada, right?
Was just over conscious as i am winding off every thing from here and wouldn't want any kind of hassle on Landing.
You would never be denied entry to Canada. The worst that can happen is, they deem you inadmissible, but still let you enter the country where you can reside until it's decided.

Of course, since you have not been a PR for over 3 years, you should not be questioned about meeting RO. You may be questioned about other things (such as the purpose of your trip overseas, what you are carrying back, etc), and you can still be inadmissible if you have, say, criminal record or misrepresentation, but you would not have to worry about residency obligation (for now).
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
4,390
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So i have nothing to worry about questions or denial to enter Canada, right?
Was just over conscious as i am winding off every thing from here and wouldn't want any kind of hassle on Landing.
I concur in responses by @meyakanor

The so-called soft landing, pursuant to which an individual comes to Canada to effect "landing" and become a Permanent Resident, but soon exits Canada planning to return at a later date to settle and stay, is common and generally should not cause any problems.

As observed by @meyakanor a new PR cannot possibly be in breach of the PR Residency Obligation any time prior to the THIRD YEAR ANNIVERSARY of the landing date, because until the third year anniversary of landing there are still enough days left in the first five years to meet the PR RO. This is readily apparent on the face of things when a PR arrives in Canada and is examined at a PoE.



Re PR card:

A PR who returns to settle in Canada within a year or year and a half of the day they landed should have NO concerns. HOWEVER, for the PR's own convenience it is better if the PR can stay long enough following the landing to obtain a PR card before leaving. Otherwise, unless the PR has TRUSTED family or friend with a reliable address, and I do mean someone the PR can truly rely on to collect and in some way deliver the card to the new PR, when it comes time to come to Canada the new PR will need to apply for and obtain a PR Travel Document in order to board a flight to Canada. Depending on factors like which visa office the PR will need to make the application to, this can be rather inconvenient even though it should NOT be a problem.

The newly landed PR should promptly obtain a SIN as well. While this can be obtained later, after returning to Canada, last I am aware by that time the PR will need to have and present a valid PR card (cancelled visa and CoPR will suffice if SIN application made within a certain amount of time after landing), which if not obtained during the initial stay can take awhile after an application for it is made, which requires being IN Canada.


BEYOND THAT: there are scores and scores of anecdotal reports about PRs who planned to timely return to Canada but then Stuff Happens.

Soft-landing PRs who run into problems are those who delay returning to Canada to settle so long they are cutting-it-close, or as rather often happens, they delay their return so long they end up in breach of the PR RO. Generally, a plan to come and settle within the first two years is OK, allowing the PR both some time to accommodate an unexpected delay and, assuming the PR does in fact come and settle within or not much more than two years, accommodating potential travel abroad after arriving in Canada.

In particular, recognizing that even the best laid plans are prone to change, the longer the PR delays coming to settle the greater the risk some contingency in life will interfere and cause a further delay, potentially causing the PR to not settle in Canada in time to comply with the RO. This appears to happen rather often and this forum is rife with tales of woe told by those delayed due to business demands, family medical emergencies, marriage, pregnancy, among other reasons.

Similarly, for those who wait more than two years to come and settle, they are compromising how much of a margin they have in case they need to make an extended trip abroad after settling in Canada. For example, the PR who barely gets to Canada in time, say just a month short of the three year anniversary of landing, then only has the one month margin and for the NEXT TWO YEARS is basically tied to staying in Canada . . . again with problems arising if there is some event or circumstance, such as a parent's serious illness in the home country, compelling a trip for more than the margin left. (Foolishly, some new PRs appear to plan to make it back to Canada just barely in time, just days before they have been absent from Canada a total of 1095 days since landing, and in that circumstance they literally CANNOT travel abroad for the next two years without breaching the RO and risking loss of PR status.)

Observation regarding PoE examination for those cutting-it-close: The more the PR is cutting-it-close the more likely a PoE officer will REMIND the PR of the PR RO. This may come across as an admonishment but it is almost always intended to be a reminder, and even if it is an admonishment that has no detrimental effect on status. Not a problem.
 

FReza

Star Member
Jun 8, 2017
79
6
Category........
FSW
Thanks @meyakanor and @dpenabill for the quick and detailed answers. Now i feel quite relaxed with my moving back decision.

