Please help! Can I renter Canada in such situation?

[Oki911]

I found this: ... I'm not allowed to post links.
Go to wikipedia and pull up page: Advance_Passenger_Information_System

And google for this: klm advanced passenger information
as an example of an airline company also mentioning this system, however that works.

We're transitioning from a system where some of the border control happens before leaving the country, instead of worrying about it in the destination country, and that more and more holes are getting plugged up. People used to be able to just have a nice mini meeting with a customs officer when arriving, and all is well, and we're about to have a system where you're scrutinized before leaving. I don't know if right now, things are simply still the way they were, or are in a transitioning phase.
Transitioning phase meaning that the airlines might have been forwarding information to Canada, to get this part introduced and greased up ready to play its role starting March 15.
It could be that this "API" system was started completely independent from the eTA.
I'm not an expert how these systems hang together, but my point is that information flow in ways we might underestimate.

So... it may well be that providing false information upon check-in, might be "remembered" in a database in Canada.

So again, I would try everything I could to get the PRTD.

If not possible, then yes, I might try, but I'm not sure what I would say on check in. Perhaps you're not asked. However, that API system says they *do* collect this information. Is that system implemented, or not? Has anyone been asked the questions on the list? I don't mean that silly blue form that you get in the airplane during the flight. I mean, questions asked before boarding.
Based on previous experience, but that was a long time ago in my case, check in is such a chaotic flow of people and suitcases and labels and waiving passports around, that I couldn't imagine an arbitrary flight helper person (steward/ess) playing Mr/Mrs border patrol. But things probably have changed. Can anyone recently having flown in from overseas for instance, share their experiences? Possibly not a single thing was asked. But then, what's this API system, which supposedly is mandatory and has been before March 15...?
So, *if* they ask, you have a choice. Claim that you're just visiting, or that you are a PR but do not have a PR-Card or travel document. Of course, as mentioned many times, this becomes irrelevant March 15.
If they tell you that you have to have a PR-Card or PRTD, I would tell them that until March 15, this is not a requirement, and that I can provide I am a valid PR once I arrive at customs in Canada.
Is there any evidence of anyone having denied boarding, based on a PR not showing a PR-Card or PRTD?

My point is that the approach I would take, is using only true information. Argue with the airline that you have the right to fly to Canada, as you are a valid PR, and that you can easily prove it (assuming that you have supporting evidence that you are a valid PR, and still are).

The original OP has not come back to discuss things further.

 

[Rob_TO]

So... it may well be that providing false information upon check-in, might be "remembered" in a database in Canada.

No, this is still completely irrelevant. A random airline is not CIC or CBSA. Nothing you say to an airline to gain boarding, will be considered misrepresentation to CIC or CBSA. Only what you state on official Canadian applications or documents, will matter in terms of being remembered by Canada.

If they tell you that you have to have a PR-Card or PRTD, I would tell them that until March 15, this is not a requirement, and that I can provide I am a valid PR once I arrive at customs in Canada.
Is there any evidence of anyone having denied boarding, based on a PR not showing a PR-Card or PRTD?

My point is that the approach I would take, is using only true information. Argue with the airline that you have the right to fly to Canada, as you are a valid PR, and that you can easily prove it (assuming that you have supporting evidence that you are a valid PR, and still are).

This would be a very bad move. As soon as the airline determines you're in fact a PR, they are mandated to then accept only a valid PR card or a PR Travel Document as proof of your PR status to allow boarding. At this point you are no longer flying as a foreign national on a visa-exempt passport, you are flying as a PR. Showing other proofs of your PR status such as COPR or even a photocopy of your PR card, would not be acceptable to an airline since they are not documents the airlines are trained to accept as proof of status. And many airline employees will absolutely refuse to budge on any of the rules from their guidelines.

Perhaps you will find an airline that will still let you fly on your visa-exempt passport after telling them you're a PR, but your odds be being issued the ticket go down drastically. Again the entire basis of a PR flying on just their passport, hinges on being dishonest with the airline, pretending you're a foreign national and hiding your PR status. This will continue indefinitely for US citizens who are also eTA exempt. Anyone who isn't comfortable with this should not even attempt to try it, and should just get the PR TD.

