Have Canadian PR , never lived in Canada

[jakklondon]

To everyone other than the OP: sorry. This will be something of a rant, from the soapbox one might say. Please skip.

Otherwise it appears the OP will not be offended since the OP has definitively declared they "couldn't care less about any pontification." They might not want to hear it, but of course what gets posted here in response to queries is not the OP's choice. So, in light of the OP's other rather gratuitous comments, most notably insinuations about Canadian bureaucrats engaging in "vigilantism," with a sigh . . .



My guess, just a guess, you will not like my response. Trolling tends to get me emotional. The soapbox beckons. So let me say upfront, if I may be allowed, thank you for your understanding.

And if this response does not drip with Canadian-politeness, my excuse is that I am an immigrant here and one with deep roots in my old country, with some deeply entrenched and hard-to-shake rather unpleasant habits and attitudes, or perhaps, as some might say, handicapped, the product of a bad start in a bad place.

Thing is, you could have answered the question yourself, as best you could, however you might, if you did not want answers you do not want to see or hear. I will not accuse you of being a fool, you seem to very well know what you are doing, but I will express some suspicion that you are at the least disingenuous. You posted, in an open forum on the internet, rather obviously aware that your query was likely to invite some responses you do not want to see or hear. And, moreover, you went to some pain to derisively describe those whose responses you did not want to see, before they so much as had a chance to respond, painting them, inter alia, as "'holier than though' types," and did this in your very first post here (at least while using a mutation of the White Fang author's name).

The more obvious targets of your derision are easily identified. It's true they rather often intrude with precepts rooted in the-rules-are-the-rules and should be enforced postures, except their version of what the rules are tends to be more strict than the actual rules, and quite a lot more strict than actual practice in how the rules are applied and enforced. I tend to disagree with them often. Sure, one might suspect, some are motivated by moralizing. But there is no need to go there. Usually. Targeting motives is usually a distraction, and ad hominem. Addressing how things actually work, as best we can discern, usually works, or at least is the best we can do.

But sometimes the motive is the message.

So, let's be clear, your "P.S." demand, your lecture to forum participants about how they can or cannot respond, tells the tale well enough. Never mind the internal contradictions in what you claim to be asking. After all, anecdotal experiences can only reflect what sometimes happens and without context or reliable statistics, will not ordinarily let alone necessarily reflect or indicate what is common, let alone what is the norm, let alone "a true state of affairs." Never mind the blatant fishing expedition, raising a question about just what it is you are fishing for, since you so explicitly make it clear you really have no reason to be interested in living in Canada, or even much if any interest in visiting Canada.

Forgive me if I am wrong apprehending your "curiosity" to be a pretense, and thank you for your understanding.

In that case, I will offer a summary of what you could have easily learned from just perusing a few threads in this forum about this subject.

Port-of-Entry Examination of PRs as to Residency Obligation Compliance, for PRs Returning to Canada After an Absence of Three Plus Years:

Most PRs are NOT questioned much if at all about RO compliance upon arrival at a PoE (I never was, not in many dozens of crossings while I was a PR).

While the query asked about coming here after being gone five years, which would typically mean the PR is arriving at the PoE without a valid PR card, if the absence has been for more than three years, even if the PR presents a valid PR card it is more or less obvious there is a RO compliance question, since it is impossible to meet the RO (without some exception applying) if the PR was last in Canada more than three years ago.

So, at the PIL (Primary Inspection Line) the screening official will ordinarily, but not always, recognize there is, potentially, a RO compliance issue if a PR applying for entry into Canada (such application is made by just showing up at the PIL) has either been outside Canada more than three years or does not present a currently valid PR card. It is not the PIL officer's job to conduct further screening, but rather to refer the traveler to Immigration Secondary. If the referral to Secondary is specifically about RO compliance questions, obviously that results in more extensive questioning about RO compliance.

