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hardness and cruelty of some CIC offciers

alaabebe

Full Member
Apr 19, 2016
42
0
We have applied to renew our permanent residences and it took the CIC almost two years from early 2012 till early 2014 to bring me for intensive interview , had request and I had supplied all supporting
documentation to prove our residence , finally we got a positive determination of our residence obligation .

one month later we all received request from CIC to appear for our citizenship tests, which we all did
me first
my second elder son
my older son
my wife
myself and my wife just met with a very nice cheerful officer , we spent few minutes and left the place
two weeks later we received a request to appear for citizenship OATH
while my wife and my second elder son , fall into a frown agressive suspicious officer , she spent an hour interrogating them and finally
received a questionnaire which have been submitted with all supporting documentations
for the period from May 2010 till may 2014.
this would definitely and surly cover more than three years required to fulfill the citizenship requirements
one year later , we received a letter signed by the CIC manager , to clarify two points of misrepresentation in their applications
two separate letters in the same time .
which we answered in full and also expressing our wellness to voluntarily coming for a hearing as required to clarify all points needed

one week later, we received a letter requesting them to come for a hearing before a citizenship Judge
both at the same day one after the other , from 09:00 AM and from 09:30 AM my second elder son
they went and unfortunately , no judge was there at this day! they waited and the guard went inside and check for some one to see them
all of the sudden the same lady , CIC officer , came and fall into them again
she met with them carrying a big file in her hand , whereas she started interrogation them again and again for the period from 2007 till 2010 which was outside the Citizenship
period required for the citizenship obligation
what is this ? what could be that ?! a deliberate instance to hand these two guys ?
my wife and son kept telling here , we have replied your points as came into the letters and we are supposed to see a judge
she said based on my recommendation you would see or not ? what an cruelty ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
she made every thing possible to put her under pressure and she was happily saying your son must be intense now and getting nervous
what is this abuse , zest of torturing innocent people?
two days letters, we received a personal registered mail with a letter signed by her …..her assessment is refusal of their citizenship application
and they are suspended to submit any application before five years!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what is this …..Injustice …..hardness … ….in-humanitarian decision
 

alaabebe

Full Member
Apr 19, 2016
42
0
your thoughtful inputs and advices shall be highly appreciated
if any one you know have ever fallen in similar situations please let us know

thanks
ala'a
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
93,311
20,712
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
It sounds to me like CIC belives you misrepresented some information in your application for the 2007 to 2010 period. This is why you have been banned from reapplying for 5 years.

When did you apply for citizenship? Which month and year?
 

Alurra71

VIP Member
Oct 5, 2012
3,237
309
Ontario
Visa Office......
Vegreville
App. Filed.......
07-12-2012
AOR Received.
21-01-2013
Interview........
waived
VISA ISSUED...
28-11-2013
LANDED..........
19-12-2013
Something in the applications triggered the officer to think there is a form of misrepresentation. Remember, they can examine the time period quite a while back as necessary to even ensure that you were eligible to apply for citizenship at the time the application was signed. It seems as though your files go back quite some time if the officer was looking all the way back to 2007.
 

fishbone

Star Member
Mar 15, 2015
91
2
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
That's quite interesting - I was under the impression that the only period that could be under review is the 4 year time frame prior to the signing of the application.

alaabee - Did the letter provide a reason for refusal? I wasn't able to tell by your original comment but did your wife and son get to see the judge?
 

ZingyDNA

Champion Member
Aug 12, 2013
1,252
185
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
NOC Code......
2111
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-06-2013
AOR Received.
28-08-2013
IELTS Request
Sent with Application
Med's Request
21-02-2014 (principal applicant)
Med's Done....
07-03-2014 (both, upfront for spouse)
Passport Req..
10-04-2014
VISA ISSUED...
22-04-2014
LANDED..........
13-06-2014
Well, if they suspect misrepresentation, they can trace back more than that, right?

fishbone said:
That's quite interesting - I was under the impression that the only period that could be under review is the 4 year time frame prior to the signing of the application.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
93,311
20,712
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
I don't think we have the full story on dates. My guess is that they applied for citizenship well before 2014 and then their citizenship applications were held up while PR was renewed. I don't believe the four year period before they applied for citizenship is May 2010 to May 2014. I think the four year period is actually quite a bit earlier - so the examination of 2007 to 2010 isn't that odd.
 