 

[Oki911]

Again the entire basis of a PR flying on just their passport, hinges on being dishonest with the airline, pretending you're a foreign national and hiding your PR status.

What about that API system that forwards information to Canada, that includes what residency the passenger claimed?

 

[Rob_TO]

What about that API system that forwards information to Canada, that includes what residency the passenger claimed?

APIS has been in place for years, it's nothing new. It's used more to determine if a traveler is on any no-fly or watch list.

Also I don't even think PR status would show up on an API form. They ask for things like full name, birthday, passport number, country of residence, nationality, etc. I don't think there's a specific question that asks "Are you a PR of Canada".
The "country of residence" you put on any API input (so either Canada or your country of citizenship) would be irrelevant to CIC or CBSA. It's only important to pre-screen passengers for boarding.

 

[dpenabill]

Reminder: This is essentially a ONE-TIME situation.

In two weeks all this is rendered totally moot. In less than two weeks the OP either gets on the plane or is scrambling to deal with not getting on the plane. In either event, in two weeks there will be NO PRs casually boarding a flight headed for Canada based on displaying a visa-exempt passport (possibly except those with an American passport, albeit the rule itself still applies, that is even American citizens (despite U.S. citizens being exempt from the eTA requirements) who are Canadian PRs need to present either a PR card or PR TD to board a flight to Canada; they may still be able to, in practice, skirt the rule, at least usually or mostly or sometimes).

Yes but i just wrote a real life situation. Sorry if it didn t help. But no need for all the drama.

Sorry that my post came across as harsh or overbearing. No intent to be melodramatic.

Nor did I mean to depreciate the value of reporting a personal experience. Anecdotal reports are indeed an important part of what a forum like this provides.

My post was more focused on emphasizing that the better approach for the OP here was to apply for the PR TD as soon as possible. Either the OP has done that, or is going to take his or her chances at the airport, or has elected to go in some other direction.

Beyond that, no rocket science necessary to recognize that the validity of a course of action is at least somewhat questionable, if not outright suspect, if it requires engaging in deceit, by omission or otherwise (and regardless of any risk of getting caught calculation). This is not merely a moral or ethical factor. In general, in life, if there is an alternative which avoids hiding information or engaging in deceit, that alternative is usually the more practical approach, the approach that tends to work better more often.

Yes, but a PR of Canada that holds a passport from a visa-exempt country does NOT need to voluntarily inform the airline that they are a PR of Canada. Unless asked specifically, they are someone `visiting' Canada.

Again, the context is not about whether it is possible for a PR to board a flight (for a mere two weeks more; after that it may still be possible but the odds will be really poor) without a PR card or PR TD, by displaying a visa-exempt passport.

The context is about what to recommend a PR do when the PR is already abroad sans PR card (accidently left the PR card behind), and has a flight to Canada scheduled sometime next week.

If push comes to shove, and no PR TD is issued before the day of the flight, sure, there are enough reports of PRs still being able to board flights by displaying their visa-exempt passport to make an attempt to do this worthwhile. It may very well work. The odds may even be favourable that it will work.

But again this is a one-off. In general, no matter how viable this approach was in the past, going forward it is NOT at all a practical option, all but totally shut down two weeks from now. While in particular, for this OP, it is clear, the better approach is to apply for the PR TD as soon as possible, and presumably that is what the OP has undertaken to do.



Exit controls and other factors:

Exit controls vary considerably from country to country. I do not know what exit controls there are in Hong Kong, just that there is some exit control.

Exit controls can affect how things go at the airport when proceeding to the terminal and gate for an international flight.

There are other factors which can influence whether or not a particular passenger is screened beyond someone with the airline merely scanning the Travel Document the passenger presents. (I would typically hold my passport open to the bio page and depending on the country and airlines they would examine it or scan it (the identification number is machine readable), without a glance in it beyond that, and I'd be on my way down the ramp or across the tarmac to the steps, whatever the scenario was. But it does not always go so smoothly.)

