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Missing pivotal trip on cbsa record

UnsureMay

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Feb 20, 2018
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Hi everyone. New here and have read through many threads of missing travel records, but in my case, the missing trip is actually crucial to the 1095 day calculation (actually there were other missing entries, but this one really hurts). Both entry and exit were by car across the US Canadian border. This was a relatively short trip back to Canada with friends while being away for almost a year. Since I have been away from Canada, excluding this trip will put me under 1095, and if I don't apply, I stand to lose accumulated days so that I'll need to wait until 2020 to apply, that is provided I stay in Canada full-time during this period. Unfortunately, it looks like I won't be able to use days outside of 5 years in the calculation now.

So I guess my dilemma is, if I apply, how soon will I know that I got rejected due to missing days? If my application gets rejected, will this decision negatively affect future applications?
 

meyakanor

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Jul 26, 2013
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Visa Office......
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AOR Received.
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If you are not a US citizen, you should be able to check your I-94 record from the CBP website. The date that you supposedly entered Canada should be recorded as a departure from the US.

https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/home
 
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robinhood_1984

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Jan 22, 2018
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If you are not a US citizen, you should be able to check your I-94 record from the CBP website. The date that you supposedly entered Canada should be recorded as a departure from the US.

https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/home
I have found the US I94 records quite terrible for exits (ie, entry in to Canada)

I'm a truck driver and currently have 273 different absences from Canada in the past 5 years so obviously I can only go back through the last 100 on the US I94 website and there are many occasions where I have two consecutive entries in to the US with no exit record in between in to Canada. I don't know if this is merely a lack of communication between the US and Canadian authorities as I've read that the I94 records are notoriously unreliable, or if its because CBSA agents didn't scan my PR card properly on arrival at the Canadian border, meaning that my records of arrival are completely missing. I've ordered my travel report history from CBSA so hopefully will get that back within the next month.
 

UnsureMay

Newbie
Feb 20, 2018
4
0
If you are not a US citizen, you should be able to check your I-94 record from the CBP website. The date that you supposedly entered Canada should be recorded as a departure from the US.

https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/home
Thanks, Meyakanor. As a matter of fact, I am a US citizen. Do you know if FOIA shows accurate records of all modes of exits and entries? My friend was the driver of this trip, but I do recall agent asked to see all of our documents. I just don't know if he recorded everything correctly.
 

clearly

Star Member
Jul 12, 2013
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Thanks, Meyakanor. As a matter of fact, I am a US citizen. Do you know if FOIA shows accurate records of all modes of exits and entries? My friend was the driver of this trip, but I do recall agent asked to see all of our documents. I just don't know if he recorded everything correctly.
It was mostly accurate for me, although occasionally showed double entries on the same day. And more annoyingly it showed my entry to the US on my return flight to Canada when I flew to get married. (I cancelled that flight, but I guess the airline showed me in the passenger manifest anyway)
 

meyakanor

Hero Member
Jul 26, 2013
519
109
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
App. Filed.......
16-02-2012
Doc's Request.
26-02-2013
AOR Received.
21-03-2012
Med's Request
21-03-2013
Passport Req..
16-04-2013
VISA ISSUED...
29-04-2013
LANDED..........
16-05-2013
I suppose the online record is not the most accurate in the world then, maybe use it as some sort of a guideline, but don't fully rely on it (especially since it apparently still records cancelled flight as an entry to the US, it seems to only go with flight manifest alone rather than CBP record).

@robinhood_1984, did you find at least all the entries to the US accurate (I know you can only see up to 100 records, but did you at least find these entries accurate, and were there any missing entries)? I would assume that the accuracy started to get better after June 28 2013, where they implemented the Entry - Exit Initiative Part II, though apparently still very far from perfect.

@UnsureMay, you can try. I'm sure CBP recorded your entry somehow, but since you are a US citizen, I'm not sure if they would keep track of your exits.
 

robinhood_1984

Hero Member
Jan 22, 2018
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I suppose the online record is not the most accurate in the world then, maybe use it as some sort of a guideline, but don't fully rely on it (especially since it apparently still records cancelled flight as an entry to the US, it seems to only go with flight manifest alone rather than CBP record).

@robinhood_1984, did you find at least all the entries to the US accurate (I know you can only see up to 100 records, but did you at least find these entries accurate, and were there any missing entries)? I would assume that the accuracy started to get better after June 28 2013, where they implemented the Entry - Exit Initiative Part II, though apparently still very far from perfect.
I've just logged back in and to be honest the I94 information is terrible. They only go back for 96 different records which takes me to the 4th of August 2016 but back that far all records are just departures in to Canada. Then after 11 departure only records I finally get my first record of entry in t the US on the 13th of October 2016 and then there's loads more missing. Weird how the US's own website records have 'most' of my Canadian records but very few of their own?! It only starts becoming accurate for US entries in the second half of 2017. Basically for almost a year, the US side only recorded the crossing where I got an I94 put in to my passport, this is done every 90 days but within each 90 day period I have crossed in dozens of times with no record, yet the exits in to Canada seem to be alright or at least mostly there. US records only start being recorded properly in July 2017 so for me the I94 information is pretty useless in its current form.