heeradeepak

Hero Member
Jun 1, 2014
398
11
scylla said:
I don't think we have the full story on dates. My guess is that they applied for citizenship well before 2014 and then their citizenship applications were held up while PR was renewed. I don't believe the four year period before they applied for citizenship is May 2010 to May 2014. I think the four year period is actually quite a bit earlier - so the examination of 2007 to 2010 isn't that odd.
Scylla since you peoples have much experience i want ask a question that a person after receiving of RQ voluntarily withdraw the application and CIC approved that request of withdrawal. What will happened when he will reapply, CIC will again check that old file or they will consider only new application with new proofs or residence?
 

Fortheloveofcanada

Star Member
Nov 25, 2015
142
6
@Scylla
Pls i have a question if u can help me pls..
I applied for citizenship on june 9th 2015 (last june) has my test n interview in the 18th of november 2015 it was a v smooth interview the officer almost didnt ask me any questions he was just checking my stamps.. I received a fingerprint request on the 20th of january which i did on feb 1st.. Although i am from ottawa the fingerprints were sent to st. Clair office.. Since then i am still in process.. I am starting to feel really frustrated.. Any idea when i can expect an oath invite or at least a decision made on my ecas? Thank u for ur help
 

tds69us

Hero Member
Nov 22, 2011
293
5
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
alaabebe said:
We have applied to renew our permanent residences and it took the CIC almost two years from early 2012 till early 2014 to bring me for intensive interview , had request and I had supplied all supporting
documentation to prove our residence , finally we got a positive determination of our residence obligation .

one month later we all received request from CIC to appear for our citizenship tests, which we all did
me first
my second elder son
my older son
my wife
myself and my wife just met with a very nice cheerful officer , we spent few minutes and left the place
two weeks later we received a request to appear for citizenship OATH
while my wife and my second elder son , fall into a frown agressive suspicious officer , she spent an hour interrogating them and finally
received a questionnaire which have been submitted with all supporting documentations
for the period from May 2010 till may 2014.
this would definitely and surly cover more than three years required to fulfill the citizenship requirements
one year later , we received a letter signed by the CIC manager , to clarify two points of misrepresentation in their applications
two separate letters in the same time .
which we answered in full and also expressing our wellness to voluntarily coming for a hearing as required to clarify all points needed

one week later, we received a letter requesting them to come for a hearing before a citizenship Judge
both at the same day one after the other , from 09:00 AM and from 09:30 AM my second elder son
they went and unfortunately , no judge was there at this day! they waited and the guard went inside and check for some one to see them
all of the sudden the same lady , CIC officer , came and fall into them again
she met with them carrying a big file in her hand , whereas she started interrogation them again and again for the period from 2007 till 2010 which was outside the Citizenship
period required for the citizenship obligation
what is this ? what could be that ?! a deliberate instance to hand these two guys ?
my wife and son kept telling here , we have replied your points as came into the letters and we are supposed to see a judge
she said based on my recommendation you would see or not ? what an cruelty ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
she made every thing possible to put her under pressure and she was happily saying your son must be intense now and getting nervous
what is this abuse , zest of torturing innocent people?
two days letters, we received a personal registered mail with a letter signed by her .....her assessment is refusal of their citizenship application
and they are suspended to submit any application before five years!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what is this .....Injustice .....hardness ... ....in-humanitarian decision
Appeal right away...do not let Citizenship Officers decide the course of your application...some of them abuse their authority...appeal at the federal level if you have to
 

heeradeepak

Hero Member
Jun 1, 2014
398
11
alaabebe said:
We have applied to renew our permanent residences and it took the CIC almost two years from early 2012 till early 2014 to bring me for intensive interview , had request and I had supplied all supporting
documentation to prove our residence , finally we got a positive determination of our residence obligation .