Presumptions about what occurs at all airports are invariably wrong regarding some airports.

The usual problem with relying on any screener not being aware of this or that is there are so many collateral factors which can reveal that thing, that fact or circumstance, which the individual hopes remains unknown. For a PR who still has the same passport he or she used when landing, there is at least a stamp if not a cancelled counter-foil visa affixed in the passport, easily observed in a casual flip of the passport pages, which overtly discloses this is a PR. Which airline is it? Is the person scanning Travel Documents more or less familiar with travelers to Canada in particular?

As I noted, typically only the government officer conducting exit control might flip through more of my passport than the bio page, but again what happens to a particular passenger on a particular occasion can vary considerably.

And as of three or six days prior to March 15 (actually as of now is my impression), visa-exempt travelers who do not yet have eTA will probably stand out, and thus, at the least, be at higher risk for an additional question or three, or perhaps even further screening.

But how this goes for the OP is probably already on track to go there, wherever it is going to go.

Beyond that, two weeks from tomorrow totally forget any suggestion that PRs without a PR card can use their visa-exempt passport to board a flight headed to Canada. No go.

 

[mikePR]

I see that they've extended the eTA requirement till Fall of 2016.

I guess its worth a shot to try boarding the plane without PRTD?

 

[Rob_TO]

I see that they've extended the eTA requirement till Fall of 2016.

I guess its worth a shot to try boarding the plane without PRTD?

It's really up to you. You would need to be comfortable basically lying to the airline if asked, that you are a foreign national and not a PR. As long as airline views you as a foreign national, then the burden of proof required to board the flight will be the same as any other visa-exempt foreign national.

This may be a better alternative for some vs trying to obtain a PRTD, since that often involves mailing your passport to a visa office and waiting for it to be mailed back. Sometimes this is quick and easy, and other times it's not. Lots depends on the country you're in. If anything were to happen causing delay in receiving back passport, one could find themselves stuck outside Canada causing significant costs and inconvenience. Choice is up to the traveler, so best they know the pros and cons of each method.

 

[dpenabill]

I see that they've extended the eTA requirement till Fall of 2016.

I guess its worth a shot to try boarding the plane without PRTD?

To be clear, IRCC has implemented a "leniency period" beyond the date for mandatory enforcement. What this means for PRs is not at all clear.

The applicable rule is clear: PRs are supposed to present either a PR card or PR TD. For those who do not, even if they present a visa-exempt passport, the current information on the IRCC website clearly cautions that such PRs may experience delays or be denied boarding.

Whether practices prior to the implementation of eTA (which was last year, mandatory as of March 15 this year, now subject to the "leniency period" til "fall") will continue, such that PRs with visa-exempt passports can in practice be allowed to board a flight to Canada by displaying a visa-exempt passport, is a matter of disagreement.

For example, there is this post today:

Right now, visa-exempt PRs can board on the strength of their passport, as they've always been able to.

That is not the rule. It is merely an opinion. I do not have an opinion as to how it will go for any particular individual. But I am quite sure there is NO guarantee at all that "visa-exempt PRs can board on the strength of their passport." That rather, as the IRCC website FAQ explicitly cautions, PRs not presenting a PR card or PR TD may experience a delay or be denied boarding.


What is the risk?

I do not know the probability the rule will be enforced for any particular PR. I am highly skeptical of anyone else's generalizations as to what the probabilities are. I am sure they vary from individual to individual, country to country, among other factors.

What the risk itself entails varies some from individual to individual.

For a PR already abroad, the risk is experiencing a delay or being denied boarding, no impact on PR status. PR could then still obtain a PR TD (if eligible of course) and book a later flight.

For a PR planning future travel, and planning to return to Canada by, say, late summer, I would suggest properly applying for a new PR card and requesting urgent processing. If the PR's circumstances are such that problems obtaining urgent processing can be anticipated, or are encountered after applying, that in turn suggests more risk is involved in going abroad.