Just another quick one, for future reference. Say i have lived 730 years in Canada. How do i prove my stay in Canada for the number of days? Passport Stamps?
 

meyakanor

Hero Member
Jul 26, 2013
497
101
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
App. Filed.......
16-02-2012
Doc's Request.
26-02-2013
AOR Received.
21-03-2012
Med's Request
21-03-2013
Passport Req..
16-04-2013
VISA ISSUED...
29-04-2013
LANDED..........
16-05-2013
Thanks @meyakanor and @dpenabill for the quick and detailed answers. Now i feel quite relaxed with my moving back decision.

Just another quick one, for future reference. Say i have lived 730 years in Canada. How do i prove my stay in Canada for the number of days? Passport Stamps?
Remember that it's not simply having 731 days, but rather, 731 days within the past five years. Any day outside of the five year window would not count.

For example, let's say, today is September 6 2023, then the period to be considered for residency obligation would be Sep 7 2018 to Sep 6 2023. So days you spent in Canada before Sep 7 2018 would not count, and cannot be used to satisfy the residency obligation

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-sex-designation.html#appendixA


Passport stamps have ceased to become a reliable indicator of physical presence for quite a bit by now.

A lot of countries have automated kiosk systems for their citizens and no longer stamp their passports (US, Australia, EU, UK, China, etc). The US often did not even stamp non US citizens with still valid I-94. So relying on passport stamps is risky and prone to error and mistakes.

If most of your exits from Canada were to enter the United States, and you are not a US citizen or LPR, then you can look up your US entry history and use them to serve as exits from Canada (the I-94 website is surprisingly accurate for non-US citizens/non-US green card holders/non-Canadian citizens).

Otherwise, you can start from CBSA entry record (which you can request at any time free of cost, but would take about 5 to 6 weeks), and try matching each entry they have with your recollection of the exit that corresponds to that entry.

If you have a lot of trips, and as dpenabill mentioned repeatedly in other threads, the easiest way to show that you are physically present in Canada is by showing that you are maintaining residency in Canada.

That means, having a full time job which requires your presence in Canada (rather than one where you can conveniently work remotely), having a a property which you are living in and can easily prove so (instead of simply renting out the property to make profits).

Technically, it's not really a 'residency' requirement per se, but rather, a physical presence one (if there is only one thing that I agreed with the previous PC government, it's this one where they decided to do away with the vague notion of 'residency' and decided to simply use physical presence for even citizenship application).

So technically, one can work overseas full time or almost full-time, and only be physically present about 41 percent of the time in Canada, and all those days can technically be even spent in hotels or AirBnB, and you should still be fine. However, it would be very hard to convince IRCC and CBSA that you really are in Canada all these days, unless you have a super solid set of evidence (like daily hotel bills or something).
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
4,390
1,518
Say i have lived 730 years in Canada. How do i prove my stay in Canada for the number of days? Passport Stamps?
730 years eh . . . a bit optimistic eh

In any event, the short answer is that a PR who is settled and living a life in Canada should have no worries about proving presence so long as the PR (1) keeps an exact record of all travel dates, and (2) otherwise keeps the usual records people keep, related to paying rent, bills, and filing taxes, and so on.


The longer answer:

Passport stamps do NOT prove much at all, not much other than the fact the passport holder was going through border controls at that location on that date.

These days it is very common to go through some border control without getting a passport stamp. Thus, CBSA and IRCC will not rely on stamps to show every border crossing. Far from it.

In particular, Canada rarely stamps passports for travelers exiting Canada and a passport stamp showing an entry into a country other than Canada, for example, proves nothing at all about presence in Canada or when the individual left Canada. Similarly as to exit stamps from other countries, they will prove the individual was in that country on that date, albeit leaving. It supports an inference the individual was in that country, and thus NOT in Canada, the day before or more. At best, in conjunction with other evidence or indicators, it may support an INFERENCE the individual was traveling to Canada on that date.

A passport stamp showing an entry into Canada, for example, does not prove where the individual was the day after that, let alone a week or month later. Sure, there may be an inference the individual was in Canada from that date until the next known or reported date of exit, but the strength of that inference depends in large part whether there is other evidence to show the individual was actually IN Canada during that time.

Generally, most PRs do indeed benefit from an INFERENCE of presence in Canada between a known date of entry and the next known or reported date of exit, but that is in large part because the PR's reported AND at least to some extent VERIFIED address history, and history of work or other activity, in conjunction with the absence of indications the PR traveled abroad during that period, corroborate the PR's reported actual presence.

Regular employment for a readily recognized Canadian employer, working at a particular location in Canada, tends to be about as solid proof as one gets, especially when corroborated with lease agreement and rental receipts (or property tax receipts for owners) showing where the individual lived during all periods the PR claims to have been in Canada.

