Possible Denial Under Para 117(9) - non declaration of family member

[Sweden]

Hi, I saw your message but my account is unable to send messages. We are still gathering supporting documents. Will post here once we get a final decision. The waiting is the worst part. I hope your case will have a better output. Please let me know.

Good luck to you, it seems to be a tricky case for sure, but you also have lots of elements in your favor, and a clear idea of what you need to prove, so I hope that the appeal will be successful.
For not being able to send messages - that's because you have less than 10 posts. You are at 9 now... once you post one more time, you will then have access to the profile options on the forum, so you can add details, but also send private messages.
Good luck,
Sweden

 

[kleiden]

Good luck to you, it seems to be a tricky case for sure, but you also have lots of elements in your favor, and a clear idea of what you need to prove, so I hope that the appeal will be successful.
For not being able to send messages - that's because you have less than 10 posts. You are at 9 now... once you post one more time, you will then have access to the profile options on the forum, so you can add details, but also send private messages.
Good luck,
Sweden

Well this is post # 10. Will try to send a message after this but right now, I'm still waiting on the courier to deliver our supporting documents from Dubai so no change in status yet. Despite all the evidence I have, there is still that queasy feeling in my stomach because it really still depends on the opinion of the VO. I even have two versions of my response letter. One I wrote while the other by my lawyer. Still not decided which to include on the package I need to drop off at the Embassy.

I actually prefer the one I wrote, but what do I know about the law. People say I should be listening to the lawyer more, but it sounds so stiff and formulated to me. I have 15 letters/affidavits from friends/colleagues who visit our flat during birthdays, etc. They all sent letters/affidavits when I told them what happened. I've had to ask them to revise numerous times because some of them would border on hate mail hahaha. It wouldn't do me any good to piss-off the VO either.

Maybe I'm just stressing myself out but now it's bothering me that maybe I'm sending too many letters. It feels good that most of them spent the time to help us out but doesn't too much evidence also spell out as guilty in a lawyer's eyes?

It's really sad that people get to experience this before Christmas.

 

[frege]

Well this is post # 10. Will try to send a message after this but right now, I'm still waiting on the courier to deliver our supporting documents from Dubai so no change in status yet. Despite all the evidence I have, there is still that queasy feeling in my stomach because it really still depends on the opinion of the VO. I even have two versions of my response letter. One I wrote while the other by my lawyer. Still not decided which to include on the package I need to drop off at the Embassy.

I actually prefer the one I wrote, but what do I know about the law. People say I should be listening to the lawyer more, but it sounds so stiff and formulated to me. I have 15 letters/affidavits from friends/colleagues who visit our flat during birthdays, etc. They all sent letters/affidavits when I told them what happened. I've had to ask them to revise numerous times because some of them would border on hate mail hahaha. It wouldn't do me any good to piss-off the VO either.

Maybe I'm just stressing myself out but now it's bothering me that maybe I'm sending too many letters. It feels good that most of them spent the time to help us out but doesn't too much evidence also spell out as guilty in a lawyer's eyes?

It's really sad that people get to experience this before Christmas.

Hello Kleiden,

I can understand why you're feeling stressed by this. It's forcing you to make a huge effort in a short time, and it has serious consequences for you. You're doing the right thing taking it seriously.

That being said, it's not true that everything depends on the VO. In a case like this, if the VO decides against you, all the evidence is heard anew by an IAD appeal panel, and they render a fresh decision based on that evidence. I know you don't want it to come to that, but this provides some perspective. (An important qualification: this statement concerns the decision of whether you're excluded from the family class by 117(9)(d). If the IAD decides you are caught by it, and you still apply on humanitarian grounds, then a VO's decision can be overturned only by a court and only on narrower grounds, such as the decision being patently unreasonable.)

I wouldn't worry too much about pissing the VO off. Obviously, any gratuitous rudeness will be counterproductive. But your goal at the moment should be convincing them that if they deny you, you'll still win on appeal. Generally, at the appeal level, the greater the volume of evidence in your favour, the better. In fact, the more committed you appear to pursuing the process and winning your case, the more likely the VO is to decide in your favour now. And if anything, it would be harder to get fifteen people to lie for you than, say, ten. All this shows it that you care, not that you're guilty. On the other hand, you could run the affidavits by the lawyer to see if there's anything in them that might work against you.