Put another way: before going abroad without a current PR card, best to be prepared to apply for and obtain a PR Travel Document, and if problems doing so can be anticipated (potential PR RO issues for example), the risks involved in going abroad are potentially more severe than merely a delay returning to Canada.

Or, for awhile, one can rely on some forum opinions that the leniency period means no problem.

 

[induscan]

After March 15th, can I still use my COPR to "re-enter" Canada in a private car, crossing US/Canada border? (i'm not an US citizen)
Please advise. I am driving tomorrow and i'm in confusion now...

 

[dpenabill]

After March 15th, can I still use my COPR to "re-enter" Canada in a private car, crossing US/Canada border? (i'm not an US citizen)
Please advise. I am driving tomorrow and i'm in confusion now...

If you are in the U.S., and drive to a land-crossing POE, to enter Canada all you need to do is prove identity (who you are; passport best document to evidence this) and prove status (CoPR in conjunction with passport should readily suffice). Even lacking proof of status, proof of identity will usually enable CBSA to verify your status, though this may result in a bit more of a delay at the POE.

A PR is entitled to enter Canada (generally, there are some security exceptions).

However, admissibility can be assessed at the POE (PR examined for compliance with the PR Residency Obligation for example). Even if determined to be inadmissible, the PR is nonetheless entitled to enter Canada; worst case scenario is being reported and issued a Removal Order which can be appealed, but still being allowed into Canada in the meantime.

 

[induscan]

If you are in the U.S., and drive to a land-crossing POE, to enter Canada all you need to do is prove identity (who you are; passport best document to evidence this) and prove status (CoPR in conjunction with passport should readily suffice). Even lacking proof of status, proof of identity will usually enable CBSA to verify your status, though this may result in a bit more of a delay at the POE.

A PR is entitled to enter Canada (generally, there are some security exceptions).

However, admissibility can be assessed at the POE (PR examined for compliance with the PR Residency Obligation for example). Even if determined to be inadmissible, the PR is nonetheless entitled to enter Canada; worst case scenario is being reported and issued a Removal Order which can be appealed, but still being allowed into Canada in the meantime.

Thanks a lot! I feel safe now...

 

[canuck_in_uk]

For example, there is this post today:

How it WILL BE, once the eTA is mandatory. Right now, visa-exempt PRs can board on the strength of their passport, as they've always been able to.

That is not the rule. It is merely an opinion. I do not have an opinion as to how it will go for any particular individual. But I am quite sure there is NO guarantee at all that "visa-exempt PRs can board on the strength of their passport." That rather, as the IRCC website FAQ explicitly cautions, PRs not presenting a PR card or PR TD may experience a delay or be denied boarding.

You just keep missing the point with your essays. One more time, unless a person tells the airline they are a PR, the airline WON'T KNOW and therefore won't ask for a PR card or PRTD. As with the MILLIONS of other visa-exempt people who travel to Canada every year, there is pretty much no chance of an airline refusing to board them.

Also, in addition to the evidence from the countless number of people on this forum who have done this, CBSA (you know, the people who actually control the border) also tell people to do it. The officer who landed my partner told us that if the PR card didn't arrive before our planned holiday 2 months later, my partner could just return to Canada on the strength of his British passport; there was ZERO mention of a PRTD.

 

[dpenabill]

For Context and Clarity: A Comprehensive Summary

Why is it important to illuminate and emphasize that the current rule requires PRs to present a PR card or PR TD when boarding a flight to Canada even if they have a visa-exempt passport? Even if it is very easy to board a flight without having the strict rule enforced (for a limited, short and indefinite leniency period of time only)?

Not all PRs are in a similar let alone the same situation. The risk of problems, and more significantly the scope of potential consequences if there is a problem, varies a great deal from one PR to the next. Recommendations based on declarative propositions as if equally applicable to all (such as to all PRs carrying a visa-exempt passport) are inherently flawed, over-generalizations, and in some, if not many circumstances, misleading or outright reckless.

Additionally, recommendations to ignore the rules because it is easy to avoid enforcement of the rules, are inherently not good advice. Basic common-sense alone is all that is necessary to recognize this.