There are other reasons why a PR might be referred to Immigration Secondary (in contrast to a referral to Secondary for merely customs screening) . But if there is such a referral, there is a significant risk that will include questions about RO compliance; might even be that with any referral to Immigration Secondary, it is likely there will be at least some questions aimed at verifying RO compliance.

Other factors also may trigger a referral to Secondary by the PIL officer for questioning about RO compliance. Some PRs must be referred to Secondary (such as a PR carrying a one-year PR card).

In contrast, anecdotal reports suggest that on more than a few occasions a PR who is in breach of the RO, including some way in breach, are just waived into Canada by the PIL officer. This appears to be about PRs carrying a visa-exempt passport, and perhaps even more so those presenting a U.S. passport, and mostly PRs who do not say anything to the PIL officer about being a Canadian PR. More than a few PRs outside Canada long in breach of the RO, and without a PR card, will actually attempt a return to Canada this way, hoping to be waived through. If they succeed, they can FIX their RO problem by staying for two years, without leaving, before applying for a new PR card. Not so easily done as it might sound. But more than a few try.

So the PIL is the biggest fork in the path determining whether a PR faces a more or less strict RO compliance examination upon returning to Canada. If the PIL officer waives the PR through, no RO compliance examination, no 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility for a breach of the RO.

Most indications are that this is less and less likely going forward. Electronic scanning of passport by PIL will almost always (not always but almost) identify the traveler to be a Canadian PR.

Once a PR is referred to Secondary and is questioned about RO compliance, the PR who is for sure in breach, and by a lot, and who is not making a strong H&C case for keeping PR status, the odds of being issued the 44(1) Report are probably VERY HIGH.

A traveler with a U.S. passport, or even one carrying another visa-exempt passport, might be waived through if the examining officer is satisfied the individual is just visiting, not intending to stay. Could be because there is no reason to do all the paperwork since the traveler will be allowed into Canada anyway (either after renouncing PR status and allowed in as a visitor, or allowed in as a PR "under enforcement" subject to the right to appeal) and will soon be leaving . . . let some other officer do the paperwork, next time. This seems to have been common in the not-so-distant past but as the border screening process has gotten more formal over the years, it seems very likely even this will be less and less common going forward.

Looks like a diatribe that I have no time or desire to read and respond to.

 

[jakklondon]

I came in a little more than 2 years ago, and recently, a few of my friends came in via land border and airports. No problem at all.

Bedema, can you elaborate on it? Which land crossing point and airports they entered Canada through? What were their citizenships? What do they look like? Hip, "professional", average? European/white or dark skinned? If latter, are they African, Asian or Middle Eastern? I am curious if there is a pattern to how border guards select people for secondary inspection. Is it purely random and decided by luck or there is certain nefarious pattern to it ? It would be interesting to discover that different groups of people have different experiences at the border (I don't suggest they do, I am just curious to learn if it is so), and therefore have such diversion of opinions as to what happens to RO violators at the border.

 

[jakklondon]

Why don’t you just start the process of renouncing your PR?
that way you will be all in the clear if you ever want to visit Canada.
That way you don’t have to worry about officers moods and what ifs

Why should I? I am a lazy person. The only thing I do is work (to pay my bills). I spend the rest of my time leisurely. The last thing I want to do is fill out the forms and deal with humongous bureaucracy, such as immigration authorities of another country. I have no intention to visit Canada as I post it here.

 

[jakklondon]

The longer you remain out of Canada the higher the chance of being reported. Lack of time already spent in Canada and reason you haven’t met RO would also be a factor and a factor to retain your PR if you appealed. Better job opportunities would not be an accepted reason for not meeting your RO. There is some luck involved. Some CBSA agents don’t enjoy doing the paperwork.

Thank you canuck78. I appreciate your input. I know about appeal, RO laws and understand general mindset that is behind the RO regulations and requirements to overcome the removal order in appeal. I am more interested in how strictly it's actually enforced. Like, out of 100 PR holders who return to Canada after 10 years of absence, how many are sent to secondary and reported for RO violation? Is it 95? 80? 60? 40? 20? Another question, is there a nefarious pattern to it ,do they pick people by their looks, or is it truly random?

