Have Canadian PR , never lived in Canada

[jakklondon]

I am curious: isn't there such requirement for green card holders in the US to meet to keep their status?

There is. 6 months in a year or so is the maximum you can be out of the US. If you come back a year later, with no special permit (I believe there is a certain kind of permit you have to get, if you will be out for more than 6 months) then you are subject to forfeiture of your PR status. Also, US permanent residents don't have half the rights of Canadian PRs. Canadian PR is entitled to enter Canada, no such right exists for American PR, under certain circumstances your PR card can be tossed away and you can be detained, with no end to it in sight.

But! Very few US PR's stay out of US for long period of time. Some people do that (and I knew at least one), but overall it's extremely unusual for US PR to go out of US and stay somewhere else. Mainly because of economic conditions: if you have a right to work in the US you WILL get a job, and fairly quickly.
Anyone can land a job here in days (weeks at most), IF THEY WANT TO. So, while US has much stricter enforcement of RO laws, the fact is too few are ever in breach. You are not forced to leave the US, so you can have better earning options elsewhere. So, you don't feel like the law is pushing you to act against your existential interests.

 

[jakklondon]

Out of sheer curiosity, do you feel the same way about the US green card RO? The enforcement of US green card RO is actually quite a bit stricter than Canada with green cards being revoked at the border.

You are correct, but I don't feel the same about it, for reasons I described in a post above. And just so you know that I am not biased against Canada or Canadians: I love the country and people there. It has European feel to it. People are relaxed, chill and friendly. I felt extremely safe in Canada, I could walk at 2:00am and make friends with total strangers. I have absolutely no reason to trash Canada, nor do I come from an arrogant position of "We are Americans, we are better than you!". Not at all. I just don't think this RO is a smart policy. It forces a lot of people to stay in Canada who shouldn't be there, and penalizes them for leaving Canada. And if you think about it, those PRs that leave Canada when economy is down are not only doing something that benefits them, it benefits all Canadians, by removing them from already oversaturated job market. Why punish them for doing something that benefits everybody?

 

[CaBeaver]

There is. 6 months in a year or so is the maximum you can be out of the US. If you come back a year later, with no special permit (I believe there is a certain kind of permit you have to get, if you will be out for more than 6 months) then you are subject to forfeiture of your PR status. Also, US permanent residents don't have half the rights of Canadian PRs. Canadian PR is entitled to enter Canada, no such right exists for American PR, under certain circumstances your PR card can be tossed away and you can be detained, with no end to it in sight.

But! Very few US PR's stay out of US for long period of time. Some people do that (and I knew at least one), but overall it's extremely unusual for US PR to go out of US and stay somewhere else. Mainly because of economic conditions: if you have a right to work in the US you WILL get a job, and fairly quickly.
Anyone can land a job here in days (weeks at most), IF THEY WANT TO. So, while US has much stricter enforcement of RO laws, the fact is too few are ever in breach. You are not forced to leave the US, so you can have better earning options elsewhere. So, you don't feel like the law is pushing you to act against your existential interests.

This is the big difference between Canada and the US: the job market. Canada doesn't need all these skilled immigrants. That's why many immigrants compromise to stay and end doing jobs beneath their qualifications. They stay, because most immigrants look for immigration status certainty with open options. In other countries, they would get closed work permits.

 

[jakklondon]

.........Canada doesn't need all these skilled immigrants. That's why many immigrants compromise to stay and end doing jobs beneath their qualifications. ..............

I see this as a potential health problem too. Someone who is forced to work in a fast-food restaurant or to drive UBER, remembering very well that he was a doctor or engineer or other highly regarded professional prior to it, will be severely depressed and demoralized. Even if they received the same or higher amount of compensation, they would be relegated to lower strata of social hierarchy, which will definitely mess up some people beyond repair.
It is not the same experience for unskilled laborer, who sees only improvement in living conditions when he relocates and receives higher wages. As you mentioned, it is the skilled immigrants who are affected under existing circumstances. So, why not let them go while their skills not needed, and let them return when Canada needs to employ them? Let free trade work its magic.

 

[CaBeaver]

I see this as a potential health problem too. Someone who is forced to work in a fast-food restaurant or to drive UBER, remembering very well that he was a doctor or engineer or other highly regarded professional prior to it, will be severely depressed and demoralized. Even if they received the same or higher amount of compensation, they would be relegated to lower strata of social hierarchy, which will definitely mess up some people beyond repair.
It is not the same experience for unskilled laborer, who sees only improvement in living conditions when he relocates and receives higher wages. As you mentioned, it is the skilled immigrants who are affected under existing circumstances. So, why not let them go while their skills not needed, and let them return when Canada needs to employ them? Let free trade work its magic.

