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Police Certificate requirement for countries where an individual spent 6+ months

taffytoffy

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Nov 17, 2016
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avro1959 said:
taffytoffy, this is extremely helpful, thank you for going through the effort of documenting the process!!

I expect I will be submitting my citizenship application in the next few months.

In terms of processing time, you mentioned in your blog post that the Criminal Records Check Reply is issued instantly. How about the Certificate of Entry/Departure Record? Any idea how long that takes? If that's instant as well, then I assume I can start this process perhaps 2-3 weeks before I intend to submit my citizenship application.

Cheers...

Hi avro1959,

I'm glad you found the post helpful. I'm not so sure as to how long it takes to get the Entry/Departure Record... Maybe by now you have it already? If you don't mind share your experience for other it'd be helpful.

Thanks!
 

Adil Khan123

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Adil Khan123 said:
ar all i need your advice regarding pcc,
I have lived in pakistan, uk and currently in uae. I have already appleid for uk and uae pcc.
In pakistan i have lived in three cities. For two cities i have got my pcc. And som1 has asked me to prepare pcc from the city where i have graduated and stayed from 2006 till 2011. Do i really need pcc from all these three cities in pakistan?
Can some1 please respond to my above query?
 

uncomfortable

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May 11, 2017
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I have a question: how do you calculate the days of presence in a foreign country?

Are travel days counted or not? If you take many short trips, this could make a difference.


With regards to the days of absence from Canada, the definition is very specific. Form CIT 0407 explains:

Example:
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on the same day; total number of days absent = 0
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on July 6; total number of days absent = 0
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on July 12; total number of days absent = 6

If you use the same principle, "being present" means being in a given country for at least part of a given day. Therefore each day in which you "cross a border" counts as a day when you are present in both countries.

Therefore if we take the example above and we assume that the person in question has gone to the USA, if we apply this logic we obtain that in the first instance the person has been present in the USA for 1 day, in the second instance has been present in the USA for 2 days, and in the third instance he/she has been present in the USA for 8 days.

Is there anyone who has any document that confirms or denies this "theory"?
 
Last edited:

Vicky333

Star Member
Jun 19, 2017
60
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I have the same question. I'm either 160 or 190 days in another country depending on how you calculate.

(I frequently take weekend trips across the border.)
 

Denzdy

Newbie
Oct 23, 2017
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Hi guys need help regarding this, i am now 3yrs and 3 months now here in canada. I can now apply for citizenship, technically i did not spend time outside canada for 183days but it says for the past 4yrs and i was still in the philippines (9months)before i got my permanent resident. So it it counted when i was still not a landed resident for the 4yrs time? Ty help is very much appreciated
 

Stef.

Hero Member
Apr 5, 2017
603
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I have a question: how do you calculate the days of presence in a foreign country?

Are travel days counted or not? If you take many short trips, this could make a difference.


With regards to the days of absence from Canada, the definition is very specific. Form CIT 0407 explains:

Example:
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on the same day; total number of days absent = 0
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on July 6; total number of days absent = 0
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on July 12; total number of days absent = 6

If you use the same principle, "being present" means being in a given country for at least part of a given day. Therefore each day in which you "cross a border" counts as a day when you are present in both countries.

Therefore if we take the example above and we assume that the person in question has gone to the USA, if we apply this logic we obtain that in the first instance the person has been present in the USA for 1 day, in the second instance has been present in the USA for 2 days, and in the third instance he/she has been present in the USA for 8 days.

Is there anyone who has any document that confirms or denies this "theory"?
My understanding is that on every day your foot was on Canadian soil and even if just for one second, this day does not count as absent. Hence the example of leaving on one day and returning the next. Both days count as having been present in Canada.
 

spyfy

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Hi guys need help regarding this, i am now 3yrs and 3 months now here in canada. I can now apply for citizenship, technically i did not spend time outside canada for 183days but it says for the past 4yrs and i was still in the philippines (9months)before i got my permanent resident. So it it counted when i was still not a landed resident for the 4yrs time? Ty help is very much appreciated
Your statement is wrong. You are saying "technically I did not spend time outside Canada for 183 days". In fact you spent time in the Philippines in the last four years and it's more than 183 days. It doesn't matter if it was before or after becoming a PR. You need a police certificate.
 

spyfy

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I have a question: how do you calculate the days of presence in a foreign country?