Obviously, I will not get specific, statistically reliable numbers (like how many percent get reported), I bring up the numbers to give you an idea of what I am curious about. And I think the more people respond and share their experiences, they better I can estimate the odds.

If you manage to enter unreported you may also run into other obstacles like not being able to work (apparently now you need to show a valid PR card to reactivate your SIN# which would be dormant), access healthcare, sponsor anyone for 2-3 years until you are back in compliance with your PR card, etc.

Is it legal (I am asking about a requirement to show green card to activate dormant SIN)? Or is it some kind of vigilante law enforcement by agency in charge of issuing of SIN? Isn't someone in possession of landing papers a legal permanent resident of Canada, regardless of PR card? Your laws allow such discrimination, once PR is inside Canada (not reported by border agent, thus allowed to come and stay in Canada)? It sounds so convoluted.

I totally get the part about sponsorship. The only way you can sponsor someone is if you petition immigration authorities, Once you do, they will discover that you are in breach of RO and will initiate removal proceedings. It's not a chance encounter, it's just a part of vetting an application. I never understand people who do that and then complain that they are being stripped of residency. Like, what were they thinking?

 

[bedema]

After reading others' comments on re-entering canada and life after re-entering, here are my OWN experience that I would like to share. First, I have a visa exempted passport, therefore, all I need is just a plane ticket going to seattle and a friend picking me up and driving me back. On crossing the Canadian border, yes, as a PR, you should declare your status. But as a visitor/tourist, I simply used my passport and got back in. About declaring my PR status, I have no idea that I still had my PR since it was 20+ years ago and I came in visit as a tourist along with my family. Once I crossed the border, I found out that my PR status is still valid, therefore, I decided to stay for 2 yrs and fulfill the RO. (Hey, I did not break any law up to this point yet! Don't give me those moral lessons.) During the time, I applied for MSP, re-activited my SIN card, got my driver license, went to school while paying local fee, actually everything that a normal Canadian can have, besides voting. So, don't believe others' comments on how you cannot do this and that, I did it ALL.

 

[jakklondon]

After reading others' comments on re-entering canada and life after re-entering, here are my OWN experience that I would like to share. First, I have a visa exempted passport, therefore, all I need is just a plane ticket going to seattle and a friend picking me up and driving me back. On crossing the Canadian border, yes, as a PR, you should declare your status. But as a visitor/tourist, I simply used my passport and got back in. About declaring my PR status, I have no idea that I still had my PR since it was 20+ years ago and I came in visit as a tourist along with my family. Once I crossed the border, I found out that my PR status is still valid, therefore, I decided to stay for 2 yrs and fulfill the RO. (Hey, I did not break any law up to this point yet! Don't give me those moral lessons.) During the time, I applied for MSP, re-activited my SIN card, got my driver license, went to school while paying local fee, actually everything that a normal Canadian can have, besides voting. So, don't believe others' comments on how you cannot do this and that, I did it ALL.

Good to hear your story. Btw, it's amazing county, very nice people and a lot happier than Americans. But jobs are scarce. I think it's a great place to be if you possess certain skills that are in demand and in shortage in Canada (I don't know what they are, but I am sure there are at least some fields that pay well and can't get enough workers). It may also be beneficial if you have an extended family and connections there who are well established and can help you settle in. It's really refreshing to hear that you were able to get your SIN reactivated and got your DL. If I was single and in my late teens or early 20's, I would probably dive in, just for the thrill of it, and if nothing else worked would at very least get into a good university program and then return to States or go to EU. Canada may also work well for you if you are retired or close to it and have substantial savings to live off of. Wish you best of luck there!

 

[armoured]

On crossing the Canadian border, yes, as a PR, you should declare your status. But as a visitor/tourist, I simply used my passport and got back in. About declaring my PR status, I have no idea that I still had my PR since it was 20+ years ago and I came in visit as a tourist along with my family. Once I crossed the border, I found out that my PR status is still valid, therefore, I decided to stay for 2 yrs and fulfill the RO.