I think a better solution is to take advantage of skilled immigrants and build the economy. There is no benefit for Canada from brining skilled immigrants and then let them go.

Canada's economic system is based on socialism, not capitalisms as in the US, and the regulations are very restrictive here, although other EU countries are also socialists, but doing better, like Germany and Sweden. Canada needs to change their regulations and policies, and let go of the what-so-called "Canadian experience" in the market, and create better programs to help immigrants find jobs suitable to their qualifications. In Canada because of the scarcity of jobs in high tech industries, discrimination maybe an issue that needs to be addressed.

Unfortunately, most immigrants come from countries with bad political and economical situations, and most of the time, most immigrants see doing a job beneath their qualifications in Canada is still better than staying at their home countries. As I mentioned before, most can find better jobs elsewhere, but then they won't have guaranteed status, and they would live in uncertainty. Immigrants think of their children when they compromise. They may leave after they get their citizenship, because they can stay outside Canada as long as they want.

If Canada keeps on the same policies and regulations, and focuses on natural resources and few industries for its economy, they should consider brining other non highly skilled immigrants like truck drivers, burger flippers, bartenders, painters, supermarket workers ... etc.

 

[scylla]

You are correct, but I don't feel the same about it, for reasons I described in a post above. And just so you know that I am not biased against Canada or Canadians: I love the country and people there. It has European feel to it. People are relaxed, chill and friendly. I felt extremely safe in Canada, I could walk at 2:00am and make friends with total strangers. I have absolutely no reason to trash Canada, nor do I come from an arrogant position of "We are Americans, we are better than you!". Not at all. I just don't think this RO is a smart policy. It forces a lot of people to stay in Canada who shouldn't be there, and penalizes them for leaving Canada. And if you think about it, those PRs that leave Canada when economy is down are not only doing something that benefits them, it benefits all Canadians, by removing them from already oversaturated job market. Why punish them for doing something that benefits everybody?

I think you have a rose coloured view of the green card residency obligation. And fair enough, it doesn't impact you as a US citizen. No different than the PR card RO for Canada doesn't impact me. We don't fully appreciate the challenges faced by those impacted in the countries where we hold citizenship.

I have a number of close friends who are in the US with green card status (also a couple of staff members). I would put them into three fairly equally sized groups as it relates to their view of the green card RO. First group is those who are indifferent / not impacted at all / are fine with it. Second group find it inconvenient and it's required personal sacrifice but nothing that significant. They complain about it a bit and feel the rules are unfair but that's about it. Third group is the angry group who resent the US but feel completely trapped. These are individuals who've had to make very significant personal and/or professional sacrifices to maintain green card status. So they are definitely out there. They may just not be in your friend circle.

 

[jaganv117]

I see this as a potential health problem too. Someone who is forced to work in a fast-food restaurant or to drive UBER, remembering very well that he was a doctor or engineer or other highly regarded professional prior to it, will be severely depressed and demoralized. Even if they received the same or higher amount of compensation, they would be relegated to lower strata of social hierarchy, which will definitely mess up some people beyond repair.

That's an absolutely anecdotal statement. Even doctors coming into USA or UK for that matter have to undergo the same route as they would in Canada to get their physician license. And it would be similar for most engineering professions except maybe IT. And as previously posted by @CaBeaver, most people coming in are from far worse conditions.

It is not the same experience for unskilled laborer, who sees only improvement in living conditions when he relocates and receives higher wages. As you mentioned, it is the skilled immigrants who are affected under existing circumstances. So, why not let them go while their skills not needed, and let them return when Canada needs to employ them? Let free trade work its magic.

Using your example of doctors, irrespective of when they come in, they do need to get their training in Canada. So, I don't understand what you mean when you say, let them not comeback when there are opportunities. Also, Canada doesn't "need" to employ them. The opportunity of PR is to provide residency rather than a guaranteed job.

Just reframing your question from the perspective of the applicant rather than the Govt, if the person is not planning on residing then and now and planning on later, why not they apply for residency when they have an intention to reside and when they feel there are opportunities?.

 

[jakklondon]

I think a better solution is to take advantage of skilled immigrants and build the economy. There is no benefit for Canada from brining skilled immigrants and then let them go.

Canada's economic system is based on socialism, not capitalisms as in the US, and the regulations are very restrictive here, although other EU countries are also socialists, but doing better, like Germany and Sweden. Canada needs to change their regulations and policies, and let go of the what-so-called "Canadian experience" in the market, and create better programs to help immigrants find jobs suitable to their qualifications. In Canada because of the scarcity of jobs in high tech industries, discrimination maybe an issue that needs to be addressed.

