Permanent Resident - how to renew the PR Card outside of Canada??

[Confused in Toronto]

I am a Norwegian citizen, and since 1997 I have been a permanent resident of Canada. For the past 5 years, I have been living with my Canadian spouse in Switzerland. I have been informed that because I am living abroad with my Canadian husband due to his job commitments, I am fulfilling my residency requirements in Canada.

We intend to move back to Canada within the next 5-7 years, once my youngest son finishes school here in Switzerland.

At the moment, my PR card has been expired for a few years. Full disclosure: I have been visiting Canada, using my Norwegian passport, without any problems at all. Now however, with the new ETA on March 15th, I am worried that I could be in trouble if I do not enter with a travel document.

I have researched how to get a travel document to get to Canada, but as I am currently living in Switzerland, I am being referred to the Paris Visa Office (CVAC). My understanding is that this office is a private company that has been authorized to deal with visa applications on behalf of the Canadian government. I would much prefer to deal directly with the Canadian authorities, but this seems to be very difficult indeed.

1. I have to either travel in person to Paris to submit my application or send them my application along with my passport. Based on an email response from CVAC, they cannot tell me how long processing will be, which means I am without my only passport for an unspecified amount of time. Living in Europe, you use your passport quite a bit, so this is problematic.

2. The travel document is only good for one entry, which I assume means I have to go though this process every time I visit Canada? Bearing in mind that my family is all Canadian, and my oldest son is currently studying at a Canadian university, we visit quite regularly. It is not feasible for me to have to travel to France first every time we want to go to Canada, and then not know how long the processing time will be...

3. I cannot apply to renew my PR card outside of Canada. Inside of Canada, I have to have an address to send the card to. But we live in Switzerland! How is this going to be possible for me, unless I give the address of a friend? Is that even legal?

4. Can I simply travel to Canada on my Norwegian passport (with an ETA from March 15th) and fake ignorance? I worry that I will be somehow jeopardizing my status, bearing in mind that we will eventually settle back in Canada.

All of this would be solved if I could only apply for the PR card from Switzerland...argh!

Thanks so much for taking the time to read all of this - I hope someone who's been in a similar situation can provide some advice on what to do.

Heidi - confused in Switzerland at the moment.

 

[Leon]

It's a bit tricky. A PR card application should originate inside Canada. However, they can not blankly refuse it just because you are not in Canada yourself. Hence you could fill out the PR card application but be clear that you do not live in Canada and that you are using a friends address as a Canadian mailing address. Since there is no room for all that on the form, I suggest writing a cover letter. By question 13, you put your friends address. By question 12 you can write "see cover letter" or change the wording of the question because you definitely to not want to claim that you have a residential address in Canada.

Include some proof of living with your husband for the past 5 years like official mail from you both to the same address, your marriage certificate, a copy of his passport and a statement from him would not be a bad idea either.

Since the application should originate inside Canada, you should mail it to your friend and ask your friend to mail it to immigration for you. It may be better if you go to Canada and mail it yourself but this too has worked for some while I have heard of applications being denied because they were mailed from outside Canada.

Be aware that they may put your application under scrutiny because of your situation and they will almost certainly request that you pick up your PR card in person at a local office in Canada instead of mailing it to your friends address so in that case, you can apply for a PR travel document, showing the same proof that you meet the residency obligation and that you are going to Canada to pick up your PR card. Expect a processing time of at least 6 months.

As for your plan to let your kids finish school before you move, keep in mind that as your children grow older, the less likely it will be that they choose to come with you. I know a few families who have moved with teenagers. When the oldest is 15 or 16 it can still work out but when the youngest is 15 or 16, the older children may choose to stay where they are, where they have studies or a job, friends, social life, boy or girlfriend etc. and the youngest may be tempted to re-join his siblings once he reaches 18. Of course this is something for you as a family to decide when the time comes.

 

[Confused in Toronto]

Thanks Leon for taking the time to reply (and I do hear you about the children not wanting to move with us necessarily...at the moment, my youngest is determined to go to uni in Canada, let's just hope he doesn't change his mind...).

Currently, I have plans to go to Canada in the spring (to help my oldest out of residence at university) and again in the fall. I suppose I could apply for two PR travel documents at the same time?

My concern is that I don't know how long processing is, and I am worried that I will be without passport for weeks on end.

Do you think it would be a very bad idea to just enter on my Norwegian passport in light of the new ETA requirements?

