PR Renewal - Time Spent Outside of Canada with Canadian Spouse Proof of Address

[Nunuc]

Hi,

I have read through the forum regularly and it has been an invaluable source of information. As I am about to send in my renewal documents, I wanted to consult the unparalleled experience this forum houses about the following.

Intro - My spouse and small daughter are Canadian, I am a PR. Since landing, I have worked as an international civil servant and have been posted to several countries. My family accompanied me and I am applying for renewal on the basis of time spent with Canadian spouse abroad. All in all, in the immediate 5 year period, the combined total of time outside Canada with spouse and time in Canada comes to just over 1,400 days out of a possible 1,825. The rest of the time, my wife and daughter were in Canada while I was abroad - my wife completed an MA and will hopefully soon get a job decent enough for us to all live here comfortably. We are currently in Canada as I will be teleworking for the next 3 months and will use the period to renew my PR card which expires in March 2021.

My questions is related to proof of us residing abroad. Thanks to the nature of my work, it has been easy to obtain letters from my organization and respective Ministries of Foreign Affairs showing my accredited status and the presence of my family at the duty station. Together with this, I have my wife's passport with all the stamps as well as our diplomatic ID's. In one case, my wife worked for the same organization as me as a secondee of the Canadian Government and we have emails from the Canadian government notifying her of her secondment and posting as well as the organization's attestation letters showing us both employed at the same time. So far so good.

The problem comes when it comes to proof of address. All the countries we were in would not have many options for us to provide proof of address - we used our international bank in all cases, a joint account on our Canadian address; utility bills were either included in the rent or were paid by landlords with us paying them back; phones were provided by the mission. Our diplomatic status also meant that we are tax-exempt and anything with local authorities got handled by Ministries of Foreign Affairs.

With all this in mind, I assembled the following proof in addition to the stuff mentioned above:

Country A:

1. Sworn affidavit from landlady saying she owned the property we were renting and that we all lived at the property as a family.
2. Lease agreement (my name is listed as the Lessee)
3. Letter of attestation from our organization showing both my wife and I employed at the same mission, with her seconded by the Canadian Government.
3. Daughter's daycare enrollment and invoice which lists my wife and me as the parents and has our local address.

In country A, there is a bit of an issue with passport stamps as we received them only when entering via air - since we mostly traveled via road, we would be just waved through on the basis of our organization's ID documents which showed us to be international civil servants in the territory in questions.

Country B:

1. Lease agreement (my name is listed as the Lessee). Have been trying unsuccessfully to reach the landlord to provide sworn affidavit that we all lived at the dwelling.
2. Signed statement and contract from the company providing residence security that lists the property address and the three of us as inhabitants living at the dwelling and enjoying the protection of the security company.
3. Signed statement from the Canadian High Commissioner in the country acknowledging our presence in the country and visiting us at the aforementioned address.
4. Daughter's Nursery enrolment for the time period in question.
5. Medical reports for my wife and daughter which list the address.
6. Letters from the organization notifying the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of my deployment and my family's arrival in the country.
6. Ministry of Foreign Affairs ID cards for myself, my wife, and my daughter (no address)

Country C:

1. Lease agreement (my name is listed as the Lessee)
2. Letter from the organization I work for about my employment status, who is accompanying me at the duty station and our address at the duty station.
3. My wife's medical and pharmacy invoices which show her name and address in the country.
4. Ministry of Foreign Affairs ID cards for myself and my family.

Is there anything else that I need or is this sufficient? For Country C we also have my wife's credit card statements which shows purchases in the country but the statement and card are listed for our Canadian address. Should I include these as well?

On the experience here, is this above sufficient? It should also be noted that all the countries are third countries to which none of us have any ties and it is established on basis of passports, tickets, and official documents that we were all there at the same time, including our toddler/young daughter so I am wondering whether there is a dose of relying on common sense that we lived together in these situations. I will also explain in a letter, that certain processes in these countries are different and that registering for services and utilities is quite different and less efficient than in Canada (and that diplomats and foreigners are largely excluded from it completely).

Thank you all very much in advance and apologies for the long post.