Unfortunately, most immigrants come from countries with bad political and economical situations, and most of the time, most immigrants see doing a job beneath their qualifications in Canada is still better than staying at their home countries. As I mentioned before, most can find better jobs elsewhere, but then they won't have guaranteed status, and they would live in uncertainty. Immigrants think of their children when they compromise. They may leave after they get their citizenship, because they can stay outside Canada as long as they want.

If Canada keeps on the same policies and regulations, and focuses on natural resources and few industries for its economy, they should consider brining other non highly skilled immigrants like truck drivers, burger flippers, bartenders, painters, supermarket workers ... etc.

Couldn't agree more. If skilled immigrants are needed - bring them. If they are not - reduce the number of admissions or eliminate the category, until such time when they are needed in Canada. If burger flippers and Uber drivers is what Canada needs - then open a program for unskilled labor. No need to bring doctors and engineers to drive Uber in Canada.

 

[jakklondon]

I think you have a rose coloured view of the green card residency obligation. And fair enough, it doesn't impact you as a US citizen. No different than the PR card RO for Canada doesn't impact me. We don't fully appreciate the challenges faced by those impacted in the countries where we hold citizenship.

I have a number of close friends who are in the US with green card status (also a couple of staff members). I would put them into three fairly equally sized groups as it relates to their view of the green card RO. First group is those who are indifferent / not impacted at all / are fine with it. Second group find it inconvenient and it's required personal sacrifice but nothing that significant. They complain about it a bit and feel the rules are unfair but that's about it. Third group is the angry group who resent the US but feel completely trapped. These are individuals who've had to make very significant personal and/or professional sacrifices to maintain green card status. So they are definitely out there. They may just not be in your friend circle.

Not at all. I generally have very critical view of things in the US and I don't think our country is headed in the right direction. But, first of all, this discussion is not about comparing Canada to US. There are many countries thousands of times worse than US and Canada, that would not justify a bad policy in either one. I think if Canadian policy concerning PR is deserving criticism, finding flaws in US policy would not in any way make it right.

But to be fair, I must say RO violation is not a wide spread issue here, you won't hear about it in forums, newspapers, Congressional hearings and etc. Because that particular problem does not resonate here. And the reason is - our economy provides better opportunities to US PR holders than they can have anywhere else. They might have pretty stressful lives, but overall, they won't earn more and get better suited job for themselves outside of the IS. So, there is no need to threaten PRs with loss of status and to force them stay here - very few leave US for more than a week or two in a year, and most don't leave for a day in decades.

As to groups you mention, I know we have a serious problem with Indian immigrants. US does not entirely ban immigration from India, but it has certain limit on number of people of Indian origin who can obtain PR here, As a result, many of them toil in abusive, terrible working conditions holding nonimmigrant visas (H1B), and stay in that status for a decade or more while waiting for their turn to get a PR status. I never supported this policy. I think no country should put anyone under such strains. If US is not willing to take more than X number of nationals from any given country, then it should not issue more than that number of H1B visas , so it can permanently accommodate anyone holds H1B status and who wishes to stay here permanently. Although H visas are dual intentional and not everyone on H visa intends to stay here as a PR, but still, bringing a lot of H visa holders from India while allowing only a fraction of them to get PR status creates those conditions where people make enormous sacrifices for very long period of time and feel extremely resentful at the end. As I said above, I never supported such policies. But I don't know how criticizing certain things or policies related to US immigration policies can justify and make right the wrong things done in Canada.

 

[CaBeaver]

Couldn't agree more. If skilled immigrants are needed - bring them. If they are not - reduce the number of admissions or eliminate the category, until such time when they are needed in Canada. If burger flippers and Uber drivers is what Canada needs - then open a program for unskilled labor. No need to bring doctors and engineers to drive Uber in Canada.

I think this is intentional. To keep most immigrants in Canadian society educated because they are presumably civil and open to liberal principles that are rooted in science, given they come from different cultural, religious, and political backgrounds, even if they cannot find a decent job, hoping they will stay because of the lifestyle and services. I doubt Canada will start bringing uneducated immigrants from 3rd world countries to fill unskilled labor.

