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PR Card renewal with minimum RO of 730 stay

Discussion in 'Permanent Residency Obligations' started by babnation, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. Hi, I was wondering if you could provide some advice on my case.
    Brief History:
    My Family and I landed back in June 22, 2015 and stayed almost 5 months and since then had some short visits in 2016 and 2017. Now, we have permanently moved and settled in Canada since April 2019 and intend to live here. I have used my exact travel dates in the RO calculator to check our days in Canada and determined that on our fifth anniversary date of June 22, 2020 we will add up 736 days here.

    I would like to apply for the immigration consultant course and become a registered RCIC but in order to become one you have to have a valid PR card on file all the time.

    Would it be safe to apply for PR renewal for me and my family on the anniversary date? Considering I have been living here permanently since April 2019, would that be a factor for normal PR renewal processing?

    Thanks and appreciate your advice.
  2. If you're absolutely certain that you will have 736 days, then yes, you will have maintained your RO. However, when it's this close, the application can get delayed because they may want to check on your actual presence, and can ask for more proof.

    If you don't absolutely need your PR, you should consider waiting another two months, which would put you closer to 800. Yes, the fact that you have been living here permanently would count in your favour since it would be very easy for you to provide proof of residence.
  3. I would wait until you have additional residency days before you apply. Otherwise your renewal application is likely going to end up in secondary review and take a very long time.
  4. I largely concur in the observations posted by @21Goose except for the arithmetic.

    Among PRs who are cutting it so close as you have done, we do not know what percentage are subject to Secondary Review or OTHER non-routine processing when they make a PR card application. You are cutting-it-so-close it seems the odds of non-routine processing may be significant, and that could indeed mean a delay in how long it takes to be issued a new PR card.

    The fact you are now settled and living in Canada is an important factor. That can indeed make a difference. Particularly in a case like this where your calculation of days present in Canada appears to depend on days visiting Canada at various times, credit that appears to make the difference between being in compliance versus being in breach of the Residency Obligation. To be clear, you are indeed very much cutting-it-close. It warrants remembering that the burden of proving days in Canada is on the PR.

    Calculation of days present:

    Relative to the number of days present in Canada and the PR Residency Obligation, in this situation there is little or no difference between a new PR card application made, say, January 22, 2020, June 22, 2020, or November 22, 2020.

    The longer you wait to make the PR card application, the stronger evidence there is that you are in fact settled and staying in Canada. And that can matter.

    But in terms of the calculation of days credit toward complying with the RO, your current calculation (as of today) will continue to be the SAME number of days credit until sometime in November 2020. Of course this depends on you remaining IN Canada.

    This is because you get credit for all days remaining until the fifth year anniversary of landing, so between now and June 22, 2020, SO LONG AS YOU STAY IN CANADA, as each day passes you gain a day's credit for actual presence and lose a day's credit based on days remaining until the fifth year anniversary. And then, beginning June 22, 2020, even though you will continue to gain a day's credit for each day you continue to be in Canada, as of then you begin to lose the corresponding day in 2015 as those days fall outside the relevant five year time period.


    In particular, I cannot speak for anyone else but I do not understand the arithmetic or reasoning in either of the following:

    Again, the number of days credit you will have, toward compliance with the PR RO, will be exactly the same if you apply January 22, 2020, June 22, 2020, or November 22, 2020.

    This is because an application made January 22, 2020 gets credit for days remaining in the first five years . . . so the days between January 22, 2020 and the fifth year anniversary June 22, 2020 count as if present. (Of course if you leave Canada after January 22, 2020 and before the fifth year anniversary, you lose credit for the days abroad; remember that IRCC can schedule an interview and conduct a PR RO examination as of any day while a PRC application is in process.) So the total credit is the same January 22 as it would be June 22.

    Then, after June 22, 2020, the days you were present in 2015 begin to fall out of the calculation. So for each day you are present in Canada after June 22, 2020, FOR the NEXT FIVE MONTHS (to be precise, for the number of days you were present in Canada following the day of landing in 2015) you lose a day . . . that is, until November 22, 2020 (again, to be precise, until the fifth year anniversary of the day you left Canada after landing in 2015), your PR RO calculation will be exactly the same as it was on June 22, 2020 . . . which, by the way, is the same as it is TODAY (so long as you are in Canada and you continue to stay in Canada).