Here's the thing: those who are cutting-it-close risk a more skeptical RO determination. Those who actually settle and live in Canada permanently tend to create a rather substantial paper or digital trail of a life being lived in Canada, enough so it is usually well apparent in consideration of the work and address history information.

In contrast, the appearances and impressions, leaning into inferences, tend to go the other direction for those who are cutting-it-close, meaning those who either have been outside Canada more than in Canada (as in less than 900 days presence in the relevant five years) or who otherwise have not settled permanently, or appear to have not settled permanently in Canada.

Many if not most if not the vast majority of PRs will never be challenged, not much anyway, in regards to their compliance with the PR RO. They obviously live in Canada and meet the RO. Reference to a few corroborating facts readily illustrates this.

For those who do not obviously live in Canada, sure, proving presence can become an issue. For rather obvious reasons. And when it is an issue, there is less support for making the inference of presence between a reported date of entry and next reported date of exit.

That is, the more a PR might be asked to prove presence typically arises in circumstances where it is more difficult for the PR to present such proof. CBSA and IRCC tend to figure things out far, far better than many give them credit. Not always. Far from perfectly. But they mostly get it. So those who settle and stay, odds are great there will be NO problem. Those cutting-it-close, or appearing to possibly be gaming the system, the risks go up.
 

Guggu

Star Member
Aug 30, 2014
98
1
I concur in responses by @meyakanor

The so-called soft landing, pursuant to which an individual comes to Canada to effect "landing" and become a Permanent Resident, but soon exits Canada planning to return at a later date to settle and stay, is common and generally should not cause any problems.

As observed by @meyakanor a new PR cannot possibly be in breach of the PR Residency Obligation any time prior to the THIRD YEAR ANNIVERSARY of the landing date, because until the third year anniversary of landing there are still enough days left in the first five years to meet the PR RO. This is readily apparent on the face of things when a PR arrives in Canada and is examined at a PoE.



Re PR card:

A PR who returns to settle in Canada within a year or year and a half of the day they landed should have NO concerns. HOWEVER, for the PR's own convenience it is better if the PR can stay long enough following the landing to obtain a PR card before leaving. Otherwise, unless the PR has TRUSTED family or friend with a reliable address, and I do mean someone the PR can truly rely on to collect and in some way deliver the card to the new PR, when it comes time to come to Canada the new PR will need to apply for and obtain a PR Travel Document in order to board a flight to Canada. Depending on factors like which visa office the PR will need to make the application to, this can be rather inconvenient even though it should NOT be a problem.

The newly landed PR should promptly obtain a SIN as well. While this can be obtained later, after returning to Canada, last I am aware by that time the PR will need to have and present a valid PR card (cancelled visa and CoPR will suffice if SIN application made within a certain amount of time after landing), which if not obtained during the initial stay can take awhile after an application for it is made, which requires being IN Canada.


BEYOND THAT: there are scores and scores of anecdotal reports about PRs who planned to timely return to Canada but then Stuff Happens.

Soft-landing PRs who run into problems are those who delay returning to Canada to settle so long they are cutting-it-close, or as rather often happens, they delay their return so long they end up in breach of the PR RO. Generally, a plan to come and settle within the first two years is OK, allowing the PR both some time to accommodate an unexpected delay and, assuming the PR does in fact come and settle within or not much more than two years, accommodating potential travel abroad after arriving in Canada.

In particular, recognizing that even the best laid plans are prone to change, the longer the PR delays coming to settle the greater the risk some contingency in life will interfere and cause a further delay, potentially causing the PR to not settle in Canada in time to comply with the RO. This appears to happen rather often and this forum is rife with tales of woe told by those delayed due to business demands, family medical emergencies, marriage, pregnancy, among other reasons.

Similarly, for those who wait more than two years to come and settle, they are compromising how much of a margin they have in case they need to make an extended trip abroad after settling in Canada. For example, the PR who barely gets to Canada in time, say just a month short of the three year anniversary of landing, then only has the one month margin and for the NEXT TWO YEARS is basically tied to staying in Canada . . . again with problems arising if there is some event or circumstance, such as a parent's serious illness in the home country, compelling a trip for more than the margin left. (Foolishly, some new PRs appear to plan to make it back to Canada just barely in time, just days before they have been absent from Canada a total of 1095 days since landing, and in that circumstance they literally CANNOT travel abroad for the next two years without breaching the RO and risking loss of PR status.)