Are travel days counted or not? If you take many short trips, this could make a difference.


With regards to the days of absence from Canada, the definition is very specific. Form CIT 0407 explains:

Example:
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on the same day; total number of days absent = 0
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on July 6; total number of days absent = 0
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on July 12; total number of days absent = 6

If you use the same principle, "being present" means being in a given country for at least part of a given day. Therefore each day in which you "cross a border" counts as a day when you are present in both countries.

Therefore if we take the example above and we assume that the person in question has gone to the USA, if we apply this logic we obtain that in the first instance the person has been present in the USA for 1 day, in the second instance has been present in the USA for 2 days, and in the third instance he/she has been present in the USA for 8 days.

Is there anyone who has any document that confirms or denies this "theory"?
There is no such document and if I am informed correctly, the call centre agent give contradicting information depending on who you ask. One can make an argument for either case when it comes to counting those days.
 

uncomfortable

Hero Member
May 11, 2017
234
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There is no such document and if I am informed correctly, the call centre agent give contradicting information depending on who you ask. One can make an argument for either case when it comes to counting those days.
Therefore the most conservative approach would be to count the days of presence in the foreign country in the most disadvantageous way, and if the number approaches 183, request the police certificate anyway.

This is what I did, but I had the luxury of time (I was waiting for C-6 to become effective) and the process to obtain a police certificate from the USA is relatively straightforward and inexpensive. It may not be the case for other countries.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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I have a question: how do you calculate the days of presence in a foreign country?

Are travel days counted or not? If you take many short trips, this could make a difference.

. . . confirms or denies this "theory"?
No theorizing necessary. The question in item 10.b is straight-forward. It asks a simple yes or no question. The applicant is instructed to answer yes if all the days the applicant was "in another country" add up to a total of 183 or more.

Let's be clear: The correct answer is the honest answer.

No parsing or analysis necessary. Other than forgetting a border crossing or two, or being off a bit on the date, which it is absolutely better to avoid (but which tends to be difficult to avoid for those who have made a large number of short trips), people generally know if they were "in" a country on a given day. If in a country, count it as a day in that country, and count all those days, whether they were consecutive or not, and if they add up to 183 or more, the honest answer for item 10.b is "yes."

If you were in Buffalo last Saturday, a day trip to do some shopping (or get mugged, Buffalo seems to be good for both), and a friend asked whether you were in the states last Saturday, the honest answer is, of course, yes. You were in the U.S. last Saturday. If law enforcement is conducting an official investigation and asks this questions, it could be a crime to not answer "yes." Clearly, if asked under penalty of perjury, upon an oath, the answer is "yes."

To not count a day in the U.S. as a day in the U.S. would be disingenuous at best.


Is any different approach really even arguable?

Let us be frank. While I suppose someone who flies a lot to a particular country might be in a position where it could make a difference, this question is mostly relevant only for someone who has spent a lot of time in the U.S. and it is about rationalizing a way to dodge checking "yes" in response to item 10.b and thereby dodge providing a Police Certificate from the U.S.

(Probably easy to get away with this, I'd guess, as in checking "no" and the application does not get returned as incomplete, and IRCC might not even ask for the Police Certificate later on in the process. Probably depends on how obvious it is in the presence calculator, or, in the other direction, whether the IRCC processing agent's focus is only on the number of days absent. That's not the same as saying it is OK.)


For those who want more officious reasoning, who insist on parsing the language:

What does a day "present" in a country mean?