In any event, for PRs planning to travel abroad there is NO DOUBT, none whatsoever, that following the rules is the best approach to minimize the risk of any delay in returning to Canada. There is NO DOUBT, none whatsoever, that the best course of action is for a PR to have a valid PR card when traveling abroad.

Alternatively, the next best approach is to be prepared to obtain a PR TD for purposes of boarding a flight to Canada. (And indeed, for some, this is the primary option, such as for those PRs living abroad, without a valid PR card, but still in compliance with the PR RO; spouses of Canadian citizens being the most common situation.)

Suggestions to the contrary are simply wrong, no matter how easy it is to skirt or otherwise avoid enforcement of the rules.

I make this observation recognizing there are many who will weigh how easy it is to avoid enforcement of the rule (that being that the "appropriate travel documents" for PRs, as required for boarding flights to Canada, are either a PR card or a PR TD) and rely on their visa-exempt passports.

I have offered no opinion regarding how easy it is, or is not, for PRs to continue being successful in boarding flights to Canada. I do not dispute it has been very easy in the past. I do not dispute it will continue to be relatively easy, perhaps even still quite easy going forward for a short, unknown period of time (during the indefinite leniency period for eTA enforcment).

I do suggest, however, that how easy it has been in the past is NOT a reliable indicator of how easy it is now, let alone going forward.

As to what is actually happening, and how this will progress going forward, for anyone actually interested in this I suggest doing some homework, including research into the Interactive Advance Passenger Information (IAPI) initiative, including the backgrounders, Regulatory Impact Analysis Statements, changes and proposed changes to regulations under the IRPA and the Customs Act, and some statutory amendments.

Make no mistake: The relationship between the airlines and IRCC and CBSA are increasingly interactive, and not only is the scope and depth of the information (relative to Advance Passenger Information, not just Passenger Name Record) increasing, airline personnel are increasingly working cooperatively with CBSA liaison officers overseas. What the airlines will or will not know is less certain than many assert.

The eTA program is but one piece of the overall system being implemented.

The good news, temporarily, is that yes, to some extent the cooperation between the airlines and CBSA liaison officers overseas probably means many PRs presenting only a visa-exempt passport will be allowed to board a flight to Canada even if they do not have a currently valid PR card or PR TD. The rules are not intended to prevent legitimate, admissible PRs from boarding a flight to Canada.

There is, nonetheless, a risk some will not.

Again, I make no effort to quantify that risk relative to a probability of the rule's strict enforcement. The opinion there is no such risk is contrary to the cautions posted on many, many web pages at both CBSA and IRCC. It is also contrary to common sense, in that, again, there is no doubt, none at all, the lowest-risk-approach is to travel with a valid PR card, or at least to alternatively be prepared to obtain a PR TD for a return flight to Canada.

I had declined (in the recent past, in a discussion essentially the same as this with Rob_TO) to go into details underlying why it is apparent there is a significant risk, which would include why the risks are evolving, increasing, since there is nonetheless still no way to reliably quantify the risks even understanding as much of the relevant information as the public has access to regarding the Interactive Advance Passenger Information (IAPI) initiative and other related changes taking place, among which again the eTA is but one piece. The details are complicated. Some are technical. My observations get bogged down enough in the details and thus tend to be overly long. And for a time it may indeed continue to be relatively easy or even quite easy to avoid enforcement of the rules.

No matter how easy it is to avoid enforcement of the rule (to present a PR card or PR TD), however, that does not change what the rule is and does NOT guarantee any particular PR will be allowed to board a flight on the strength of a visa-exempt passport.

Thus, it is simply NOT correct to insist that "Right now, visa-exempt PRs can board on the strength of their passport, as they've always been able to."

They might be, and it may be true they usually will be, but there is no guarantee they will be, and no matter how easy it is now, this is only for a short, indefinite period of time.



Thus:

You just keep missing the point with your essays. One more time, unless a person tells the airline they are a PR, the airline WON'T KNOW and therefore won't ask for a PR card or PRTD.