Observation regarding PoE examination for those cutting-it-close: The more the PR is cutting-it-close the more likely a PoE officer will REMIND the PR of the PR RO. This may come across as an admonishment but it is almost always intended to be a reminder, and even if it is an admonishment that has no detrimental effect on status. Not a problem.
hello Sir
I Stayed in Canada for 10 days from 16September 2015 till 26 september and then came back to my home country now I want to go back I need to show my 10 days stay in Canada to meet RO can I show the counterpart of boarding pass of the airline which I took back home with my name and travel date as a proof. Thanks in advance
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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hello Sir
I Stayed in Canada for 10 days from 16September 2015 till 26 september and then came back to my home country now I want to go back I need to show my 10 days stay in Canada to meet RO can I show the counterpart of boarding pass of the airline which I took back home with my name and travel date as a proof. Thanks in advance
IF a PR is asked to prove presence in Canada, for purposes of a PR Residency Obligation determination, the PR may proffer any relevant evidence tending to show or corroborate his or her time in Canada. So yes, a PR can present such evidence and it should be considered. That will not in itself actually prove presence in Canada.

Evidence is proof if it is sufficient to establish the fact in question. Even assuming the boarding pass is taken to be an accurate document showing you traveled that day, left Canada that day, that does not directly prove anything about where you were any other day. It may be more or less good evidence to support an inference that you were in Canada some previous days up UNTIL that day, and thus support the inference you were in Canada from the date of a known entry into Canada until that day.


BUT let's be frank: Canada is NOT likely to challenge your compliance with the PR Residency Obligation over a mere ten days which you claim to have been present in Canada. That is NOT how things work.

In particular, ten days one way or the other is NOT likely to make much difference in how CBSA approaches things at a PoE UNLESS CBSA has some additional concern about the PR.

And NOT likely to make much difference in how IRCC weighs the evidence of presence UNLESS:
-- it is processing a PR card application and the PR is living outside Canada (or is outside Canada for long enough to be thought of as living abroad) while the PR card application is in process, or
-- it is a visa office abroad processing a PR Travel Document application, or
-- there is some additional concern about the PR (suspicion of misrepresentation for example)
Thus, for example, if a PR who left after landing, who spent a total of just ten days in Canada soon after landing, arrives at a PoE before the 11th day after the third year anniversary of landing, the PR is technically in compliance with the PR RO. But more than that, this PR is NOT likely to face any problems about RO compliance (other than possibly being cautioned about the RO). If there is a challenge, it is very likely something else has triggered it.

Until the second half of Harper's reign at PM, or so, at any time during the first five years it appeared to be fairly safe to return to Canada with a valid PR card UNLESS it was blatantly obvious the PR had been away for MORE than three years. Then CBSA began screening some late returning PRs more closely . . . and in the actual cases addressed in officially published decisions, eventually we began seeing PRs reported even though their card was still valid for another year, then some with a card valid for a year and a half, or so.

Any PR actually in breach is now at risk. Obviously. But appearances and by how much matters. Risks can range from high probability of being reported to a minimal risk of even being questioned. In a number of topics others and I have gone into some detail about numerous factors which influence the risks of being questioned. And, separately, the risks of being reported IF and WHEN questioned about RO compliance.

If and when questioned about RO compliance at a PoE, if there is little or no question the PR has credit for 720 days, or so, including when that is based on the number of days remaining until the fifth year anniversary of the day the PR landed, and the PR reports having been in Canada an additional ten days, there is NOT going to be anything more negative than a caution about the RO UNLESS SOMETHING ELSE IS A CONCERN.


There seems to be some tendency, among some forum participants, to put way too weight on technical details.

Sure, sometimes the technical details make the difference. Thus, for example, if a PR was last in Canada three years plus some days ago, no calculation is necessary to recognize the PR is in breach of the PR Residency Obligation. And since both CBSA and IRCC are legally obligated to apply and enforce the law, there is a very substantial risk the PR will be challenged about compliance and have an opportunity to present his or her reasons for not returning to Canada sooner. That is, even if this is just over the line, because it is clearly over the line both CBSA and IRCC are obligated to approach and address it accordingly.

And, in contrast, if a PR arrives at a PoE the day before the PR's third year anniversary of the day the PR landed, even if it is obvious the PR was abroad 1093 days, and is thus cutting-it-very-very-close, there is no question the PR is technically in compliance with the RO and CANNOT be reported . . . cautioned (even admonished) about the RO, but NOT reported (recognizing, however, the CBSA border officer can make a note to FOSS about the amount of absence so as to alert other officers to be aware of this in future encounters with the PR).