I'll wait and see what my Canadian records from CBSA look like
 

UnsureMay

Newbie
Feb 20, 2018
4
0
It was mostly accurate for me, although occasionally showed double entries on the same day. And more annoyingly it showed my entry to the US on my return flight to Canada when I flew to get married. (I cancelled that flight, but I guess the airline showed me in the passenger manifest anyway)
Thanks, clearly. I submitted a request again. The last time I tried to get one was two years ago and nothing came about.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Hi everyone. New here and have read through many threads of missing travel records, but in my case, the missing trip is actually crucial to the 1095 day calculation (actually there were other missing entries, but this one really hurts). Both entry and exit were by car across the US Canadian border. This was a relatively short trip back to Canada with friends while being away for almost a year. Since I have been away from Canada, excluding this trip will put me under 1095, and if I don't apply, I stand to lose accumulated days so that I'll need to wait until 2020 to apply, that is provided I stay in Canada full-time during this period. Unfortunately, it looks like I won't be able to use days outside of 5 years in the calculation now.

So I guess my dilemma is, if I apply, how soon will I know that I got rejected due to missing days? If my application gets rejected, will this decision negatively affect future applications?
It appears that at best you are cutting-it-close, very, very close, and have been absent from Canada extensively in the more recent part of the five relevant years.

This is a formula for elevated scrutiny, delays in processing, inconvenient and profoundly intrusive questionnaires, and ultimately hanging the outcome on how well you can document ALL your days in Canada, including these days during this "relatively short trip back to Canada."

The pattern which appears to underlie your situation is one in which almost every prudent person here would recommend you have a margin over the minimum of at least ten days. My sense is that prudence would be a margin counted by extra months, not weeks let alone days.

Ultimately if you can prove your case, and are OK with the hassle, as long as you can prove 1095 days in Canada within the five years prior to applying, you could succeed. But a short margin at the least will RISK, if not outright trigger, non-routine processing, which could mean IRCC puts the full burden of proving your days in Canada on YOU . . . remember, if it comes to this, the big inference most applicants benefit from, the inference that they were physically present in Canada from a date of entry to the next date of exit, may no longer benefit you. You could be required to prove where you were and what you were doing IN CANADA on days in-between a date of entry and the next date of exit.

A long way around the Great Lakes to float the idea that waiting until you are living in Canada again long enough to meet the presence requirements again, such as waiting to 2020 or longer, may be the prudent way to approach this.

By the way, no one gets credit for any days spent in Canada more than five years prior to the date they apply for citizenship. That's just how it works. For everyone.
 

robinhood_1984

Hero Member
Jan 22, 2018
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But a short margin at the least will RISK, if not outright trigger, non-routine processing, which could mean IRCC puts the full burden of proving your days in Canada on YOU . . . remember, if it comes to this, the big inference most applicants benefit from, the inference that they were physically present in Canada from a date of entry to the next date of exit, may no longer benefit you. You could be required to prove where you were and what you were doing IN CANADA on days in-between a date of entry and the next date of exit.
We touched on this with my post the other day with regards proving presence. If someone gets flagged up and they require that applicant to go through QA or RQ etc what sort of proof is expected or accepted?
I see that one thing is a reference from a Canadian citizen with whom you are not related. In my case that would be fine, I could ask any number of people to confirm I am who I say I am and do the job I say I do that will fall in line with my many border crossings as a truck driver. I can provide all of my drivers log books covering every single day I've worked which will back up my border crossings, but would IRCC accept it as evidence or not?

For my entire eligibility period I've lived at one address, which is basically a big house that's a duplex owned by my in-laws, they live in the downstairs bit and I live in the upstairs bit with my wife (their daughter) and our two kids. There is no rental agreement, nothing on paper at all, I just give them a fixed amount each month and everything is included as the house is on one electric meter, we use the same internet etc so I don't have much in the way of utility bills addressed here and what I do have is all paperless and paid automatically every month and when I now look in to it, my cell phone provider for example only has bills available online going back to the later end of 2016, rather than the early part of 2013 as per my eligibility period.