Sorry, you are wrong. I do not miss the point. As has been clearly stated I disagree with your point; I disagree with your opinion.

That disagreement is in large part due to the rule itself, which is not opinion, which is not complicated, and which is patently clear: to board a flight destined for Canada, the rule specifies that a PR must present either a PR card or a PR TD. And the IRCC website clearly cautions PRs that this is the requirement and they may experience delays or being denied boarding if they do not present a PR card or PR TD.

That the rule has not always been fully enforced, in the past, only illustrates that yes, at least some, maybe many, maybe even most, have been able to do this successfully. That may be some indication that despite the caution at the IRCC site, some or many PRs may still succeed in doing this.

It does not, however, support the declarative statement:
"Right now, visa-exempt PRs can board on the strength of their passport, as they've always been able to."

Thus, again, they might, but only if the rule is not actually enforced.

You keep insisting how easy it is to avoid enforcement of the rule. That is what is missing the point. My observations are, in contrast, aimed at providing information and insight into what the rules are and how to best navigate the system, which is usually accomplished by following the rules.

Sure, many are not so inclined to follow the rules when it is easy to get away with skirting them. And I fully acknowledge some PRs may indeed continue to rely on the opinion that it is so easy to avoid enforcement of this rule they remain comfortable traveling without a PR card. And I acknowledge the net risk is low for most PRs, including any PR who would have no problem obtaining a PR TD if the need arises while abroad.

The reality, however, is that many of those PRs who do not have a PR card also potentially have PR Residency Obligation issues (from the perspective of IRCC) and if per chance they are among the unlucky (or "stupid" as you describe them) for whom the rule is enforced, and they need to obtain a PR TD, the risk is substantially greater.

Additionally, even among those PRs who should have no problem obtaining a PR TD, if again they are among the unlucky facing enforcement of the rule (my opinion is that as time goes by and the IAPI initiative is more fully implemented, the extent of enforcement will increase, and indeed it is my opinion the rule is likely being more often enforced as of now, but yes this part is just my opinion), many would find any delay in their scheduled return to Canada extremely inconvenient. Many have jobs, for example, or other commitments, they need to return to by a date certain. Risking even a short delay is not worth it for many.

For these individuals, these PRS, there is NO DOUBT, none whatsoever, that following the rules will work the best in avoiding any delay in returning to Canada. There is NO DOUBT, none whatsoever, that the best course of action is for a PR to have a valid PR card when traveling abroad. Alternatively, the next best approach is to be prepared to obtain a PR TD.



As for the assertion that there is "evidence from [a] countless number of people on this forum who have done this."

Not true. No where near true. No one has reported doing this since March 15, the date eTA became mandatory (but now subject to an indefinite leniency period).

And there are no more than a small number of sporadic reports since eTA was implemented last year, and while the number reporting no problem exceeds the number reporting a problem, some do report problems, including the PR who explicitly reported he could not obtain boarding (for a flight to Canada) by showing a visa-exempt passport at the Dublin airport. And that was last September or October, not long after eTA was implemented.

I am quite sure I get it. That I understand what the issues are, what is at stake, what the rule is. It is certain that the lowest-risk approach is to be sure to travel with a valid PR card, or at the least be prepared to obtain a PR TD.

I am quite sure that recommending an approach that relies on the rules not being enforced is at least somewhat suspect, for obvious reasons.

 

[canuck_in_uk]

It's like bashing my head against a wall....

 

[kateg]

It's like bashing my head against a wall....

So stop. He's disagreeing with you, and defending his position (as intellectually honest people generally do).

There's a chance the airline will ask your status. If you lie to them, they won't know, and there will almost certainly be no problems. If they do ask, and you tell them truth, there's a good chance they won't let you board. I've personally had issues in the past - my PR card took a long time to arrive.

Lying to the airline is technically a crime. Nobody has ever been punished for it as far as I've been able to find, but there is a record if CBSA ever decides to look. You can gamble, for now. It's less risky to do things right with a PRTD or PR card.