For IRCC purposes, we know that a day present in Canada means a day in which the PR spent any part of the day in Canada. In fact, this is how we know that a PR applying for citizenship is not considered absent the day the PR leaves or returns to Canada, because being present any part of the day means being present in Canada that day.

From the PDI about how presence is calculated:

"Dates where an applicant left Canada, or returned to Canada will not be counted as an absence since the applicant was physically present in Canada for a portion of both days." (Emphasis added)

What is there is to suggest replacing the name of the country would change the meaning "present in" for IRCC?

Here's a clue: Nothing.

Turn it around. Talk about this from the perspective of the U.S. Can someone who was in the U.S. for part of a day truthfully claim they were not present in the U.S. that day? That they were absent from the U.S. that day?


Answering questions in the citizenship application is not an exercise in either game-play or word-play. Those who approach it otherwise tend to cause themselves more problems than they avoid.
 

uncomfortable

Hero Member
May 11, 2017
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No theorizing necessary. The question in item 10.b is straight-forward. It asks a simple yes or no question. The applicant is instructed to answer yes if all the days the applicant was "in another country" add up to a total of 183 or more.

Let's be clear: The correct answer is the honest answer.

No parsing or analysis necessary. Other than forgetting a border crossing or two, or being off a bit on the date, which it is absolutely better to avoid (but which tends to be difficult to avoid for those who have made a large number of short trips), people generally know if they were "in" a country on a given day. If in a country, count it as a day in that country, and count all those days, whether they were consecutive or not, and if they add up to 183 or more, the honest answer for item 10.b is "yes."

If you were in Buffalo last Saturday, a day trip to do some shopping (or get mugged, Buffalo seems to be good for both), and a friend asked whether you were in the states last Saturday, the honest answer is, of course, yes. You were in the U.S. last Saturday. If law enforcement is conducting an official investigation and asks this questions, it could be a crime to not answer "yes." Clearly, if asked under penalty of perjury, upon an oath, the answer is "yes."

To not count a day in the U.S. as a day in the U.S. would be disingenuous at best.


Is any different approach really even arguable?

Let us be frank. While I suppose someone who flies a lot to a particular country might be in a position where it could make a difference, this question is mostly relevant only for someone who has spent a lot of time in the U.S. and it is about rationalizing a way to dodge checking "yes" in response to item 10.b and thereby dodge providing a Police Certificate from the U.S.

(Probably easy to get away with this, I'd guess, as in checking "no" and the application does not get returned as incomplete, and IRCC might not even ask for the Police Certificate later on in the process. Probably depends on how obvious it is in the presence calculator, or, in the other direction, whether the IRCC processing agent's focus is only on the number of days absent. That's not the same as saying it is OK.)


For those who want more officious reasoning, who insist on parsing the language:

What does a day "present" in a country mean?

For IRCC purposes, we know that a day present in Canada means a day in which the PR spent any part of the day in Canada. In fact, this is how we know that a PR applying for citizenship is not considered absent the day the PR leaves or returns to Canada, because being present any part of the day means being present in Canada that day.

From the PDI about how presence is calculated:

"Dates where an applicant left Canada, or returned to Canada will not be counted as an absence since the applicant was physically present in Canada for a portion of both days." (Emphasis added)

What is there is to suggest replacing the name of the country would change the meaning "present in" for IRCC?

Here's a clue: Nothing.

Turn it around. Talk about this from the perspective of the U.S. Can someone who was in the U.S. for part of a day truthfully claim they were not present in the U.S. that day? That they were absent from the U.S. that day?


Answering questions in the citizenship application is not an exercise in either game-play or word-play. Those who approach it otherwise tend to cause themselves more problems than they avoid.
While I appreciate the thoroughness of the answer and its general conclusion, I am not sure I agree with the principle.
Quite a few concepts that you describe are quite subjective, and this exercise should be as objective as possible. Interpretations are inevitably influenced by cultural and personal factors, and especially in a situation where people from the most disparate backgrounds are involved, any element of subjectivity should be eliminated.

