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PR residence calculator - Help needed to verify the days

low

Star Member
Dec 31, 2009
83
3
Hi,

My spouse will be eligible to renew his PR soon. But, we are unsure if our calculations are correct and would appreciate some input from the seniors in this forum :

Example :
May 31 2012 ( in)
June 12 2012 ( out)

Days in canada is 13 days? Or, is it 12 days??

Thanks
 

ttrajan

Champion Member
Oct 14, 2013
2,237
49
Category........
AINP
Job Offer........
Yes
LANDED..........
15-08-2012
13 days. Always keep some months more than 2 years for PR card renewal. If you keep just 2 years, then PR card renewal may be delayed for years.
 

low

Star Member
Dec 31, 2009
83
3
ttrajan said:
13 days. Always keep some months more than 2 years for PR card renewal. If you keep just 2 years, then PR card renewal may be delayed for years.
Thanks....what if he transits via Canada i.e In and Out on the same day. Is that considered 1 day or 0 days?
 

low

Star Member
Dec 31, 2009
83
3
ttrajan said:
Yes. How long did you stay in Canada?
Just couple of hours because he was in the USA for meeting...came back to canada and left on the same day. Would that be considered 1 day? Or, should it be left out from the list of absences?
 

Leon

VIP Member
Jun 13, 2008
21,950
1,318
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
low said:
Just couple of hours because he was in the USA for meeting...came back to canada and left on the same day. Would that be considered 1 day? Or, should it be left out from the list of absences?
You should list all trips but a same day or an overnight trip to the US counts as zero days absence because any part of a day spent in Canada counts as a full day towards the PR residency obligation.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,284
3,045
low said:
Just couple of hours because he was in the USA for meeting...came back to canada and left on the same day. Would that be considered 1 day? Or, should it be left out from the list of absences?
Every trip should be accurately reported. Nothing short of that.

As far as I can discern, every day for which any part of the calendar day was spent in Canada counts as a day in Canada. What I more confidently understand is that a day started in Canada counts even though the PR exits Canada that day, and a day ending in Canada counts even though the PR entered Canada that day.

However, if such days make the difference between a calculation barely meeting the minimum 730 days and one falling short of 730 days, the probability of elevated scrutiny and an extended processing time is high, and moreover, depending on other factors and circumstances, there may be a substantial risk a stranger bureaucrat at IRCC will be skeptical about the accounting and conclude the PR has failed to prove compliance. If this happens, the impact could depend on whether the PR is settled in Canada and has mostly remained in Canada while the PR card application was in process.


Thus, beyond the mechanics of calculating days, a CAUTION is warranted:

Cutting it close can be risky.

How many days the PR was in Canada is only part of the equation. If subject to elevated scrutiny, the standard that counts, that really matters, is how many days the PR actually proves (to the satisfaction of a stranger bureaucrat at IRCC) he or she was in Canada.

It is not what you know. It is what you can prove.

Or, to be more precise, if subject to a formal Residency Determination, it is what is what you actually prove. (Thus, for example, does no good after a negative decision, to shout "oh wait, I got proof." By then it is too late. Subject to possibly introducing additional evidence at an appeal to the IAD.)



Overall, for the PR who is well-settled and remaining in Canada after applying for the card, cutting it close mostly risks some elevated scrutiny and delay in obtaining a new PR card. For the PR who continues to spend extended periods of time abroad, particularly one working or otherwise living abroad, cutting it close risks a negative outcome and, depending on the particulars, potentially the loss of PR status.



The (longer) explanation:

I interpret this particular day to be about a day trip to Canada, from the U.S.

Again, report every cross-border trip and go ahead and count every day for which any part of the calendar day was spent in Canada. But if days like this matter, if counting these days is necessary to meet the minimum, that is not a good sign. Actually, that (with some exceptions, such as for the PR otherwise clearly well-settled in Canada and continuing to live and stay in Canada), is more likely to be a bad sign.

And even otherwise, if five days here, and two days there, or even a few weeks here and there, matter much, that too is not a good sign (with similar exceptions).