I will take your advice on the PR card and go ahead and send the application when I am in Canada in the spring. I don't mind the extra scrutiny being put on my application. I don't have anything to hide. I really want to follow the rules. I just wish they would be easier to follow!

 

[dpenabill]

am a Norwegian citizen, and since 1997 I have been a permanent resident of Canada. For the past 5 years, I have been living with my Canadian spouse in Switzerland. I have been informed me that because I am living abroad with my Canadian husband due to his job commitments, I am fulfilling my residency requirements in Canada.

We intend to move back to Canada within the next 5-7 years, once my youngest son finishes school here in Switzerland.

At the moment, my PR card has been expired for a few years. Full disclosure: I have been visiting Canada, using my Norwegian passport, without any problems at all. Now however, with the new ETA on March 15th, I am worried that I could be in trouble if I do not enter with a travel document.

I have researched how to get a travel document to get to Canada, but as I am currently living in Switzerland, I am being referred to the Paris Visa Office (CVAC). My understanding is that this office is a private company that has been authorized to deal with visa applications on behalf of the Canadian government. I would much prefer to deal directly with the Canadian authorities, but this seems to be very difficult indeed.

1. I have to either travel in person to Paris to submit my application or send them my application along with my passport. Based on an email response from CVAC, they cannot tell me how long processing will be, which means I am without my only passport for an unspecified amount of time. Living in Europe, you use your passport quite a bit, so this is problematic.

2. The travel document is only good for one entry, which I assume means I have to go though this process every time I visit Canada? Bearing in mind that my family is all Canadian, and my oldest son is currently studying at a Canadian university, we visit quite regularly. It is not feasible for me to have to travel to France first every time we want to go to Canada, and then not know how long the processing time will be...

3. I cannot apply to renew my PR card outside of Canada. Inside of Canada, I have to have an address to send the card to. But we live in Switzerland! How is this going to be possible for me, unless I give the address of a friend? Is that even legal?

4. Can I simply travel to Canada on my Norwegian passport (with an ETA from March 15th) and fake ignorance? I worry that I will be somehow jeopardizing my status, bearing in mind that we will eventually settle back in Canada.

All of this would be solved if I could only apply for the PR card from Switzerland...argh!

Thanks so much for taking the time to read all of this - I hope someone who's been in a similar situation can provide some advice on what to do.

Heidi - confused in Switzerland at the moment.

General answer:

The current CIC/IRCC approach strongly discourages replacing PR card for a PR who resides abroad, preferring the PR to obtain and use a PR Travel Document for traveling to Canada.

Yes, this imposes inconvenience for PRs who have been living abroad for many years (thus those whose PR cards are expired), who are mostly PRs living abroad with a Canadian citizen spouse.

Actually this has always been the case for PRs who do not carry a visa-exempt passport. All that has really changed is that going forward, all PRs (with some exceptions, like those who are American citizens) are subject to the same rules, no favoritism for PRs from visa-exempt countries. That is, now PRs who carry a visa-exempt passport must go through the process of obtaining a PR TD just like all other PRs living abroad without a valid PR card.

It really is that simple, with just a few wrinkles.

One wrinkle is that most who carry a visa-exempt passport can travel via the U.S., and among those who do not have a passport which allows them to travel via the U.S. there are also those who have visas allowing them to travel via the U.S.; these PRs can travel to the U.S. and then by car into Canada, entering Canada at a land crossing POE. For PRs without a currently valid PR card, scrutiny at the POE may be more elevated going forward than it has in the past, but passport, plus CoPR or Record of Landing or expired PR card, plus a few documents to show compliance with the PR Residency Obligation, should easily suffice to obtain entry into Canada without a snag (PRs must be allowed entry, the question is whether or not there is a PR RO concern resulting in a 44(1) inadmissibility report; the burden of showing compliance with the PR RO is on the PR).

Another wrinkle is that some PRs living abroad will return to Canada briefly, make the application for the PR card while physically in Canada (as is required per the eligibility stated at the CIC/IRCC website). There are potential pitfalls in doing this. It would be unwise to succumb to the temptation to use another's address as one's own residential address or to otherwise make any misrepresentation or give misleading information (the foolishness of doing this should be obvious, but many do it anyway, enough successfully so as to mask how utterly foolish this is, particularly since the consequences for making misrepresentations are now more severe than previously). Current processing times make this approach inconvenient, particularly since there is an elevated risk the PR with a history of living abroad (and it would be a serious misrepresentation to attempt to conceal this) will at least be required to pick up the PR card in person, if not subject to at least secondary review (perhaps even a PR Residency Determination unless the PR submitted clearly sufficient documentation to show compliance with the PR RO).