    Given how close to being in breach of the PR RO you are, one can only guess how "safe" you are if you apply for a new card in January 2020 or June 2020 or November 2020. Since you are now settled here and staying, my guess is that it is SAFE in terms of keeping PR status, in terms of not being reported for a breach of the RO and then having to prosecute an appeal to keep status. That said, the longer you remain here now the more secure your position is.

    However, the burden of proof is on the PR. So the number of days credit that IRCC gives you could depend on your ability to prove actual presence in Canada all of those days. Days since coming and staying and being settled here should be fairly easy to prove. Proving presence for days in 2015 and days visiting, that could depend on what evidence you have of your presence during those periods of time.

    In any event, in terms of apprehending whether there might be non-routine processing of a PR card application resulting in a delay that leaves you without a currently valid PR card for some time, that is almost impossible to guess other than to acknowledge that given how close to a breach you are and will continue to be . . . virtually into 2021 . . . we know there is a significant RISK of non-routine processing and a delay.
  5. Thank you for your comprehensive reply. Reading a lot about PR status and Card renewals, I learned that a valid or expired PR card does not determine your PR status and it is possible to stay and work in Canada with an expired PR card. But to my surprise this profession requires a valid PR card on file all the time and although they give you a grace period to renew it but since I would fall under the SR category with a high probability, it would again delay my goal of becoming a RCIC so maybe it is better to wait two years+ from our settle date of April 9th, 2019 to renew our PR cards, taking into consideration we would have expired PR cards from September 2020 onwards. Do you think this will create any foreseen problem, like the issue with the required valid PR card to become a RCIC? Is the valid card anywhere else needed in Canada besides travel? Thanks.
  6. Thanks for your feedback.
  7. Thanks for your feedback.
  8. All I'm saying is wait till you have 800+ days of presence. Calculate the days accordingly.

  9. "I learned that a valid or expired PR card does not determine your PR status and it is possible to stay and work in Canada with an expired PR card."


    As for possible exceptions, like RCIC requiring a valid PR card, those have little or nothing to do with Canadian immigration law. Note, for example, some forum participants report particular employers requiring PR employees have a valid PR card. That is about the employer's policies NOT about Canadian law.

    I am NOT familiar with the requirements for registered consultants generally and am not familiar with this particular requirement.

    ". . . since I would fall under the SR category with a high probability . . ."

    We do not know that there is a high probability of SR for PRs cutting-it-close when applying for a new PR card. There are plenty of forum reports from cutting-it-close PRs who have had their PR card applications referred to SR, that is true. Enough there appears to be a correlation between cutting-it-close and SR referrals. But it is not as if there is any way to know how many cutting-it-close PRs apply for a PR card and do NOT get referred for SR.

    REMINDER: ordinarily SR is not about determining Residency Obligation compliance as of the date the PR card application was made. There are other non-routine processing procedures for verifying RO related admissibility. In particular, if IRCC apprehends the PR is NOT in compliance with the RO at the time a PR card application is made, typically IRCC refers the application to a local office to conduct a Residency Determination.

    To be clear, for PRs who STAY IN Canada (and do not have admissibility issues related to misrepresentation, or criminality or security concerns), the only downside to a SR referral is the delay in being issued a new PR card.

    Thus, for example, if a PR card application is made in January 2020, even if referred for SR and it takes a year to be issued a new PR card, that is still sooner or at least relatively as soon as waiting to apply with, say, 800 days actual presence, which will not happen until late January 2021 . . . AND frankly, even though the odds of SR are probably less by then, even 800 days is still relatively cutting-it-close and there is still a significant risk of SR then as well.

    ". . . maybe it is better to wait two years+ from our settle date of April 9th, 2019 to renew our PR cards, taking into consideration we would have expired PR cards from September 2020 onwards. Do you think this will create any foreseen problem, like the issue with the required valid PR card to become a RCIC?"