I don't know what to do about the letter. I presume that the focus of the lawyer's letter is showing that you'll have good arguments on appeal. It may not be perfect, but sometimes it's better to say less and let the evidence speak for itself. Perhaps the lawyer thinks the less you say now, the less you'll be boxed in later when it really counts, or the less material there is for CIC to challenge you on.

If you're concerned, perhaps you should discuss this with the lawyer. It may be a bit daunting to suggest to a lawyer that their work could possibly be improved on, but I'm sure there's a tactful way to address it. I don't think the tone of the letter is particularly relevant - the time may be past for making nice with the VO. So just focus on specific facts or arguments you'd like to see incorporated into the lawyer's letter.

 

[kleiden]

Hello Kleiden,

I can understand why you're feeling stressed by this. It's forcing you to make a huge effort in a short time, and it has serious consequences for you. You're doing the right thing taking it seriously.

That being said, it's not true that everything depends on the VO. In a case like this, if the VO decides against you, all the evidence is heard anew by an IAD appeal panel, and they render a fresh decision based on that evidence. I know you don't want it to come to that, but this provides some perspective. (An important qualification: this statement concerns the decision of whether you're excluded from the family class by 117(9)(d). If the IAD decides you are caught by it, and you still apply on humanitarian grounds, then a VO's decision can be overturned only by a court and only on narrower grounds, such as the decision being patently unreasonable.)

I wouldn't worry too much about pissing the VO off. Obviously, any gratuitous rudeness will be counterproductive. But your goal at the moment should be convincing them that if they deny you, you'll still win on appeal. Generally, at the appeal level, the greater the volume of evidence in your favour, the better. In fact, the more committed you appear to pursuing the process and winning your case, the more likely the VO is to decide in your favour now. And if anything, it would be harder to get fifteen people to lie for you than, say, ten. All this shows it that you care, not that you're guilty. On the other hand, you could run the affidavits by the lawyer to see if there's anything in them that might work against you.

I don't know what to do about the letter. I presume that the focus of the lawyer's letter is showing that you'll have good arguments on appeal. It may not be perfect, but sometimes it's better to say less and let the evidence speak for itself. Perhaps the lawyer thinks the less you say now, the less you'll be boxed in later when it really counts, or the less material there is for CIC to challenge you on.

If you're concerned, perhaps you should discuss this with the lawyer. It may be a bit daunting to suggest to a lawyer that their work could possibly be improved on, but I'm sure there's a tactful way to address it. I don't think the tone of the letter is particularly relevant - the time may be past for making nice with the VO. So just focus on specific facts or arguments you'd like to see incorporated into the lawyer's letter.

Thanks, I actually sent the slightly revised lawyer's version. We had to give up 3 of the letters which had incorrect dates as I didn't want to risk being questioned about this later on. I have maybe 2 folders full of evidence of how my family (parents, sister) were supporting me but the dates were going even before the questioned cohabitation so we just chose selected data which were relevant. I wanted to show that it's my actually family I turn to for support. Even if the lawyer is saying there is hope of appeal, I've read in other posts that sometimes it takes 2 years for the case to reach court because of the number of appeals they receive. Imagine being away from your husband that long. We've had to endure being apart during my application, 1 year of documentation before we can get married (diff nationality and religion), and my mom's constant disapproval (haha) so we don't see the point of staying apart this long just to prove we can win a case.

Canada is looking less and less appealing to us and we're thinking of just going for other countries that will accept us. We want to start a family soon and this is our ultimate goal. I'm not getting any younger and it's harder to start a family when you're not even sure where you'll be living. If this goes to appeal, we will be applying simultaneously to other countries and see which is the faster route. He has considered staying in my home country as well or wherever I can find work since it's easier for me to get a job (IT). As my husband said, this is not the end of the world for us, we just need to start over again. The one good thing this situation has done for us is make us realize that being together is more important and that we have really, really good friends.

 

[frege]

Thanks, I actually sent the slightly revised lawyer's version. We had to give up 3 of the letters which had incorrect dates as I didn't want to risk being questioned about this later on. I have maybe 2 folders full of evidence of how my family (parents, sister) were supporting me but the dates were going even before the questioned cohabitation so we just chose selected data which were relevant. I wanted to show that it's my actually family I turn to for support. Even if the lawyer is saying there is hope of appeal, I've read in other posts that sometimes it takes 2 years for the case to reach court because of the number of appeals they receive. Imagine being away from your husband that long. We've had to endure being apart during my application, 1 year of documentation before we can get married (diff nationality and religion), and my mom's constant disapproval (haha) so we don't see the point of staying apart this long just to prove we can win a case.