For example, in your "Buffalo case", common sense may lead you to believe that you can't be in two places at the same time. So if you reply that "you were in Buffalo last Saturday", that may imply that "you were not in Canada" last Saturday. However, according to the definitions of the Physical Presence Calculator, that day will be considered as a day of presence in Canada. It is somewhat counter intuitive to consider a day both as part of the count of the days you were present in Canada and also as part of the count of the days you were present in another country. However this seems to be a somewhat foregone conclusion based on the "definitions" set by IRCC.

Where those definitions lead to a conclusion that can be reasonably considered as counter intuitive, it would be appropriate, in my opinion, to leave very little room for subjectivity, and in this case IRCC does a poor job.

Again, your concept of "spending a lot of time in the US" is extremely subjective: IRCC draws the line at 183 days in a 4-year period. Two 3-week vacations a year would actually put you over the limit, and personally I wouldn't consider that "a lot of time", but that is a very subjective view. Someone else may consider that "a lot of time", and both views are perfectly acceptable in everyday's life. That's why, in a process like this, it would be highly recommendable that IRCC remove any possibility of subjective interpretation and define concepts as unequivocally as possible.
 
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thejkhan

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For example, in your "Buffalo case", common sense may lead you to believe that you can't be in two places at the same time. So if you reply that "you were in Buffalo last Saturday", that may imply that "you were not in Canada" last Saturday. However, according to the definitions of the Physical Presence Calculator, that day will be considered as a day of presence in Canada. It is somewhat counter intuitive to consider a day both as part of the count of the days you were present in Canada and also as part of the count of the days you were present in another country. However this seems to be a somewhat foregone conclusion based on the "definitions" set by IRCC.
So much analysis isn't really necessary.

For counting 'presence in Canada', that day is 1 day in Canada.

For 'police certificate' purpose, that day is 1 day in the US.

Doesn't have to be logical - just make sure CIC gets what it wants.
 
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dpenabill

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So much analysis isn't really necessary.
Very true. Particularly for an item like this in the application form.

There is, however, a broader and more important concept involved. The inclination of some to parse the language in the application form to justify a particular approach to answering the question. Those who are focused on best practices for navigating the application process will be prudent to avoid that approach.

There are many who obviously have questions and are just trying to figure out how to best fill in the application form. And this form in particular has more than a few wrinkles.

Item 10.b is NOT among the parts of this form which are confusing or otherwise difficult to figure out. Indeed, while it is numbered differently now (it was item 6.M previously), it is essentially in the same form as it has been since June 2015.

The best approach is usually the most honest approach. Or, the most honest approach is usually the best approach. Whichever way states it better, it is about reading the instructions and questions and doing one's best to give an honest answer.

In contrast, trying to craft answers based on parsing the language, especially where to do so is to justify avoiding giving IRCC some information or documentation, tends to be a bad idea. Sure, sometimes works. Quite often it just causes more problems than otherwise.



For example, in your "Buffalo case", common sense may lead you to believe that you can't be in two places at the same time. So if you reply that "you were in Buffalo last Saturday", that may imply that "you were not in Canada" last Saturday. However, according to the definitions of the Physical Presence Calculator, that day will be considered as a day of presence in Canada. It is somewhat counter intuitive to consider a day both as part of the count of the days you were present in Canada and also as part of the count of the days you were present in another country. However this seems to be a somewhat foregone conclusion based on the "definitions" set by IRCC.