 

[scylla]

Hi,

I have read through the forum regularly and it has been an invaluable source of information. As I am about to send in my renewal documents, I wanted to consult the unparalleled experience this forum houses about the following.

Intro - My spouse and small daughter are Canadian, I am a PR. Since landing, I have worked as an international civil servant and have been posted to several countries. My family accompanied me and I am applying for renewal on the basis of time spent with Canadian spouse abroad. All in all, in the immediate 5 year period, the combined total of time outside Canada with spouse and time in Canada comes to just over 1,400 days out of a possible 1,825. The rest of the time, my wife and daughter were in Canada while I was abroad - my wife completed an MA and will hopefully soon get a job decent enough for us to all live here comfortably. We are currently in Canada as I will be teleworking for the next 3 months and will use the period to renew my PR card which expires in March 2021.

My questions is related to proof of us residing abroad. Thanks to the nature of my work, it has been easy to obtain letters from my organization and respective Ministries of Foreign Affairs showing my accredited status and the presence of my family at the duty station. Together with this, I have my wife's passport with all the stamps as well as our diplomatic ID's. In one case, my wife worked for the same organization as me as a secondee of the Canadian Government and we have emails from the Canadian government notifying her of her secondment and posting as well as the organization's attestation letters showing us both employed at the same time. So far so good.

The problem comes when it comes to proof of address. All the countries we were in would not have many options for us to provide proof of address - we used our international bank in all cases, a joint account on our Canadian address; utility bills were either included in the rent or were paid by landlords with us paying them back; phones were provided by the mission. Our diplomatic status also meant that we are tax-exempt and anything with local authorities got handled by Ministries of Foreign Affairs.

With all this in mind, I assembled the following proof in addition to the stuff mentioned above:

Country A:

1. Sworn affidavit from landlady saying she owned the property we were renting and that we all lived at the property as a family.
2. Lease agreement (my name is listed as the Lessee)
3. Letter of attestation from our organization showing both my wife and I employed at the same mission, with her seconded by the Canadian Government.
3. Daughter's daycare enrollment and invoice which lists my wife and me as the parents and has our local address.

In country A, there is a bit of an issue with passport stamps as we received them only when entering via air - since we mostly traveled via road, we would be just waved through on the basis of our organization's ID documents which showed us to be international civil servants in the territory in questions.

Country B:

1. Lease agreement (my name is listed as the Lessee). Have been trying unsuccessfully to reach the landlord to provide sworn affidavit that we all lived at the dwelling.
2. Signed statement and contract from the company providing residence security that lists the property address and the three of us as inhabitants living at the dwelling and enjoying the protection of the security company.
3. Signed statement from the Canadian High Commissioner in the country acknowledging our presence in the country and visiting us at the aforementioned address.
4. Daughter's Nursery enrolment for the time period in question.
5. Medical reports for my wife and daughter which list the address.
6. Letters from the organization notifying the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of my deployment and my family's arrival in the country.
6. Ministry of Foreign Affairs ID cards for myself, my wife, and my daughter (no address)

Country C:

1. Lease agreement (my name is listed as the Lessee)
2. Letter from the organization I work for about my employment status, who is accompanying me at the duty station and our address at the duty station.
3. My wife's medical and pharmacy invoices which show her name and address in the country.
4. Ministry of Foreign Affairs ID cards for myself and my family.

Is there anything else that I need or is this sufficient? For Country C we also have my wife's credit card statements which shows purchases in the country but the statement and card are listed for our Canadian address. Should I include these as well?

On the experience here, is this above sufficient? It should also be noted that all the countries are third countries to which none of us have any ties and it is established on basis of passports, tickets, and official documents that we were all there at the same time, including our toddler/young daughter so I am wondering whether there is a dose of relying on common sense that we lived together in these situations. I will also explain in a letter, that certain processes in these countries are different and that registering for services and utilities is quite different and less efficient than in Canada (and that diplomats and foreigners are largely excluded from it completely).

Thank you all very much in advance and apologies for the long post.

To make sure you're aware, IRCC may not allow you to count this time. They have become a bit more specific about how they apply this rule over the last little while, specifically who accompanied who. The rule technically allows you to count the time if you were accompanying your Canadian spouse abroad. In this case it's quite clear your spouse was accompanying you, meaning your job was the reason you were abroad. So you may be out of luck. I would submit with the evidence you have and hope for the best.