As already suggested, 730 days within the previous five years is the absolute minimum and a significant margin above that is highly recommended.

Again, how many days the PR was in Canada is only part of the equation. The standard that counts, that matters, is how many days the PR actually proves (to the satisfaction of a stranger bureaucrat at IRCC) he or she was in Canada.

It is often overlooked that the PR Residency Obligation is not intended to facilitate living abroad. As numerous IAD panels and Federal Court Justices have oft reiterated, in officially interpreting the intent and proper application of the PR RO, the obligation is specifically intended to be flexible enough to accommodate exceptional circumstances, so that PRs who encounter unusual (but nonetheless somewhat common) situations compelling spending an extended period of time abroad do not have to worry about the vagaries of discretion in applying an indefinite standard. It is NOT intended to accommodate those whose lifestyles or choices do not constitute becoming in fact permanent residents in Canada.

Elevated scrutiny and potential delays, and perhaps a more or less skeptical approach to assessing the applicant's case, await the PR who applies for a new card and who is not both:
-- clearly settled in Canada
and
-- clearly has more than the mere minimum of presence required

Not just settled in Canada. Not just at least the minimum amount of presence. But both and each CLEARLY so.

Protestations that this is not fair, based on the proposition that meeting the minimum technical requirements should be sufficient, miss the point. The PR who sufficiently proves the minimum requirements have been met will not lose PR status and, eventually, will be issued a new card. What constitutes sufficient proof, however, can be problematic. In particular, proving where one was each and every day can be a rather difficult hurdle, and the more short of clearly having settled in Canada and clearly having met the minimum requirements the more skeptical IRCC is wont to be, the more IRCC will lean toward inferring a day of absence for any days not definitively documented to have been spent in Canada.

It is worth remembering, after all, that the most reasonable inference about where a person was on any given day, absent clear proof that on that particular day the person was in Canada, is that the person was where that person otherwise was most of the time. Thus, for any PR who was in Canada less than 900 days within the preceding five years (preceding 1825 days), the reasonable inference is that the PR was outside Canada unless the PR has convincingly documented being in Canada. To what extent this factors into IRCC's assessment is more about other, additional factors and circumstances, but the more obvious and significant factors are the extent to which it appears the PR is settled permanently in Canada, and secondly the extent to which there is objective documentation to show time in Canada (documentation showing regular employment working at a location in Canada, for a recognizable employer, not a small business run by family or friend for example, is perhaps the best such evidence).
 

textima

Newbie
Aug 17, 2017
1
0
Every trip should be accurately reported. Nothing short of that.

As far as I can discern, every day for which any part of the calendar day was spent in Canada counts as a day in Canada. What I more confidently understand is that a day started in Canada counts even though the PR exits Canada that day, and a day ending in Canada counts even though the PR entered Canada that day.

However, if such days make the difference between a calculation barely meeting the minimum 730 days and one falling short of 730 days, the probability of elevated scrutiny and an extended processing time is high, and moreover, depending on other factors and circumstances, there may be a substantial risk a stranger bureaucrat at IRCC will be skeptical about the accounting and conclude the PR has failed to prove compliance. If this happens, the impact could depend on whether the PR is settled in Canada and has mostly remained in Canada while the PR card application was in process.


Thus, beyond the mechanics of calculating days, a CAUTION is warranted:

Cutting it close can be risky.

How many days the PR was in Canada is only part of the equation. If subject to elevated scrutiny, the standard that counts, that really matters, is how many days the PR actually proves (to the satisfaction of a stranger bureaucrat at IRCC) he or she was in Canada.

It is not what you know. It is what you can prove.

Or, to be more precise, if subject to a formal Residency Determination, it is what is what you actually prove. (Thus, for example, does no good after a negative decision, to shout "oh wait, I got proof." By then it is too late. Subject to possibly introducing additional evidence at an appeal to the IAD.)



Overall, for the PR who is well-settled and remaining in Canada after applying for the card, cutting it close mostly risks some elevated scrutiny and delay in obtaining a new PR card. For the PR who continues to spend extended periods of time abroad, particularly one working or otherwise living abroad, cutting it close risks a negative outcome and, depending on the particulars, potentially the loss of PR status.