one month later we all received request from CIC to appear for our citizenship tests, which we all did
me first
my second elder son
my older son
my wife
myself and my wife just met with a very nice cheerful officer , we spent few minutes and left the place
two weeks later we received a request to appear for citizenship OATH
while my wife and my second elder son , fall into a frown agressive suspicious officer , she spent an hour interrogating them and finally
received a questionnaire which have been submitted with all supporting documentations
for the period from May 2010 till may 2014.
this would definitely and surly cover more than three years required to fulfill the citizenship requirements
one year later , we received a letter signed by the CIC manager , to clarify two points of misrepresentation in their applications
two separate letters in the same time .
which we answered in full and also expressing our wellness to voluntarily coming for a hearing as required to clarify all points needed

one week later, we received a letter requesting them to come for a hearing before a citizenship Judge
both at the same day one after the other , from 09:00 AM and from 09:30 AM my second elder son
they went and unfortunately , no judge was there at this day! they waited and the guard went inside and check for some one to see them
all of the sudden the same lady , CIC officer , came and fall into them again
she met with them carrying a big file in her hand , whereas she started interrogation them again and again for the period from 2007 till 2010 which was outside the Citizenship
period required for the citizenship obligation
what is this ? what could be that ?! a deliberate instance to hand these two guys ?
my wife and son kept telling here , we have replied your points as came into the letters and we are supposed to see a judge
she said based on my recommendation you would see or not ? what an cruelty ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
she made every thing possible to put her under pressure and she was happily saying your son must be intense now and getting nervous
what is this abuse , zest of torturing innocent people?
two days letters, we received a personal registered mail with a letter signed by her .....her assessment is refusal of their citizenship application
and they are suspended to submit any application before five years!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what is this .....Injustice .....hardness ... ....in-humanitarian decision
Do you have any type of misrepresentation in application ? If not go to federal court and pull this overconfident CIC officer in court and explain to court all rudeness they did.
 

canuck_in_uk

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
31,558
7,196
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
06/12
alaabebe said:
We have applied to renew our permanent residences and it took the CIC almost two years from early 2012 till early 2014 to bring me for intensive interview ,

one year later , we received a letter signed by the CIC manager , to clarify two points of misrepresentation in their applications

she met with them carrying a big file in her hand , whereas she started interrogation them again and again for the period from 2007 till 2010 which was outside the Citizenship
You need to provide more information if you want actual advice.

It seems from your first sentence that you applied for citizenship in early 2012, so time from before 2010 would have definitely been a part of the qualifying period. When exactly did you apply?

CIC said that they committed misrepresentation. What specifically was the misrepresentation and how did you try to argue against it?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,305
3,066
alaabebe said:
We have applied to renew our permanent residences and it took the CIC almost two years from early 2012 till early 2014 to bring me for intensive interview , had request and I had supplied all supporting
documentation to prove our residence , finally we got a positive determination of our residence obligation .

one month later we all received request from CIC to appear for our citizenship tests, which we all did
me first
my second elder son
my older son
my wife
myself and my wife just met with a very nice cheerful officer , we spent few minutes and left the place
two weeks later we received a request to appear for citizenship OATH
while my wife and my second elder son , fall into a frown agressive suspicious officer , she spent an hour interrogating them and finally
received a questionnaire which have been submitted with all supporting documentations
for the period from May 2010 till may 2014.
this would definitely and surly cover more than three years required to fulfill the citizenship requirements
one year later , we received a letter signed by the CIC manager , to clarify two points of misrepresentation in their applications
two separate letters in the same time .
which we answered in full and also expressing our wellness to voluntarily coming for a hearing as required to clarify all points needed

one week later, we received a letter requesting them to come for a hearing before a citizenship Judge
both at the same day one after the other , from 09:00 AM and from 09:30 AM my second elder son
they went and unfortunately , no judge was there at this day! they waited and the guard went inside and check for some one to see them
all of the sudden the same lady , CIC officer , came and fall into them again
she met with them carrying a big file in her hand , whereas she started interrogation them again and again for the period from 2007 till 2010 which was outside the Citizenship
period required for the citizenship obligation
what is this ? what could be that ?! a deliberate instance to hand these two guys ?
my wife and son kept telling here , we have replied your points as came into the letters and we are supposed to see a judge
she said based on my recommendation you would see or not ? what an cruelty ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
she made every thing possible to put her under pressure and she was happily saying your son must be intense now and getting nervous
what is this abuse , zest of torturing innocent people?
two days letters, we received a personal registered mail with a letter signed by her .....her assessment is refusal of their citizenship application
and they are suspended to submit any application before five years!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what is this .....Injustice .....hardness ... ....in-humanitarian decision
This is a difficult situation.