Some more particular observations:

Regarding the questions about the procedure for obtaining a PR Travel Document, I have no sources of information illuminating much about that. There have been virtually no reports in this or other similar forums regarding this situation since those in a similar circumstance have, like you, traveled easily just using their visa-exempt passport. We are just now beginning to see reports, mostly from Europeans in similar circumstances, about the process for obtaining a PR TD in Europe.

I may be a minority of one with the opinion that it is a good idea to simply do what is necessary to apply for and obtain the PR Travel Document. But particularly for someone in your situation, whole family being Canadian citizens, periodic or even frequent travel to Canada over the years, unless there is some rather unusual snag the procedure and timeline for obtaining a PR TD should be relatively easy and short (few weeks or less). Once this is done there will be a FOSS record reflecting the PR Residency Determination which necessarily is done attendant the grant of a PR TD. Once done this should make it fast and easy to do the next time, and make the application for a PR card routine once you finally settle in Canada. This is undoubtedly the approach CIC/IRCC prefers!

3. I cannot apply to renew my PR card outside of Canada. Inside of Canada, I have to have an address to send the card to. But we live in Switzerland! How is this going to be possible for me, unless I give the address of a friend? Is that even legal?

What would be illegal would be to make any misrepresentation, or otherwise give misleading information, in the PR card application.

As noted above, not all PRs are mailed the new PR card and a PR with history of living abroad is probably more likely to be at least required to pick up the card in person.

As noted above, many appear to fudge the facts some in the effort to obtain a new PR card despite living abroad. Many appear to do so successfully, without obvious repercussions. To my view, potentially compromising one's credibility with CIC/IRCC (or more serious consequences) is not worth avoiding the inconvenience of having to obtain the PR TD.

4. Can I simply travel to Canada on my Norwegian passport (with an ETA from March 15th) and fake ignorance? I worry that I will be somehow jeopardizing my status, bearing in mind that we will eventually settle back in Canada.

Canadian PRs are not eligible to be issued the eTA.

Can a PR nonetheless apply for and obtain eTA? I can recall seeing only a couple reports from PRs with visa-exempt passports who say they applied for the eTA and were denied, so it is not entirely clear that indeed a Canadian PR will be denied eTA. Just clear that they are supposed to be denied eTA. I have not seen what information is submitted in the application for eTA. Perhaps it requires the applicant to divulge PR status. If so, no eTA would be available, practically as well as per the rules.

As noted above, though, you can probably travel to Canada via the U.S., using your Norwegian passport. For example, it would be easy to fly to Buffalo, NY and have someone from the GTA or Niagara region drive to Buffalo to pick you up by private car (or fly to Detroit if that someone lives in SW Ontario; or Seattle if they live in or near Vancouver; New York, NY if they live in Montreal, and so on). For a PR who has periodically been coming and going, only a slightly elevated examination at the POE (brief referral to secondary) seems likely, if not simply waived through at the PIL, but best to be carrying documents showing compliance with PR RO.


Reminder; proof of compliance with PR RO:

If traveling with Canadian citizen spouse, should be no problem at all.

Otherwise, and in an application for a PR TD, be sure to have at least:

-- proof of marriage (copy of marriage certificate)

-- proof of spouse's Canadian citizenship (copy of passport or Canadian birth certificate)

-- some proof of cohabiting abroad

 

[Confused in Toronto]

Thank you!

Just one point of clarification - do you mean that CIC does not want me to renew my PR card until we live in Canada again? I thought they wanted me to do it, but only to do it within Canada and pick it up in person.

If I did apply to renew the PR card, I would state that we live in Switzerland, and that the address used would not be my own. Would that essentially ensure that my request would be denied?

I am curious as to whether they ever issue multiple-entry travel documents - that could also solve the conundrum...

Heidi

 

[Leon]

Thank you!

Just one point of clarification - do you mean that CIC does not want me to renew my PR card until we live in Canada again? I thought they wanted me to do it, but only to do it within Canada and pick it up in person.

If I did apply to renew the PR card, I would state that we live in Switzerland, and that the address used would not be my own. Would that essentially ensure that my request would be denied?