 

[SecularFirst]

I find this RO extremely restrictive for professionals, especially if someone want to go abroad for further education or business. Few years ago, I had to leave Canada for education while on PR. I returned early last year after 3.5 years absence, was sent to secondary but was allowed in without any further reporting. But now I can’t leave and return to Canada for business or any other purposes. I actually have no plans to leave but there were a couple instances where I had to forgo a chance to attend a world class continuing education seminar in US early this year, which could have improved my skills and have had helped me expanding my career further here in Canada. I am quite well settled in Canada, earning good, in top tax bracket, bought a house but still feel like RO put a restriction, although temporarily though. I cant wait to finish 3 years in Canada and applying for citizenship, so I can leave and pursue career in US.
I am originally from India and didn’t want to be stuck in eternal Green card wait. I have no regrets about moving to Canada, infact I got education in Canada before going out. I just feel like its a little unfair to indirectly force PRs to complete RO even if they are not doing anything productive and want to go out temporarily for better career prospects.

 

[RocketCity]

But to be fair, I must say RO violation is not a wide spread issue here, you won't hear about it in forums, newspapers, Congressional hearings and etc. Because that particular problem does not resonate here. And the reason is - our economy provides better opportunities to US PR holders than they can have anywhere else. They might have pretty stressful lives, but overall, they won't earn more and get better suited job for themselves outside of the IS. So, there is no need to threaten PRs with loss of status and to force them stay here - very few leave US for more than a week or two in a year, and most don't leave for a day in decades.

While it is true that the US offers better economic opportunities, comparing green card holders and Canadian PRs is not quite comparing apples to apples. Unlike Canada, you cannot self-sponsor (for the most part) for an employment-based green card. There is no points system. You have to have an employer willing to sponsor you. Because of this, the US already has immigrants that are more well suited to adjust to American life. They already have a job. There is no stepping into the great unknown where you don't know where your next paycheck is coming from. Also, because they already have American experience, a green card holder is in a better position to find a new job if he ever finds himself unemployed. On the other hand, Canadian PRs are pretty much dropped off in Canada and start from nothing. Anecdotally, I know of a Pakistani housewife who was a doctor in her home country. She came to the US by being sponsored by a family member. She remains a housewife to this day. I feel like family-sponsored GC holders are a better comparison to Canadian PRs as both sets of people come to their new country starting from scratch.

 

[jakklondon]

I think this is intentional. To keep most immigrants in Canadian society educated because they are presumably civil and open to liberal principles that are rooted in science, given they come from different cultural, religious, and political backgrounds, even if they cannot find a decent job, hoping they will stay because of the lifestyle and services. I doubt Canada will start bringing uneducated immigrants from 3rd world countries to fill unskilled labor.

I don't know if intention is so noble and high, as to bring enlightened people with scientific mindset. I suspect the real intent is to drive down wages for all, skilled and unskilled, while oversaturating labor market with hundreds of thousands of people competing for very scare jobs. But, of course, I might be wrong.

In any event, the policy that has negative outcome should be halted. If there are not enough jobs to keep PRs in Canada, may be it's time to reduce the rate of migration. May be Canada should impose temporary moratorium and stop accepting more PRs until such time when they are needed.

 

[jakklondon]

While it is true that the US offers better economic opportunities, comparing green card holders and Canadian PRs is not quite comparing apples to apples. Unlike Canada, you cannot self-sponsor (for the most part) for an employment-based green card. There is no points system. You have to have an employer willing to sponsor you. Because of this, the US already has immigrants that are more well suited to adjust to American life. They already have a job. There is no stepping into the great unknown where you don't know where your next paycheck is coming from. Also, because they already have American experience, a green card holder is in a better position to find a new job if he ever finds himself unemployed. On the other hand, Canadian PRs are pretty much dropped off in Canada and start from nothing. Anecdotally, I know of a Pakistani housewife who was a doctor in her home country. She came to the US by being sponsored by a family member. She remains a housewife to this day. I feel like family-sponsored GC holders are a better comparison to Canadian PRs as both sets of people come to their new country starting from scratch.

I really didn't intend my post to serve as an advertisement of US green card, or to say "US green card is better than Canadian". I see issue with strict RO enforcement in Canada that goes against natural desire of individuals to find gainful employment. No such issue in the US exists.

I was also curious how the policy currently enforced.

 

[SecularFirst]

I do feel like immigration in Canada is more lenient toward professionals when it comes to RO enforcement. I dont know even a single case where they deported anyone who went out for education or professional career. I could be wrong. I feel like they are more strict toward elderly PRs who are in breach if RO as they have less chance to be able to support themselves in Canada and will be on social assistance. I dont know why someone who spent 10-20 years working in Canada on PR status and left for 3-4 years would be force to leave Canada on return while a citizen living and doing nothing here can go out for any amount of time. How are the snowbirds different in this sense?