Canada is looking less and less appealing to us and we're thinking of just going for other countries that will accept us. We want to start a family soon and this is our ultimate goal. I'm not getting any younger and it's harder to start a family when you're not even sure where you'll be living. If this goes to appeal, we will be applying simultaneously to other countries and see which is the faster route. He has considered staying in my home country as well or wherever I can find work since it's easier for me to get a job (IT). As my husband said, this is not the end of the world for us, we just need to start over again. The one good thing this situation has done for us is make us realize that being together is more important and that we have really, really good friends.

Well, I'm Canadian and reading about all the difficulties CIC imposes on legitimate couples makes me really upset. In most respects, Canada is a good country to live in, but there are a limited number of situations where you can be made to feel like a criminal for no good reason, like sometimes when you're crossing the border.

Before it going to appeal, there's a stage of Alternative Dispute Resolution, when you can try to convince CIC that they'll lose an appeal. That would be quicker. You preserve your appeal rights.

I can understand your reasons for wanting to start your life elsewhere if you're rejected. But your husband may be eligible for Canadian citizenship soon. Once he meets the criteria, I think he can leave the country, and it won't affect him getting citizenship, although your application might have to be dropped while he was waiting, since a PR can't sponsor you if he's living abroad. Once he becomes a citizen, you can apply again if you change your mind, and you can continue living together abroad while the whole process plays out.

You should ask your lawyer what options you have to continue the appeal if he's left the country. PR's can't sponsor from abroad, so this probably isn't possible. But if he's a citizen by the time of the appeal, I wonder if that would change things. Sometimes a judge will take pity on people rather than make them go through the whole years-long process again.

Edit: I mean, he can leave the country once he meets the criteria AND APPLIES for citizenship.

 

[kleiden]

Well, I'm Canadian and reading about all the difficulties CIC imposes on legitimate couples makes me really upset. In most respects, Canada is a good country to live in, but there are a limited number of situations where you can be made to feel like a criminal for no good reason, like sometimes when you're crossing the border.

Before it going to appeal, there's a stage of Alternative Dispute Resolution, when you can try to convince CIC that they'll lose an appeal. That would be quicker. You preserve your appeal rights.

I can understand your reasons for wanting to start your life elsewhere if you're rejected. But your husband may be eligible for Canadian citizenship soon. Once he meets the criteria, I think he can leave the country, and it won't affect him getting citizenship, although your application might have to be dropped while he was waiting, since a PR can't sponsor you if he's living abroad. Once he becomes a citizen, you can apply again if you change your mind, and you can continue living together abroad while the whole process plays out.

You should ask your lawyer what options you have to continue the appeal if he's left the country. PR's can't sponsor from abroad, so this probably isn't possible. But if he's a citizen by the time of the appeal, I wonder if that would change things. Sometimes a judge will take pity on people rather than make them go through the whole years-long process again.

Edit: I mean, he can leave the country once he meets the criteria AND APPLIES for citizenship.

Well I have nothing against Canada or Canadians in general I understand and agree that this law is meant to protect its residents but it's disheartening that they can classify genuine couples with people who are trying to cheat the system. My husband has been there for more than a year and has met a lot of people getting PR status from lying or cheating and we who are trying to be honest are actually having this problem hehehe. I would have appreciated if they gave me a chance for interview, I know people lie all the time even on interviews but they should still see and hear me out first before making a final decision right? These are actual lives they are affecting and a lifetime ban is no little matter. They should look into modifying this law a little as from reading case files online, it sounds very subjective. The fact that a lot goes to appeal and some decisions overturned, means the people they hire (VOs/IOs) are not 100% sure on what common-law means. If even they are unsure, how do they expect non-lawyers to be well-informed? If I had known having the same address is all they needed then we would've applied for this sooner even before we got married or he would've declared me on landing.

People have been telling me we should've lied in our application then we wouldn't be having this problem. Well we didn't know any better and I guess it was our mistake for trusting incompetent agencies. The first one told us to get married first and not to include me since we weren't falling under this category, the second one didn't tell us we were going to have this problem and just took our money. We have no hard evidence to complain on either of the agencies and ultimately it's us who are suffering the consequences. Even now they are saying I could've pretended we broke up and separated in between, but it goes against my nature to lie when I didn't have anything to hide in the first place.