Just a simple warning to others about this - the key thing to note about your case is that you had been out of Canada well more than a decade, i.e. going back to (it sounds like) before even the year 2000. (Note the pre-9/11 timing BTW - yep, the border tightening started happening after)

The point being - government systems have improved quite a lot and the availability of information to border officers is much better than it used to be. This "show up at the border and not mention being a PR" (and/or not have the border officers find out) is just increasingly unlikely.

And yep, some cases like yours will occur and presumably some very old files they might never get around to getting into the databases - or maybe they will someday. Sometimes the border officers might just not look carefully or have other priorities that day or fat finger typo stuff.

But overall - anyone planning or relying on it working out like your case - well, just not something to rely on.

(The controls for flights into Canada also more strict as effectively a lot of the vetting and database checks happening prior to casting up at a border - e.g. even visa waiver passport holders have to apply for the ETA, at which point automated checks)

 

[jakklondon]

@bedema , I forgot to ask: do you have US passport or you went there with other visa-exempt passport? Apparently, you can fly with US passport and without PR card into Canada, but would need a PR card to board a plane if you were UK national or other. So, it would make sense (if you weren't American) to fly to a border town in US and then enter Canada by land port.

P.S. This whole RO is some silly nonsense, IMHO. Only the large, transnational corporations benefit from it, by forcing millions of PRs to stay in Canada, all in desperate search of low paying jobs, paying astronomical fees for rent/housing, getting depressed , unhappy, bringing down wages of other Canadians in oversaturated labor market. What a waste. Imagine how many unhappy and miserable PRs could leave Canada for a decade or more while its economy is in deep crisis, thus improving their own living standards and , along the way, the wages of fellow Canadians. They could return to Canada only when Canadian economy really needed them. Free market forces rather than brainless bureaucrats would regulate and determine the flow of PRs in and out of Canada, and this would be a brilliant way to make everyone happy! But with greedy corporate interests in control of policy making , it's likely that they will push for more aggressive RO enforcement in Canada.

 

[CaBeaver]

....

P.S. This whole RO is some silly nonsense, IMHO. Only the large, transnational corporations benefit from it, by forcing millions of PRs to stay in Canada, all in desperate search of low paying jobs, paying astronomical fees for rent/housing, getting depressed , unhappy, bringing down wages of other Canadians in oversaturated labor market. What a waste. Imagine how many unhappy and miserable PRs could leave Canada for a decade or more while its economy is in deep crisis, thus improving their own living standards and , along the way, the wages of fellow Canadians. They could return to Canada only when Canadian economy really needed them. Free market forces rather than brainless bureaucrats would regulate and determine the flow of PRs in and out of Canada, and this would be a brilliant way to make everyone happy! But with greedy corporate interests in control of policy making , it's likely that they will push for more aggressive RO enforcement in Canada.

I am curious: isn't there such requirement for green card holders in the US to meet to keep their status?

 

[scylla]

P.S. This whole RO is some silly nonsense, IMHO. Only the large, transnational corporations benefit from it, by forcing millions of PRs to stay in Canada, all in desperate search of low paying jobs, paying astronomical fees for rent/housing, getting depressed , unhappy, bringing down wages of other Canadians in oversaturated labor market. What a waste. Imagine how many unhappy and miserable PRs could leave Canada for a decade or more while its economy is in deep crisis, thus improving their own living standards and , along the way, the wages of fellow Canadians. They could return to Canada only when Canadian economy really needed them. Free market forces rather than brainless bureaucrats would regulate and determine the flow of PRs in and out of Canada, and this would be a brilliant way to make everyone happy! But with greedy corporate interests in control of policy making , it's likely that they will push for more aggressive RO enforcement in Canada.

Out of sheer curiosity, do you feel the same way about the US green card RO? The enforcement of US green card RO is actually quite a bit stricter than Canada with green cards being revoked at the border.