 

[canuck78]

How long did you spend in Canada right after getting your PR?

 

[k.h.p.]

Was your wife "seconded by the Canadian government" for all this travels, from DFAIT? That may help a little.

 

[Nunuc]

Hi - thanks so much for the quick replies and sorry for not getting back sooner.

Scylla - In terms of who is accompanying who - I have seen a number of posts on this forum to this effect and have taken consultations with lawyers in TO and Ottawa on the same issue. Basically, there seems to be a trend as you have indicated but also what other option do I have than to send it in? I guess the steps if it is applied in that manner will be to go the H&C route and, failing that, a new sponsorship which would be frustrating from a bureaucratic point of view but certainly not an impossibility.

Canuck 78- On my own timeline in Canada, until coming back just now, I had spent 130 days in Canada, the bulk since purchasing a house 2 years ago. The initial landing saw us stay here for three weeks - that was quite a wake-up call as it made me realize how long some things would take (build up a credit history, real estate market, job market, etc.) It did however help us make a plan that we have been sticking to ever since landing.

While it may seem slow, our progress has been in the right direction - purchasing a house, me learning French, my wife going back to university, and finishing her MA this year that gives her good odds at a Government job. My biggest problem is my own employment - for my line of work, you need security clearances that are available only to citizens. It is simply too big a risk to take pull up anchor and move here without my wife securing work first (and to be fair, she has had a test/interview with Govt every week almost since June but it all takes time). My thinking is that once she gets in, I can also go back to school and do a bit of consulting for the UN/EU while I wait for citizenship - I have developed excellent links and networks in Global Affairs Canada and I do know that my profile is needed and welcome there. The problem of course is just securing 'more time' for it all to fall into place so that I can finally say goodbye to this nomadic lifestyle which gets really, really tiring when you have a family (and are pushing 40 yourself ).

K.H.P - On the issue of my wife's secondment - she was seconded to the OSCE by the Government from March 2016 to June 2017. We worked on the same mission. I guess in this case we can make claims that I accompanied her although, if they really do want to be strict about all this, I did get a job in that mission before her.

Should I put any of this stuff in my letter/application for renewal? I am torn between 'giving too much information' and bombarding overworked staff with dozens of documents and pages while also inclined to give them a full story on how we are going about all of this.

 

[k.h.p.]

All I can say is good luck; she's definitely accompanying you, and if IRCC's analysts take issue with that you seem to have a good grasp of the process ahead of you. Hopefully it won't impact you.

 

[Nunuc]

Thanks - I guess the most important thing is to ensure there is no damage to what we have done so far (all our funds are here, house, mortgage, car, etc.) and that we have a path to protecting the life we have built. Although those 12 month processing times for family sponsorship do look daunting (I guess I can still come and go on a valid visa if need be?)

As for the who is accompanying who, just an interesting anecdote - the paid consultations I have had, the lawyers were adamant that it is not an issue and that all it matters that we were together at the same place. What I have read here however in past posts is much more detailed and evidence-driven hence I am quite worried. It would be great if this issue is a little bit more mainstreamed, above all by the IRCC which could explain it better as these are evolving trends.

 

[k.h.p.]

As for the who is accompanying who, just an interesting anecdote - the paid consultations I have had, the lawyers were adamant that it is not an issue and that all it matters that we were together at the same place. What I have read here however in past posts is much more detailed and evidence-driven hence I am quite worried. It would be great if this issue is a little bit more mainstreamed, above all by the IRCC which could explain it better as these are evolving trends.

This is mostly because the IAD (the appeals division of IRCC) isn't really good at interpreting and applying precedent. This is increasingly IRCC's argument as to how the regulations ought to be interpreted, but the various statutory decision makers at IAD go both ways on these questions.

Immigration lawyers on the other side of the equation are opposed to this interpretation, which is why they often say "it isn't an issue" but then are surprised when they read developments that indicate it is.