Again, your concept of "spending a lot of time in the US" is extremely subjective: IRCC draws the line at 183 days in a 4-year period. Two 3-week vacations a year would actually put you over the limit, and personally I wouldn't consider that "a lot of time", but that is a very subjective view. Someone else may consider that "a lot of time", and both views are perfectly acceptable in everyday's life. That's why, in a process like this, it would be highly recommendable that IRCC remove any possibility of subjective interpretation and define concepts as unequivocally as possible.
"Spending a lot of time in the U.S." is of course imprecise. It does not refer to criteria at all, let alone criteria employed by IRCC. It is merely a description I used to highlight the only circumstances in which this faux-issue arises, in that it is NOT relevant for anyone other than someone who was IN another country at least 183 days in the relevant four years, but who is considering checking "no" based on not counting partial days in that country.

"So if you reply that "you were in Buffalo last Saturday", that may imply that "you were not in Canada" last Saturday.

No. That is not true. If someone asks if you were in Buffalo last Saturday, and you were, and you answer "yes," that is a simple and honest answer. It suggests nothing otherwise, implies nothing otherwise. As I noted, if asked this question under oath, there is NO doubt what the proper answer is. If a traveler is asked when was the last time he traveled to the States (I have indeed been asked this at the U.S. border, more than once), and the traveler's last trip was a short day trip, make no mistake, the correct answer would be the day of that day trip.

If someone asks if you were Toronto last Saturday, and you were in Toronto, and you answer "I was in Buffalo last Saturday," that's a classic misrepresentation by omission. That's deception. Even if it is true you were indeed in Buffalo last Saturday. That is not merely implying you were not in Toronto.

And that is largely what this faux-issue is about. Playing word-games. Which in citizenship application processing tends to not go well.

Which is the point I am making. Approaching the citizenship application playing word-games tends to cause more problems than it avoids.

Moreover, especially, the honest answer is the best answer. The honest way to approach this item does not need theorizing or an analysis of the jurisprudence.

Anyone who wants to argue the point with IRCC is missing the point: there is nothing about 183 days in particular that has any bearing on the applicant's qualification for citizenship.

But, approaching this as if there is an arguable posture to be made with IRCC is more than that. As I previously acknowledged, there is a good chance someone can slide through this way, by checking "no" and not including a Police Certificate, based on not counting partial days. BUT if they don't slide through, if an IRCC processing agent notices that the trips add up to 183 days in the U.S., think of the sound of a cash register going chaa-ching in someone's head (probably a grossly outdated metaphor, but oh well). And that cash-register-chaa-ching might not be just ringing in the cost of submitting a police certificate, it could be tabulating doubts about the accuracy of a lot more than that, about the presence calculation itself.

There is, probably, minimal risk of an informal let alone formal allegation of misrepresentation. An applicant's response (if asked) that they did not count partial days in the U.S. because they were not counted as days absent from Canada, should be an explanation which avoids a misrepresentation charge. But anyone who pursues this approach thinking there is minimal risk of it raising red flags about the applicant's credibility, notwithstanding this "argument" or "explanation," is likely to be quite mistaken, the real question being how negatively this might affect the processing agent's perception of the applicant.
 
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Stef.

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So much analysis isn't really necessary.

For counting 'presence in Canada', that day is 1 day in Canada.

For 'police certificate' purpose, that day is 1 day in the US.

Doesn't have to be logical - just make sure CIC gets what it wants.
While I believe, dpenabill’s explanation is the more thorough explanation the above is easier to understand and exactly what I followed when filling out the forms.
 
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a5100

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Oct 24, 2017
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Therefore the most conservative approach would be to count the days of presence in the foreign country in the most disadvantageous way, and if the number approaches 183, request the police certificate anyway.

This is what I did, but I had the luxury of time (I was waiting for C-6 to become effective) and the process to obtain a police certificate from the USA is relatively straightforward and inexpensive. It may not be the case for other countries.
Hello, would you mind explaining the process of obtaining a police certificate from the US? I have seen a couple of posts and it requires obtaining your fingerprints in wet ink - did you do that by yourself or have it done by a law enforcement agency? How long did the whole process take? Any details you could provide would be much appreciated!

I make a lot of weekend trips to the US too and I am coming up to the 183 days limit, so I think it may be worth applying for one just for the peace of mind.