Basically, what proof can I offer to satisfy questions IF my application is selected for such? I think I've kept every car insurance cards I've had since moving to Canada in 2009 which has my address on, obviously my T4's have my address and I've kept all of my payslips from my current company which will go back 4.5 years which have my address on and also back up my log books as I'm paid by the mile, so my payslips will match my logs and its my logs that I'm using to document border crossings etc. Will things like this suffice?

I know you've said that my circumstances might actually prove to be a benefit to me as all of my border crossings establish a pattern of a life in Canada but I still can't help but worry as ultimately it will boil down to who is processing my application and how they personally read my situation and want to be prepared before hand if I get asked for further information, rather than scrambling at the last minute trying to hunt down paperwork and hopeful proofs with a 60 day limit ticking down etc. I want to be prepared for the worst, whilst hoping for the best.
 

dpenabill

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I know you've said that my circumstances might actually prove to be a benefit to me as all of my border crossings establish a pattern of a life in Canada but I still can't help but worry as ultimately it will boil down to who is processing my application and how they personally read my situation and want to be prepared before hand if I get asked for further information, rather than scrambling at the last minute trying to hunt down paperwork and hopeful proofs with a 60 day limit ticking down etc. I want to be prepared for the worst, whilst hoping for the best.
I am assuming your in-laws would provide a letter stating the essential facts: their ownership or rental of the residence, your occupancy with family including dates of occupancy and terms.

Documentation of address history, work history, plus an almost completely accurate travel history, makes for a strong case. If these pieces are in order, the odds of a problem range from low to very low.

This forum tends to way over-emphasize the subjective discretion of the decision-maker processing the application. IRCC processing agents are total stranger bureaucrats. Each individual processing agent handles hundreds if not thousands of applications. If anything, the potentially problematic aspect of this is that they probably do not take the time or make the effort to assess applicants as individual persons, focused more on the data and internal IRCC criteria against which the data is evaluated. Overall, notwithstanding the anomalies reported in forums like this (not all of which are credible), the indications are that in the vast majority of cases IRCC GETS IT, they readily identify most of those who are qualified, and identify reasonable risk-indicators triggering elevated scrutiny for some applicants, including some who are of course qualified but for the most part effectively screening out those who are short, questionable to a degree they might fail to prove qualification, or otherwise not qualified.

The OP here, for example, is at risk for falling into that questionable-to-a-degree-they-might-fail-prove-qualification group. A member of this group may in actual fact have met the minimum physical presence requirement but not be able to prove it beyond a balance of probabilities, and thus there is a risk the application will fail.

If and when an applicant is subject to non-routine processing, that is elevated scrutiny resulting in a questionnaire like the RQ (CIT 0171) or PPQ -QAE (CIT 0205), those questionnaires offer an applicant more than ample opportunity to submit information and documentation which will effectively map a paper trail (well, more a paper/digital trail these days, just that "paper trail" is the language used in some older official decisions) of a life lived in Canada. Processing agents can read these maps. Far better than many forum participants tend to give them credit. And IRCC can usually (not always, but a rather high percentage of the time) sort the credible from the not-so-credible. Again, they get it. Really. Much more so than many whine.

That is, IRCC processing agents have "seen-a-thing-or-two," as the television insurance advertisement starring J.K. Simmons puts it. They have the background and experience to sort these things out BASED ON THE FACTS.

On top of that, IRCC cannot unilaterally deny an application based on the conclusion the applicant has failed to prove sufficient actual presence. If the Citizenship Officer responsible for decision-making regarding the application concludes the applicant fails to prove sufficient actual presence, the Citizenship Officer must then use a File Preparation Template to make a referral to a Citizenship Judge, which template requires the Citizenship Officer to document in detail all the information relevant to assessing the applicant's qualifications with particular attention given to evidence of physical presence or evidence tending to controvert the applicant's account of physical presence. This referral is reviewed by a Citizenship Judge and the applicant is interviewed by the CJ, the applicant getting yet another opportunity to present evidence supporting his or her case, but also the opportunity to address the CJ in person. CJs, at least historically, tend to exercise more subjective discretion, taking into account the applicant's demeanor and other indicators in deciding whether the applicant is credible or lacks credibility. Many (if not most) of the cases appealed in the last two years have been appeals by the Minister in cases where the CJ simply believed the applicant is telling the truth and approved the applicant for a grant of citizenship even though IRCC's more objective assessment identified reasons to conclude the applicant has failed to prove sufficient presence.

Sure, the outcome is not always according to the facts-known-by-god, so to say. But other than profoundly inconvenient imposition of questionnaires and such, and potentially long processing times, the process tends to lean very heavily in favour of qualified applicants. Unfair denial of citizenship appears to be rather rare.

Of course, some believe that if they were physically present 1095 or more days, to be denied citizenship for failing to sufficiently prove presence is not fair. That's a standard of fairness for religious venues not the law. And often more rooted in narcissism than reason.