Assuming the decision itself was indeed unreasonable, it is best to see a qualified, reputable lawyer AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. As others have observed, there is a limited time within which to seek review of this decision, so time is of the essence, and moreover there is no right to appeal so it is really important to get help from a lawyer who knows how to make a proper application to seek leave for judicial review.

That is, judicial review (appeal) is possible, but first one must ask, in effect, for permission from the Federal Court, and this is a technical procedure for which a lawyer's help is a virtual practical necessity.

Obviously the back side to this story is its inherent lesson: how important it is to avoid making mistakes in the information provided to the government. Damaged credibility is perhaps the most difficult problem there is to overcome.



Beyond that, some objective observations:

I am sure this has been a painful experience. I do not know to what extent the OP's post here is about looking for recourse or is an exercise in expressing dissatisfaction. Perhaps some of both?

To seek recourse, as already suggested: lawyer-up, and lawyer-up real soon.

That noted, while some lawyers are perhaps better than others in showing sympathy, the lawyer's job is not about sympathizing. It is about identifying courses of action to rectify wrongs. But a big part of that is also about identifying the issues and assessing the facts and discerning what prospects for recourse there are. That is, objectively looking at what is and why and how it got there, toward identifying where things can go from there.

I am no Canadian lawyer. But I can offer some objective observations about this situation (recognizing as others have, that there are some elements unsaid).

While it involves reading between the lines some, it is fairly obvious the CIC officer determined there was a misrepresentation made to IRCC or CBSA, constituting grounds to deny the citizenship application.

Since this is about misrepresentation, the time span for calculation of residency is not relevant; what is relevant is whether the applicant submitted inaccurate information to CIC, was that information material to the processing of the application, and did it thus constitute a material misrepresentation of fact. How the information is material is important, but the more important aspect is what the inaccurate information itself was, and how and why it was submitted to CIC.

Tough place to be in. Especially with the five year ban. And then there is the worry whether the misrepresentation could also be grounds for initiating proceedings to revoke Permanent Resident status.


Procedure in this case:

No CJ: The only cases Citizenship Judges decide after August 1, 2014, regardless when the application was made, are residency cases or, for applications made after June 11, 2015, physical presence cases. Thus, if the grounds for denying the application are based on any reason other than residency/presence that is not a matter which goes to a CJ. Thus, cases which are denied or rejected on the grounds of misrepresentation do not go to a CJ. This appears, quite clearly, to be a misrepresentation case, thus it was decided by a Citizenship Officer not a Citizenship Judge.

The OP believes they adequately responded and explained the "misrepresentation," but obviously the examining Citizenship Officer reached a contrary conclusion. It would be no surprise to experience an officer's overt dissatisfaction when the officer believes the applicants have engaged in deliberate misrepresentation. So the officer's demeanor is not surprising, even if it was rooted in error.

Whether the officer reached an appropriate or erroneous conclusion can be the subject of an application for leave to obtain Federal Court review. The application must be made timely. While individuals do not absolutely need a lawyer, with the process in place since August 1, 2014, with there being no right to appeal, the process is more complicated and a lawyer's assistance is more or less a practical necessity.

Given the consequences of this decision, if at all possible, a lawyer should be at least consulted.

The burden in making a case on appeal is high and difficult, in this situation practically limited to showing there was a significant breach of fairness in the process. Disagreement with the conclusion itself is not grounds unless the decision was so far outside the bounds of an acceptable outcome that it is unreasonable. In other words, no amount of showing it was wrong will warrant the decision being reversed on appeal; it must be shown to be unreasonable in order to be overturned.

I realize some people might equate a wrong decision with an unreasonable one. As in, isn't an outcome unreasonable if it is shown to be wrong. But no, that is not how it works. Reasonable people can reach very different conclusions. If the decision is within the range of what reasonable persons might conclude, it is not subject to being overturned on the grounds that a reviewing court thinks the decision itself was wrong.