 

[Nunuc]

I guess all I can do is what is in my power and hope for the best. I do feel that on the basis of our entire circumstances, and the eligibility for renewed sponsorship, they would rather just extend me rather than force us to go through a longer process that would give the same result. Then again, I doubt they will give this much consideration to what is just one in a line of thousands of applications

One thing that just came to me - since I will be teleworking from Canada for at least the next 3 months, would it maybe be more beneficial for me to apply for my renewal once my PR card expires in March? That would give me over 220 days physically in Canada and would move the 5 year period being assessed to the moment my wife joined the OSCE. That would give me 704 days plus the parts from Country B and C when she is accompanying me. This is still below the 730 thresholds but do you think it would make a stronger case? Especially as these lockdowns and border closures may mean that I spend even more time here. Or is it better to apply now with all that I have and just give myself more time to react in case I get a negative answer?

Thanks a lot, this forum has been invaluable to me since I started my original application and I really appreciate not just the expertise but also the candour and straightforwardness.

 

[dpenabill]

My questions is related to proof of us residing abroad. . . .
The problem comes when it comes to proof of address. . . .
With all this in mind, I assembled the following proof in addition to the stuff mentioned above . . .

Should I put any of this stuff in my letter/application for renewal? I am torn between 'giving too much information' and bombarding overworked staff with dozens of documents and pages while also inclined to give them a full story on how we are going about all of this.

Foremost, FOLLOW the instructions. With some exceptions (such as where information provided needs supplemental information to clarify it, to avoid being misleading for example), it is best to submit what is requested and NO MORE. Better to not include what is typically called "proof," for example, other than what the checklist specifies.

Regarding what to submit to claim credit for time abroad accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse, last I reviewed the forms (looking at the IMM 5444 (02-2019) version and item 22, situation 1), all you need to submit is proof of the relationship (marriage certificate for example) and proof of the spouse's Canadian citizenship (copy of passport identification pages or certificate of citizenship) and list the dates, address, and number of days you were living together abroad.

Overall, in the usual case, qualifying for the accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad credit simply requires showing there is --

-- a marital relationship with​

-- a Canadian citizen spouse, and​

-- you were living together abroad​

THE POSSIBILITY OF A WHO-ACCOMPANIED-WHOM ISSUE:

Generally I defer to qualified professionals. And given what you have been advised, that strongly suggests there is a low probability you will have a problem getting the credit for days abroad that you and your citizen spouse were living together. (I may be a bit at odds with other forum participants in this regard.)

If the lawyer was as adamant there is no possible who-accompanied-whom issue, none at all possible (if the couple are living together), as it seems you might saying, that may be a little bit disconcerting. Obviously we know, from official sources, that sometimes who-accompanied-whom can be considered and make a difference. I have cited and linked several such OFFICIAL sources.

It makes a difference if the lawyer was saying:

there is no who-accompanied-whom question at all for any PRs (abroad with citizen spouse)​

versus​

YOU, in your situation, do NOT need to worry about a who-accompanied-whom issue​

As noted, we know the first of these is not true. The latter, in contrast, may be a well-founded assessment of your situation in particular.

It is probably safe to still say (notwithstanding some possible trend-indicators there is increased attention and consideration given to this issue) that why the couple are abroad (such as, who has the job that leads the couple to live abroad) is NOT asked, NOT considered, NOT relevant . . . IN MOST CASES.

BUT how it goes in the individual case does not depend on how things go in most cases. It depends on the facts and circumstances in the individual case.

With the exception of some isolated anecdotal examples, involving CBSA officials at a PoE rather than IRCC officials, the cases in which the who-accompanied-whom issue is addressed, and applied against the PR, tend to be the more extreme examples in which it is quite apparent the PR was not at all established in Canada, let alone settled in Canada, and it is readily apparent the citizen moved abroad to be with the PR abroad . . . cases which quite likely are seen as overt abuse of the system. In most, egregiously so.

So the individual facts in your case matter. Despite the apparent "trend" there is little or no sign that IRCC is increasingly focused on generally evaluating who-accompanied-whom whenever a PR claims the accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad credit. Neither the PR card application or the PR Travel Document application ask for information regarding who-accompanied-whom or information about why the couple is living abroad.