Bottom-line, the vast, vast majority of qualified applicants have little or no reason to worry about how the process will go. If there is reason to worry, that tends to be rather apparent, such as in the circumstances described by the OP here.

Most of those who run into a problem should know why and should have been able to predict it, if they take off the blinders, escape the narcissistic bubble, and objectively evaluate the facts. This forum has been, historically, rife with tales of woe told by those who fail to step outside their own skin and look at the facts objectively before applying.
 
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dpenabill

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More specifically about this . . .

. . . my circumstances might actually prove to be a benefit to me as all of my border crossings establish a pattern of a life in Canada but . . .
For many, if not most applicants, their travel history is simply more or less consistent with their accounting of presence. For almost all these applicants, IRCC will INFER the applicant was present from a date of entry to the next date of exit. This is so long as there are no red flags in the address and work history, no red flags as to travel history (inconsistent stamps in passports or inconsistency with CBSA travel history), no red flags in the applicant's immigration history (no FOSS report, for example, indicating a CBSA officer had concerns about compliance with the PR Residency Obligation on some occasion within the eligibility period), and no collateral information triggering concerns about the credibility of the applicant's information (for example, no LinkedIn account information which indicates the applicant may have been employed other than as disclosed in the application).

If there is a concern, a red flag of some sort, that INFERENCE might not be applied or at least might be weaker, demanding some direct and objective evidence to show presence during this or that period of time between a date of entry and next date of exit.

For example, some tend to think never leaving Canada makes for a strong case. BUT that leaves a long, long period of time for which IRCC will need to INFER presence. Address history is largely passive, so it helps corroborate presence but does not directly show presence. Work history is perhaps the best thing to show presence, but many applicants have significant gaps in their work history or their work is not necessarily easily documented (the self-employed, such as me for example, do not have an employer IRCC can look up and verify in readily accessible resources, like trade journals or the yellow-pages).


Pattern of travel history tending to indicate living or working abroad:

Such a pattern may be more apparent than some realize. Obviously, such a pattern will likely draw attention and at least some degree of elevated scrutiny. If this pattern is apparent and there are inconsistencies or incongruities in the information provided by the applicant, there is then a much higher risk of elevated scrutiny rising to the level where RQ or similar is imposed and, perhaps, the applicant's information is approached with skepticism (doubt). The OP's situation appears to fall into this group. How much so, which end of the spectrum (merely some degree of elevated scrutiny versus full-blown RQ for example), is hard to guess and will largely depend on very individual facts and circumstances.



Overt discrepancies between applicant's declaration of travel history versus information known to IRCC:

Discrepancies other than minor mistakes will, obviously, dramatically increase the risk of elevated scrutiny, the bigger the discrepancy the bigger the risk of full-blown RQ, full-blown presence case (as in a case going to a Citizenship Judge). Discrepancies in general are problematic and potentially a serious problem.



Pattern of travel history tending to corroborate a life lived in Canada:

Contrary to popular opinion, oft times frequent trips abroad can actually bolster the case. On one hand, the number of days between date of entry and next exit are fewer, for which it should be easier to INFER presence in Canada those days. On the other hand, such patterns can more or less indicate the temporary nature of the trips outside Canada and that dates returning to Canada are consistent with dates returning to one's home.
You probably benefit in this way.

The potential problem with frequent travel (in addition to situations in which the pattern suggests the possibility the applicant is living or working abroad, addressed above) can be accuracy; the more trips to account for, the greater the risk of making mistakes, especially the mistake of omission (omissions are more problematic than merely getting dates off by a day or two).

In contrast, the more complete and accurate you account for your travel dates, the less this is a potentially negative factor. And, at the same time, the more positively it likely corroborates the temporary nature of the trips.
 
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robinhood_1984

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Jan 22, 2018
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Many thanks as always for your extremely in depth responses Depenabill.

All I can do is wait for my original FBI PCC to come back, my complete records from CBSA and fill in those last few gaps that are my own personal day trips over the border in my car and send off the application. I'm confident that my accounting for dates are extremely accurate, if not absolutely accurate and I will of course check them all over again before sending, probably numerous times.
My worry was my somewhat lack of a paper/digital trail, especially with things like utility bills but my in-laws could easily provide a letter confirming my residence here and hopefully the other documentation I have would suffice in the hopefully unlikely event of further questions being asked etc.

I feel that my application is pretty strong, I know I haven't lied or even stretched the truth to qualify but like you say, my opinion of my own credibility is certainly a 'facts known by God' and a hoping to be believed rather than having actual evidence for each and every day I was physically present in Canada, which obviously I don't.

Thanks again for your help.