So, again, yes, in particular or peculiar circumstances technical details can matter. And YES, of course, reporting facts accurately is very important. If a PR boards a trans-Pacific flight before midnight and arrives at his destination on a date two days later, it is an error to report the date of exit based on the entry date stamp in his passport; accurate date of exit is the date of actual exit.

BUT in practical terms many technical details are not so important, and particularly NOT, NOT USUALLY, as to totaling calculations . . . thus, a total calculation as to a day or three or thirteen, one way or another, tends to be of little import. Many other factors, including many aspects of how things APPEAR, will tend to have more or a lot more influence in how things go.

For example: if a PR shows up at a PoE three years and two months after the day of landing, at the PoE it is very unlikely CBSA will challenge the PR's compliance with the RO UNLESS it is readily apparent the PR was last in Canada three years or more ago.

I often emphasize the risks involved when cutting-it-close, but to some extent it works the other way as well: if CBSA or IRCC merely apprehend the PR is cutting-it-close, and there is no reason for concern beyond that, it is NOT likely CBSA or IRCC will challenge the PR . . . again, unless there is some additional reason for concern.

EASY EXAMPLE: The PR who returns to Canada just in time to NOT be reported and then stays . . . the conventional wisdom is this PR should wait at least TWO years to apply for a new PR card. If the PR makes the application five weeks SOONER than that, and is technically NOT in compliance with the PR RO, so long as the PR continues to STAY in Canada, that is NOT likely to cause a problem. The PR card application five weeks before the two years has about the same odds of being referred to Secondary Review as an application five weeks AFTER two years . . . and eventually both will most likely result in a new card being issued.

The risk the PR takes applying five weeks early is that IRCC opens it right away and schedules an interview for a PR RO determination on a date before the PR manages to reach the two year mark, and thus potentially facing a negative decision and Departure Order. BUT this is highly unlikely. (Actual odds vary with how much before reaching the two years the PR is, among other factors, compared to how long IRCC is taking to open and process PRC applications.) There is also some risk that even if IRCC does not process the application until after the PR has stayed two full years, technically it can deny the application for the new card . . . but as long as the PR is IN Canada, this is highly unlikely and this should be easily overcome by an appeal.

Make no mistake: obviously, if a PR has been outside Canada for three years, or nearly three years, but manages to come into Canada without being reported, the best course to follow is to wait the full two years before applying for a new card. Or making any other application to IRCC. Engaging in any transaction with IRCC while in breach has at least some risk of losing PR status.

IN THE MEANTIME: Remember that days in Canada NO LONGER will count if and when they were more than five years ago. Thus, days in Canada at the time of landing and shortly thereafter will NO LONGER get credit when a PR card application is made five years later. REMEMBER too that a valid PR card does not, in itself, mean much. In particular, it is NOT relevant to the calculation for PR RO compliance. It may be a factor in whether a PoE officer has questions (for a PR still within five years of landing, returning to Canada after an extended absence, less likely to be questioned if the card is still valid for at least close to two years, more likely to be questioned the sooner the card expires . . . but again, the date of expiration has NO relevance to the actual calculation of RO compliance).
 

Exorcist

Star Member
Feb 6, 2018
92
163
Hi guys,
I arrived in Canada on July 7, 2018 and I do not get my PR card yet. Can anyone tell me what do i do now?
I have my COPR with me and when I landed, immigration officer said it takes 6-8 weeks to get the PR card but now unfortunately its my 10th week in Toronto, Canada.
Thank you
 

gokul0989

Full Member
Apr 21, 2020
31
3
Hi Guys,

I landed in Canada on 03 Feb 2020 and returned to India on 06 Feb 2020. Since, I am under the 3 year time frame, I hope I meet the RO. Now, I am planning to apply fr PRTD to travel back to Canada. Will they ask me, the reason for returning to issue a PRTD. Also, will I be questioned at PoE about anything like proof of funds, since I did not stay longer during my first landing. I also got married after I completed my landing, so will it have an effect when I enter Canada. I would appreciate your reply.
 

canuck_in_uk

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
31,633
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Hi Guys,

I landed in Canada on 03 Feb 2020 and returned to India on 06 Feb 2020. Since, I am under the 3 year time frame, I hope I meet the RO. Now, I am planning to apply fr PRTD to travel back to Canada. Will they ask me, the reason for returning to issue a PRTD. Also, will I be questioned at PoE about anything like proof of funds, since I did not stay longer during my first landing. I also got married after I completed my landing, so will it have an effect when I enter Canada. I would appreciate your reply.
https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/prtd-residency-obligation-urgent.544947/