Among factors which may influence whether the who-accompanied-whom question even arises is whether the travel or absence history shows the couple traveling abroad together (not necessarily the same time, but relatively close in time) . . . in contrast, for example, to circumstances in which it appears the citizen spouse was living in Canada while the PR was living abroad, and the citizen spouse appears (based on timing) to have moved abroad to be with the PR. The latter can be seen to have raised the red flag leading to a negative approach to this credit.


ALL THAT SAID . . . the facts you describe suggest your situation could be a closer-call than what it appears the lawyer(s) have opined.

Hard to forecast since you have significantly more days actually IN Canada than PRs had in the vast majority of the actual cases officially reported where the who-accompanied-whom issued loomed problematically, but few enough to be within the range of some of those cases.

I am not suggesting you share additional details here to facilitate further analysis of your personal situation. This is not a suitable venue for obtaining that sort of personal evaluation and advice.

Which leads to your last query:

. . . since I will be teleworking from Canada for at least the next 3 months, would it maybe be more beneficial for me to apply for my renewal once my PR card expires in March? That would give me over 220 days physically in Canada and would . . . give me 704 days plus the parts from Country B and C when she is accompanying me. This is still below the 730 thresholds but do you think it would make a stronger case?

That sort of analysis and advice is WAY outside what can be reasonably relied on in a venue like this. Many more details are important. Too many to share here. Too many variables and contingencies for anyone here to offer an opinion about this that can be relied on much if at all.


Delay Getting New PR card Before Going Abroad Again; Being Abroad Without a Valid PR card:

At the least, it is likely you will not be getting a new PR card again for some time, and a significant risk you will encounter some level of non-routine processing that delays getting the new PR card before you need to go abroad again. There is a significant risk you will be one of those who needs to pick-up the card in person (not mailed directly to you).

Assuming you will need a PR Travel Document to return to Canada if you are abroad without a valid PR card, note that the visa offices abroad seem to be more strict in evaluating these questions than IRCC in Canada.

In contrast, if you can travel to Canada via the U.S. after your PR card expires and you have not received a new card, the risk of this issue causing a problem at the PoE could depend on whether you and your spouse are traveling together.

OVERALL . . . given the lawyer's advice, given a history tending to show you are in the process of getting established in Canada, given significant presence in Canada and current presence in Canada, it is probably fair to say you have good odds there will NOT be a serious problem, and very good odds of a H&C alternative even if the who-accompanied-whom issue looms problematically. And in any event the fall-back get-sponsored-for-PR if necessary option.

I would caution, nonetheless, even if you get a new PR card without much problem, remember the PR Residency Obligation is ongoing and even with a new PR card, and particularly if you are not traveling with your spouse upon arrival in Canada, you could encounter a PoE examination about RO compliance and the who-accompanied-whom issue could be a factor in how that goes.

 

[Nunuc]

Hi dpenabill - indeed, I have read your previous posts on who accompanied whom which is one of the reasons I am a little worried about all this despite what the lawyers said. As you said, they never ask for any evidence as to who accompanied whom but there has been a trend.

In terms of our movements, they have been quite organic - we have been outside of Canada (my wife had an international career as well) and always together (until the purchase of our Canadian home and my wife's return to school with the aim of working for Government). Our priority has always been to be together as we are a very young family. In that sense, I am confident that there is nothing suspicious there along the lines of my wife moving just to get me to a specific number of days.

It is surprising to hear that my days in Canada are considered sizeable - they were mostly accumulated since we purchased the house and it is easy to prove that every free/leave day that I had was spent in Canada. In fact, I have spent only 2 days in my country of nationality in the last 5 years so it is not like I am maintaining any real links there.

On the amount of proof that I am to submit, I am following the instruction manual:

Supporting documents may include:

• Mandatory:
  • all passports or other travel documents that the person you are accompanying used in the five (5) years before the application;
  • documents showing the citizenship of the person you are accompanying, including the date the person became a Canadian citizen;
  • proof of the residential addresses of the person you are accompanying for the five (5) years before the application;
  • marriage licence or proof of common-law partnership (if you are accompanying a spouse or common-law partner);
  • child’s birth certificate, baptismal document, or adoption or legal guardianship document (if you are accompanying a parent);
• You may also include:
  • Canadian Income Tax Notice of Assessment (NOA) for the past two (2) years
  • school or employment records;
  • association or club memberships;
  • any other documents you want us to consider.