The (longer) explanation:

I interpret this particular day to be about a day trip to Canada, from the U.S.

Again, report every cross-border trip and go ahead and count every day for which any part of the calendar day was spent in Canada. But if days like this matter, if counting these days is necessary to meet the minimum, that is not a good sign. Actually, that (with some exceptions, such as for the PR otherwise clearly well-settled in Canada and continuing to live and stay in Canada), is more likely to be a bad sign.

And even otherwise, if five days here, and two days there, or even a few weeks here and there, matter much, that too is not a good sign (with similar exceptions).

As already suggested, 730 days within the previous five years is the absolute minimum and a significant margin above that is highly recommended.

Again, how many days the PR was in Canada is only part of the equation. The standard that counts, that matters, is how many days the PR actually proves (to the satisfaction of a stranger bureaucrat at IRCC) he or she was in Canada.

It is often overlooked that the PR Residency Obligation is not intended to facilitate living abroad. As numerous IAD panels and Federal Court Justices have oft reiterated, in officially interpreting the intent and proper application of the PR RO, the obligation is specifically intended to be flexible enough to accommodate exceptional circumstances, so that PRs who encounter unusual (but nonetheless somewhat common) situations compelling spending an extended period of time abroad do not have to worry about the vagaries of discretion in applying an indefinite standard. It is NOT intended to accommodate those whose lifestyles or choices do not constitute becoming in fact permanent residents in Canada.

Elevated scrutiny and potential delays, and perhaps a more or less skeptical approach to assessing the applicant's case, await the PR who applies for a new card and who is not both:
-- clearly settled in Canada
and
-- clearly has more than the mere minimum of presence required

Not just settled in Canada. Not just at least the minimum amount of presence. But both and each CLEARLY so.

Protestations that this is not fair, based on the proposition that meeting the minimum technical requirements should be sufficient, miss the point. The PR who sufficiently proves the minimum requirements have been met will not lose PR status and, eventually, will be issued a new card. What constitutes sufficient proof, however, can be problematic. In particular, proving where one was each and every day can be a rather difficult hurdle, and the more short of clearly having settled in Canada and clearly having met the minimum requirements the more skeptical IRCC is wont to be, the more IRCC will lean toward inferring a day of absence for any days not definitively documented to have been spent in Canada.

It is worth remembering, after all, that the most reasonable inference about where a person was on any given day, absent clear proof that on that particular day the person was in Canada, is that the person was where that person otherwise was most of the time. Thus, for any PR who was in Canada less than 900 days within the preceding five years (preceding 1825 days), the reasonable inference is that the PR was outside Canada unless the PR has convincingly documented being in Canada. To what extent this factors into IRCC's assessment is more about other, additional factors and circumstances, but the more obvious and significant factors are the extent to which it appears the PR is settled permanently in Canada, and secondly the extent to which there is objective documentation to show time in Canada (documentation showing regular employment working at a location in Canada, for a recognizable employer, not a small business run by family or friend for example, is perhaps the best such evidence).
How many days a person have to live continues in 730 days for PR
 

StonicStone

Hero Member
Jan 5, 2017
210
41
Category........
NOC Code......
4011
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
AOR Received.
03-03-2017
Med's Done....
22-02-2017 (Passed: 20-04-2017)
It does not have to be continuous, but can be accumulative within the 5 year period.
 

mgnlky

Champion Member
Jan 22, 2016
1,558
275
Vancouver
Category........
FSW
Visa Office......
Ottawa
NOC Code......
1122
Pre-Assessed..
Yes
App. Filed.......
22-12-2016
AOR Received.
22-12-2016
Med's Done....
04-11-2016
Passport Req..
22-3-2017
LANDED..........
04-09-2017
Thanks....what if he transits via Canada i.e In and Out on the same day. Is that considered 1 day or 0 days?
When I landed, the agent told me as long as I was present in Canada for one minute of the day, it counted as a full day.