    I do NOT know what is better. How you approach this is largely a personal decision only you can make.

    As I noted before, the risk of SR is not really the most salient concern (so long as the PR does not have inadmissibility issues, such as potential misrepresentations to CBSA or IRCC). Other non-routine processing can pose greater risks to a PR's status. If PR Residency Obligation compliance is being questioned, for example, that does NOT ordinarily result in SR but, rather, in a referral to a local office for a formal Residency Determination. This tends to happen much, much sooner than SR referrals are processed. (Note: some forum commentary fails to distinguish between formal SR and other non-routine processing.)

    My sense tends to differ some from other forum participants in regards to number of days credit. 730 within 5 years, that is key of course. Beyond that, my sense is the number does not matter much. My sense is that the difference between 750 days and 850 days does NOT have much influence. My sense is that OTHER factors loom far more influentially . . . with being settled in Canada looming large, and any factors affecting appearance of credibility also looming large. Of course the longer one has been settled in Canada, the more evident that element is and the more positive influence it is likely to have.

    ". . . Is the valid card anywhere else needed in Canada besides travel?"

    Yes. Such as to obtain a SIN (if one was not obtained soon after landing) and some provincial benefits (with exceptions; Ontario, for example, allows a PR to present an expired PR card when updating health care coverage . . . and as a practical matter, for renewals it appears the province often does not even ask to see a PR card, valid or expired).

    But generally NO, a PR does not need a valid card while living in Canada. A PR card is primarily to facilitate boarding commercial transportation headed to Canada from abroad. The PR who does not go abroad should not need a currently valid PR card . . . with exceptions, such as the one you have discovered.
  10. Thanks again for your thorough reply. When applying to renew my PR card will all the documents and forms necessary, is it also possible to formally explain why I am applying to renew? Particularly, in my case providing the college diploma of the immigration consultant course and the fact that in order to become a official RCIC I would require a valid PR card? Would that count as helpful reasoning?

    As for our stays in canada during 2015, 2016 and 2017, we have our airline tickets, boarding passes, credit card statements and rental contracts. Is there other evidence required to show our stay? I am not sure but I have heard that if required, immigration can also access our travel and flight details through the airlines. If that's the case the it shouldn't be that hard to determine one's stay duration in Canada.

  11. A PR who has actually been present in Canada for more than 730 days within the relevant time period will ordinarily NOT have a serious problem keeping PR status, notwithstanding the burden of proof . . . other than the risk of a lengthy delay in being issued a new PR card due to SR or other non-routine processing. This is especially true for a PR settled in Canada and for the time STAYING in Canada.

    That said, 736 days is really cutting-it-close.

    Regarding submission of explanation letter or other documents:

    Conventional wisdom is that submitting documents and providing information should be limited to what the application and checklist ask for. Additional information or documents rarely appears to help. In contrast, submitting extra information or documents risks, to some extent, raising questions or issues that might not have otherwise been in issue. IRCC is a bureaucracy and very much operates like a bureaucracy. It is NOT personal.

    I myself have not entirely followed the conventional wisdom; for example, I did submit a small number of extra documents with my citizenship application. I doubt it made any difference.

    IRCC access to PR's travel history in other sources:

    As for what information IRCC has or can access to verify a PR's actual presence in Canada, obviously the government has multiple resources for cross-checking the information a PR provides. Nonetheless, it is the PR's responsibility to provide complete and accurate accounting of travel and presence. After all, the PR is the one and only person in the whole world who was for-sure there when the PR exited and entered Canada. The PR himself or herself is the one best source for this information. So IRCC primarily accesses other sources, such as a CBSA travel history showing dates the PR entered Canada, to check against the PR's accounting, to see whether there are any discrepancies or omissions. Basically IRCC checks to determine if it can rely on the PR's information to be credible. Thus, it warrants noting, IRCC also looks for any other indications of the PR's credibility. Second only to actually being present enough days to meet the RO, the PR's credibility is perhaps the biggest factor in how things go.

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