The 'proof' of residential address is my main concern as living in these post-conflict or transitional societies, that is not very well organized (within a day of landing in Canada I had a proof of address and it is incredibly easy to retrace all my steps in Canada through car, house insurance, bank statements, tax assessments, etc. but in the context of moving around for work, all I have is sworn statements, leases, and letters from my organization). Hence I am trying to establish that proof as requested.

The any other documents always gets me as well - I remember discussing a couple of years ago on this forum regarding a visa for my parents to visit us in Canada. I went completely overboard with documentation, writing the whole life story and why we want them here - they got a single entry visa. A few months later they applied with just proof of my relationship to them and they got a 10-year multi-entry. I am keen not to overburden them but then again, I feel that the whole thing may look weird without context so I send in more but am really looking to strike the right balance hence the listing of stuff above.

Thanks a lot.

 

[armoured]

The 'proof' of residential address is my main concern as living in these post-conflict or transitional societies, that is not very well organized (within a day of landing in Canada I had a proof of address and it is incredibly easy to retrace all my steps in Canada through car, house insurance, bank statements, tax assessments, etc. but in the context of moving around for work, all I have is sworn statements, leases, and letters from my organization). Hence I am trying to establish that proof as requested.

As far as this particular issue, proving residential address: I don't think you need to worry about this so much. Include a short letter of explanation that for mission/organisation operational (and likely security) reasons, official registered address was generally at the registered address of the organisation.

I don't think this is that unusual - for example, I believe not uncommon for Canadians at diplomatic missions to have their 'official address' for all local purposes at missions be the official mission address.

I doubt much more is needed than this short letter of explanation if the orgs you and your spouse worked at are well known. (And I've been in this situation myself - not for PR renewal so a bit different - and just explained with a letter of explanation).

I'm not saying there won't be other issues or that the who-accompanied-whom doesn't matter, on which enough has been written here already - just that I seriously doubt the residential address issue will be much of a factor.

 

[Nunuc]

Update - Received my new PR card today. I sent in the application as above and requested urgent processing - I was a little worried when it showed a decision was made in 3 days thinking that something may have been wrong with the application and that it was rejected but the next day it was updated to PR card sent.

Am really impressed that urgent processing literally meant 3 days. In terms of documents sent to secure urgent processing, it was a letter of employment and a letter from the employer stating that I may be required to travel at short notice despite currently telecommuting.

Thanks a lot everyone for your support, advice and tips and, fingers crossed, see you at the Citizenship Forum in a few years

 

[Hanataha]

Update - Received my new PR card today. I sent in the application as above and requested urgent processing - I was a little worried when it showed a decision was made in 3 days thinking that something may have been wrong with the application and that it was rejected but the next day it was updated to PR card sent.

Am really impressed that urgent processing literally meant 3 days. In terms of documents sent to secure urgent processing, it was a letter of employment and a letter from the employer stating that I may be required to travel at short notice despite currently telecommuting.

Thanks a lot everyone for your support, advice and tips and, fingers crossed, see you at the Citizenship Forum in a few years

Congratulations Nunuc! I've been waiting to see your update here.
I just want to ask you if you submitted travel history from the countries you visited/ lived while accompanying your wife abroad?
Thank you.

 

[Hanataha]

How long did you spend in Canada right after getting your PR?

Hi @canuck78, I'm sorry for asking this question. I just want some help please.

I did my landing in March 2015. Stayed in Canada for 5 months and then accompanied my Canadian husband abroad. I have more than 1,000 days on RO.
I was supposed to travel back to Canada to apply for PR card renewal last March 2020 but due to covid, I postponed it.

I was able to get a multiple entry PRTD valid for 1 year. I'm planning to travel to Canada in April 2021 to submit my PR renewal application.

My question is, what date shall I put under "PERIOD TO BE ASSESSED" is it from March 2015-March 2020.
Or April 2016- April 2021.

if I put April 2016- April 2021, do I need to include all the documents/ proof of my stay in Canada (like my daughter's birth certificate and hospital records) from March 2015- August 2015 or no?

Thank you so much.