I am curious as to whether they ever issue multiple-entry travel documents - that could also solve the conundrum...

Heidi

CIC is making it complicated for PR's who don't live in Canada but still meet the RO. However, they can not refuse to renew your PR card simply because you are outside Canada. You can find their operational manuals here: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/ and under enforcement you find the manual for the permanent resident card: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/enf/enf27-eng.pdf

On page 14, it says:

R56(2) states clearly that a PR card application must be made in Canada. Furthermore, the card must be delivered in person to each applicant, pursuant to R58(3), and be picked up within 180 days of the person receiving notification that it is ready for collection. This enhances the integrity of the application process, allowing the local office to contact the client to review documentation and assess residency issues in person. However, it is recognized that the Regulations do not specify physical presence in Canada for purposes of filing a PR card application. Applications cannot be refused solely on the basis of evidence that the applicant was not in Canada when the application was filed. However, applicants are expected to provide an address in Canada where they may be contacted to provide additional information or to present themselves in person for the purposes of reviewing either identification or eligibility for the PR card. The CPC may refer a case to a local CIC if all or part of the application originated from outside Canada, and if there are questions as to the client’s identity, status or residency history, or the authenticity of the documentation. Clients must report in person to pick up their card in Canada, in accordance with R58(3)

I do not think you can apply for two travel documents at the same time. You can apply for one now in order to make sure you have it by spring. They are generally valid for 6 months. After travelling, you can apply again when you get home in order to make sure you have one by fall. While you are in Canada in spring, you can apply to renew your PR card. However, there is no guarantee that you will have it by fall in order to pick it up then. However, it might be if you apply right now.

 

[dpenabill]

Thank you!

Just one point of clarification - do you mean that CIC does not want me to renew my PR card until we live in Canada again? I thought they wanted me to do it, but only to do it within Canada and pick it up in person.

If I did apply to renew the PR card, I would state that we live in Switzerland, and that the address used would not be my own. Would that essentially ensure that my request would be denied?

I am curious as to whether they ever issue multiple-entry travel documents - that could also solve the conundrum...

Heidi

Again, IRCC (used to be CIC) prefers that PRs living abroad, who do not have currently valid PR cards, use the process of obtaining a PR Travel Document.

It is true that a PR abroad without a valid PR card is presumed to not have valid PR status. But that is mostly a presumption which clearly puts the burden of proof on the PR and in no way does it give IRCC discretion to deny a PR TD to a PR who is in compliance with the PR RO . . . this is why it is so important to be sure to include proof of marriage, spouse's citizenship, and cohabitation when applying for the PR TD.

While there are probably multiple reasons underlying the policy, one is obvious: to more regularly screen PR RO compliance for those PRs living abroad. (Among collateral reasons, better screening for purposes of supporting other departments of government such as related to qualification for resident benefits.)

If I did apply to renew the PR card, I would state that we live in Switzerland, and that the address used would not be my own. Would that essentially ensure that my request would be denied?

As Leon noted, the mere fact that a PR is abroad when the PR card application is being processed is not a ground for denying the application.

But as also noted, IRCC is making it complicated for such PRs to obtain a new PR card. To my view this is an understatement, that the complications amount to significant hurdles which substantially discourage this. There are, for example, particular policies about what is mailed to a representative's address, and of course there is a specific requirement about disclosing the use of a representative. If someone else is collecting your mail, they are a representative and should be properly disclosed in the application. Again, many have reported fudging in this area to one extent or another, more than a few having success, but there are plenty of others who have expressed much frustration and consternation when it does not go so well (many of whom tend to not share the extent to which they had attempted to fudge this or that in their application for the PR card).

Bottom-line, unless you are staying in Canada, if you properly provide truthful information in the application, you may have an opportunity to return to Canada and simply go to the local IRCC office and pick up the new PR card. But it is more likely it will not be that simple and just the timing alone tends to make this rather inconvenient.

To be frank, my sense is that most of the recent reports of successfully doing this (there are not many; things have changed) involve someone fudging this or that in how they go about doing it. This is not recommended for anyone who is clearly in compliance with the PR RO and who can travel via the U.S. or relatively easily obtain a PR TD.

Again, I have seen few reports of the process for obtaining a PR TD in Europe and am not personally familiar with it, but it is nonetheless my strong impression that the visa offices abroad will facilitate fairly prompt issuance of the PR TD to qualified PRs, and again that when this has been done once for a particular PR, it will be even easier and faster the next time.