My husband will be eligible for citizenship in two years. If they deny me, then I assume that me going there as a tourist to vist him is also not an option. So spending a total of two months (leaves he is allowed) in two years together, is not something we envisioned when we got married. Thanks for trying to think of faster or more plausible ways to do our appeal. I know Canada is a really good country for some people, but we don't see ourselves going through all this effort just so he can be a citizen. I mean the whole point of us going there is so we can be together without thinking too much about residency issues (different nationalities), so spending N-number of years apart so we can finally be together seems counterproductive.

Anyway happy holidays to everyone and thanks for all your help! Here's to a hopefully happier new year ;D

I will endure the holidays and post ASAP once a decision has been made.

 

[frege]

Well I have nothing against Canada or Canadians in general I understand and agree that this law is meant to protect its residents but it's disheartening that they can classify genuine couples with people who are trying to cheat the system. My husband has been there for more than a year and has met a lot of people getting PR status from lying or cheating and we who are trying to be honest are actually having this problem hehehe. I would have appreciated if they gave me a chance for interview, I know people lie all the time even on interviews but they should still see and hear me out first before making a final decision right? These are actual lives they are affecting and a lifetime ban is no little matter. They should look into modifying this law a little as from reading case files online, it sounds very subjective. The fact that a lot goes to appeal and some decisions overturned, means the people they hire (VOs/IOs) are not 100% sure on what common-law means. If even they are unsure, how do they expect non-lawyers to be well-informed? If I had known having the same address is all they needed then we would've applied for this sooner even before we got married or he would've declared me on landing.

People have been telling me we should've lied in our application then we wouldn't be having this problem. Well we didn't know any better and I guess it was our mistake for trusting incompetent agencies. The first one told us to get married first and not to include me since we weren't falling under this category, the second one didn't tell us we were going to have this problem and just took our money. We have no hard evidence to complain on either of the agencies and ultimately it's us who are suffering the consequences. Even now they are saying I could've pretended we broke up and separated in between, but it goes against my nature to lie when I didn't have anything to hide in the first place.

My husband will be eligible for citizenship in two years. If they deny me, then I assume that me going there as a tourist to vist him is also not an option. So spending a total of two months (leaves he is allowed) in two years together, is not something we envisioned when we got married. Thanks for trying to think of faster or more plausible ways to do our appeal. I know Canada is a really good country for some people, but we don't see ourselves going through all this effort just so he can be a citizen. I mean the whole point of us going there is so we can be together without thinking too much about residency issues (different nationalities), so spending N-number of years apart so we can finally be together seems counterproductive.

Anyway happy holidays to everyone and thanks for all your help! Here's to a hopefully happier new year ;D

I will endure the holidays and post ASAP once a decision has been made.

The thing about claiming to have separated and reunited definitely would have been suspicious and pointless. It's good you didn't do that. I think you both did everything the way you were supposed to do it. The only thing - with hindsight - that would have prevented this situation would have been to inform the visa office before his family landed that you were a couple but give the reasons that you didn't believe you were common-law partners at that time, and to let them make the decision of whether to examine you. But nobody can blame you for not having done this because it was clear for you that you were not common-law partners according to their definition and you were correct about it.

I agree with your feelings about the system 100%. As a Canadian, I feel very bad that your husband may have to leave Canada to be with you when neither of you has done anything wrong, especially since it seems to me you would probably win on appeal. You've done the right thing trying to put the best case forward now, and I hope it will work.

 

[kleiden]

Hello. Any updates on your case? Thanks


I hope to hear anything from you soon. We're in the same page.

Hi everyone,

I got a passport request mail a couple of days back and I don't want to sound stupid but this is good news right? The status in my Ecas also changed to In Process with the date. At this point I am doubting everything they tell me. I think I'll be putting off celebrating up until the time I actually see the visa in my passport.

Anyhow, for the benefit of the people who have the same case as me and also assuming that whatever I did worked and this is an approval, here's the list of things I sent to the VO:

My response letter stating why I believed that I didn't fall under this category
Affidavits of my housemates, officemates, friends who have visited the flat
Tenancy contracts, bills showing it wasn't under our name
Bank/Credit Card statements showing we were not supplementary/joint holders
Emails/Bills/Etickets showing me and my sister talking about our shared expenses and how she was supporting me when needed

Thanks to everyone in this forum I would not have gotten this far without your help I hope this really is the real deal and will post again when I get the visa

 

[SquirrelBR]

I think you should ask more experienced couples, and I don't want to upset you, but I think that since they stated they were about to refuse your app, this email asking for passports is not what you think it is.