 

[scylla]

I am curious: isn't there such requirement for green card holders in the US to meet to keep their status?

Yes, there is. It's actually much stricter.

 

[RocketCity]

Another data point for you:

Border crossing: Peace Bridge (Niagara Falls)
Date: 12/25/2018

By this time, I had already gotten my US green card. I landed in May 2015 and had only spent 3 weeks in Canada on two separate trips. I still had an unexpired Candian PR card so I presented it to the border agent. CBSA agent was pretty nice considering he had to work on Christmas Day. He asked me what the purpose of my trip was. Told him, I was going to see Niagara Falls and Toronto as a tourist. He asked me if I was aware of the residency obligation requirements as a Canadian permanent resident (he probably saw that I was already in breach but was being lenient). I said, "yeah, but I was unlikely going to ever move to Canada because my cold-weather-hating wife would never agree to it". We lived in the southeast United States at the time, so temperatures rarely get really cold. He laughed and waved me through without reporting me. Maybe it was due to it being Christmas Day, and there weren't a lot of CBSA agents working that day. Heck, they waived the border crossing fee too.

Fast forward now, and my wife is more open (though still resistant) to moving to Canada as we moved to the northwestern US, and she is more tolerant of the cold weather. The problem now is I don't have an unexpired Canadian PR card and my RO breach is a lot bigger than 6 months. I am close to being eligible to become a US citizen, so I'm not sure how much a US passport will help future border interactions (probably not in theory but who knows in practice).


Side question: For those who work in Canada on a CUSMA Professionals Work Permit, do you:
a) Have access to each province's health insurance plan?
b1) Have the ability to bring your dependents?
b2) If you can bring dependents, do they have access to provincial health care?

 

[CaBeaver]

Yes, there is. It's actually much stricter.

I couldn't find [by a quick search] information how long one must stay in the US to renew their green card status. I only found it's 10-year card, compared to the 5-year card in Canada, and the cost is ~10x higher than in Canada.

 

[scylla]

I couldn't find [by a quick search] information how long one must stay in the US to renew their green card status. I only found it's 10-year card, compared to the 5-year card in Canada, and the cost is ~10x higher than in Canada.

The residency requirement for a US green card basically requires you to be living in the US and make the US your primary home. If you are outside of the US for more than a year (without a returning resident visa), then you've lost your green card status and your green card is revoked at the border the next time you enter. You also can't simply maintain your green card RO by returning for a few days or a few weeks each year. You have to make the US your primary country of residency.

The US does have something called a returning resident visa that allows you to leave for up to 2 years without losing your US green card. You have to apply in advance and be approved with processing taking around 3 months (at least it did pre-COVID) and you must be in the US to do that. This means that a soft landing and then immediately leaving for a few years that's possible in Canada is in no way feasible in the US. Certainly being out of the country for 3+ years straight, being able to return and still keep your green card status is not possible in the US like it is in Canada.

 

[jddd]

After reading others' comments on re-entering canada and life after re-entering, here are my OWN experience that I would like to share. First, I have a visa exempted passport, therefore, all I need is just a plane ticket going to seattle and a friend picking me up and driving me back. On crossing the Canadian border, yes, as a PR, you should declare your status. But as a visitor/tourist, I simply used my passport and got back in. About declaring my PR status, I have no idea that I still had my PR since it was 20+ years ago and I came in visit as a tourist along with my family. Once I crossed the border, I found out that my PR status is still valid, therefore, I decided to stay for 2 yrs and fulfill the RO. (Hey, I did not break any law up to this point yet! Don't give me those moral lessons.) During the time, I applied for MSP, re-activited my SIN card, got my driver license, went to school while paying local fee, actually everything that a normal Canadian can have, besides voting. So, don't believe others' comments on how you cannot do this and that, I did it ALL.

Hi. Really interested to get some help in how to apply for MSP without a PR card. The situation for my friend is not the same, she is landing as a PR for the first time, but she was told she needs to have a PR card before she can apply for MSP or even a BCID. Thanks in advance.