Regarding getting the PR TD, yes there are various horror stories floating about the forums and the internet. No reason to be alarmed by those. While there may be isolated stuff happens scenarios for qualified PRs, mostly there is low risk of a problem unless the PR is careless in making the PR TD application -- as already noted, it is important that proper proof be submitted with it.

There is no hint of a multi-entry PR TD coming.

In this regard, while the eTA policy and practice itself (which is what has changed things so much for PRs who have a visa-exempt passport) is largely a product of pressure from the U.S. to increase security screening and to more efficiently screen visa-exempt travelers coming to Canada, it is worth noting that most of the system was designed by a small inner circle of advisers to PM Harper during the last four years of the Harper majority government. They tended to not obtain or consider much from outside, not even from CIC let alone stakeholders or the public generally, and at least in other areas revealed a failure to consider important factors (which at least consulting with CIC could have alerted them to the presence of problematic issues).

We do not know the extent to which there are PRs living abroad with Canadian citizen spouses who are going to be affected by the changes. It is feasible that the way this is implemented was designed with little regard to the number of PRs living with Canadian citizen spouses who travel to Canada regularly. Thus, for example, we have little idea to what extent this change is going to increase workloads at Canada's visa offices abroad. It may indeed prove to be something which imposes a far bigger burden than was anticipated.

That is, if indeed this proves to be an unwieldy and troublesome change, there may very well be further changes to address the problems, such as a relaxation of the more stringent PR card application process for PRs not currently residing in Canada (this is another aspect of things which evolved toward the imposition of higher hurdles under the Harper government) or perhaps, as you suggest, a process for issuing multi-entry PR TDs.

But for now, it is what it is. And there is little doubt that the PR TD is the approach preferred by IRCC.

 

[Confused in Toronto]

Thank you again, both of you, for such thoughtful and detailed replies.

Apropos the thought that perhaps this system wasn't totally thought through in terms of consequences for PRs living abroad with their Canadian spouses - it is a paradox that my Norwegian parents can visit Canada much more easily than I can now, even though I have lived and contributed to Canadian society and paid taxes etc. for years. I do feel a little bit 'punished' by the system for simply moving with my husband because his job required it.

However, onwards and upwards. I shall take the excellent advice from both of you. Begin the application for the TD by going to France, and also submit an application for renewal of my PR card when I am (hopefully) admitted back into Canada in the spring.

Great forum. Thank you!

 

[spyfy]

Since the others already answered most questions very thoughtfully, I only want to comment on one aspect: The Visa Application Centres.

I don't think you can go around using the VAC offices. About three years ago, when I wasn't a PR yet and I needed a study permit, I tried to apply directly to the Vienna Embassy (responsible for Germany) since I didn't like those VACs either. Four weeks later I got a call from Vienna telling me that I have to use the VAC or the (newly available) online process and that they will return all documents to me.

These VAC only pre-process the documents, they don't make decisions. They have one purpose: Take care of all those applications who are too stupid to read a document checklist before filing an application. Now you have to pay a VAC like 30 Euros simply for looking over your documents and check that everything is complete. It's really annoying, actually.

But yeah, you can't get around them.

 

[Confused in Toronto]

Thanks, I have found that too. Moreover at the moment, it looks as if it will be at least an extra 150 dollars for them to "manage" the process. That is on top of the 50 dollar application fee to CIC....hmmm...

 

[conn1]

Hi, Iam Swiss with a expired PR card living in Switzerland married to a Canadian citizen. We are going through pretty much the same ordeal as you describe, I have managed to get 2 PRTD in the past but they were both only valid for 6 months. I always say if something happened to a family member living in Canada it would be impossible for me to go there on short notice.
I would be really interested to find out if you ever did apply to get a PR card while living abroad, I hope to hear from you. thank you

 

[steaky]

Hi, Iam Swiss with a expired PR card living in Switzerland married to a Canadian citizen. We are going through pretty much the same ordeal as you describe, I have managed to get 2 PRTD in the past but they were both only valid for 6 months. I always say if something happened to a family member living in Canada it would be impossible for me to go there on short notice.
I would be really interested to find out if you ever did apply to get a PR card while living abroad, I hope to hear from you. thank you

If you are just responding to an old post, why don't you just send a conversation with that particular poster (especially that poster has not been active for almost 6 months)?