You have my prayers with you, for your situation deeply bothers me.

In my mind I decided that If something would happened like that to me, I would return to my home country with my wife and forget about immigrating to canada.

 

[kleiden]

Hi everyone! Just giving my last update...I got my visa last February and just landed a couple of days back. Now spending time with my husband and getting the feel of this country Thanks to everyone who helped and I hope people who are experiencing the same issue as I did will get their visas soon!

I know I sounded very pessimistic when I started this post but I guess now it proves that not everything is a lost cause and the VO's are actually people you can reason with. Just make sure you have everything in order, give enough evidence, and present your case as clear as possible so they won't have cause to question your integrity. Sometimes you really just have to explain your situation and everything will work out...

 

[amikety]

Hi everyone! Just giving my last update...I got my visa last February and just landed a couple of days back. Now spending time with my husband and getting the feel of this country Thanks to everyone who helped and I hope people who are experiencing the same issue as I did will get their visas soon!

I know I sounded very pessimistic when I started this post but I guess now it proves that not everything is a lost cause and the VO's are actually people you can reason with. Just make sure you have everything in order, give enough evidence, and present your case as clear as possible so they won't have cause to question your integrity. Sometimes you really just have to explain your situation and everything will work out...

Good to hear! I read your posts last year and never commented because I had nothing helpful/new to say, but CONGRATS!!!!

 

[canadianwoman]

Congratulations! It's nice to hear when a difficult case works out.

 

[Sweden]

Hi everyone! Just giving my last update...I got my visa last February and just landed a couple of days back. Now spending time with my husband and getting the feel of this country Thanks to everyone who helped and I hope people who are experiencing the same issue as I did will get their visas soon!

I know I sounded very pessimistic when I started this post but I guess now it proves that not everything is a lost cause and the VO's are actually people you can reason with. Just make sure you have everything in order, give enough evidence, and present your case as clear as possible so they won't have cause to question your integrity. Sometimes you really just have to explain your situation and everything will work out...

Congrats! that's great to hear!! glad it went through and you didn't have to wait for too long to get an answer. And - welcome to Canada! thanks for taking the time to "report back", it will for sure help others in a similar situation.
Sweden

 

[kickb]

Hi


1. It appears that CHC has decided that you and your spouse lived in a Common/law relationship for a year prior to his emigration to Canada. You were not declared nor were you medically examined.
2. So unless you can convince CHC otherwise, the application will be refused as you will be no longer a member of the family class. Your sponsor will have the right of appeal to the IAD, where he will have to convince them that you were not in C/law relationship. (It would appear that you have already told Manila that you were living together) There are no Humanitarian or Compassionate grounds considered if you are found not to member of the family class.
3. If that is so, the you can either apply as a skilled worker or can submit an application under 25(1) Humanitarian and Compassionate grounds.

as per the letter, VO asked for any documentary proof that spouse is declared so he can procced further in the case. Where as in my case i have declared throug email and enclosed all the communications made to Canadian high commission along with my sponsorship application. Any seniors can provide me the possibilites of sponsorship approval.

 

[myboss]

hello everybody! I would like to seek for a very good advice from anybody here who has knowledge or had experience the same situation.
I had a same sex partner when I was still living in the Philippines we started living together from Dec 2008 to Dec 2010 till me and my family received our PR. The time that my parents applied for Provincial Nominee and me , as their dependant child, me and my partner were living in the same house with my parents, we received our approval letter on Oct 2009, by that time, I wasn't really aware that Canada takes consideration for same sex couple and has to be included as non accompanying family member too, also we weren't able to fulfill the 12 month requirement yet for common law scheme during the time we received the approval, had I known we won't be still consider as common law anyways. Due to long wait and processing time we were able to reach almost 2yrs of living together. We really had no idea that that our relationship falls under common law especially we are same sex and same sex relationship is not legally recognize in the Philippines. It was just recently that I realized after reading some articles about sponsorships that we qualify under common law even same sex, Now is there a good chance I can still sponsor my same sex partner to come to Canada even though I didn't not include him on my previous application? Is there any sort of affidavit or support letter I need to provide to CIC to consider my application. I do have all the proofs and documents that we have lived on the same address but the only thing is I wasn't able to declare him prior to my previous application due to lack of knowledge about the concept/nature for same sex common law especially if your home country doesn't really recognize it. Anybody here who can give inputs of what to do? thank you very much!