Looks like there was a fairness letter, an opportunity to respond to that, and an opportunity to be heard in person. So it would be difficult to show there was a material denial of fair procedure. The applicant would need to show something akin to the officer failing to so much as consider material evidence, or reaching a conclusion contrary to any reasonable inference from what is clearly shown in the evidence.


Recent Federal Court decision where a Federal Court did reverse based on unreasonableness of the decision-maker's conclusions:

see http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/143404/index.do
Justice Marineau's decision in an appeal by NAJLAA LABIOUI, setting aside the decision by a Citizenship Judge

The case I cite is a residency case and is an appeal of a decision by a Citizenship Judge, so it is not the same procedure as the OP's case. If the OP is going to challenge the decision, the OP will have to seek leave for review of the Minister's decision (albeit actually a decision by a Minister's delegate, the Citizenship Officer) rather than a CJ's decision.

But some of the underlying principles of review are similar. On its face, it is largely about challenging the factual conclusions reached. Again, this is very, very difficult to do successfully. As the Minister argued in the case decided by Justice Marineau, this amounts to asking the reviewing court to reweigh the evidence that was before the decision maker (in the cited case, that being the decision by the CJ; for the OP it is the decision by a Citizenship Officer). And that is NOT the role of the court conducting a review.

The specific question asked is whether what the decision-maker decided "falls within a range of possible, acceptable outcomes which are defensible in respect of the facts and law."

As noted, these are perhaps among the most difficult cases to succeed in making on appeal. But some are successful, as it was in the case decided by Justice Marineau.


Would have, should have . . . another lesson taught:

I already noted the back side of this being the lesson about how crucial it is to be accurate when submitting information to IRCC.

Another lesson here is recognizing the significance of a fairness letter about misrepresentation. These are not common. There are more than a few probably, but they are not common. Typically IRCC (or CIC as it was before it became IRCC) characterizes discrepancies in terms of compromised credibility, the mistake or misrepresentation being reason to question, or doubt, or challenge the applicant's account of facts. Thus, questions of credibility are usually a factor in weighing the evidence overall, and this is usually about evidence or claims as to residency or presence.

A case which is more or less specifically a misrepresentation case is different. Remember, a finding of misrepresentation is a stand alone ground for denying the application, no matter how qualified for citizenship the PR was otherwise. (Obvious, most cited example, is the applicant who used a Mississauga address, one provided by his consultant, because his consultant said the processing time was much faster in Mississauga; claim is the applicant actually lived in Montreal, so he was still resident and present in Canada, just in a different city. Denied. Did not matter he actually met the residency requirement. The false information submitted was grounds to deny.)

In particular, if IRCC identifies a factual discrepancy as reason to overtly address it as a misrepresentation, this is a big deal. Heads-up: big problem looming. Heads-up: probably time to lawyer-up. Just plain heads-up!

I have not seen one of these letters. My guess is that they look like just about any other communication from IRCC, almost generic. That is, they probably do not give notice, in any print let alone in bold, that they are what is described as a fairness letter. My impression is that they simply notify the applicant of an issue and offer the applicant an opportunity to respond. And do not overtly suggest let alone specify the importance such a letter has.

As the OP here describes, they simply received letters requesting the applicants to "clarify two points of misrepresentation in their applications."

Probably did not look that much different than the letters other applicants sometimes receive, such as a request to submit a copy of a rental lease.

But there is a difference.

If the term "misrepresentation" was explicitly used that is probably more than some in a similar situation might be told. Less salient terms like "discrepancy" might be used. The term "misrepresentation" might not alert many, but to anyone familiar with CIC/IRCC procedure, it is a term which rings bells and flashes lights and waves a huge red flag. Some emphatic expletives come to mind.

And the problem is that by the time this kind of letter is sent to someone, the officer deciding to send the letter has largely already made up his or her mind that this was indeed a misrepresentation. Not a mistake. Not an oversight. A misrepresentation, and that makes it a very big deal.

In any event, while it might not always be easy to recognize a fairness letter as such, anyone who receives a fairness letter which is about misrepresentations or discrepancies needs to take immediate action, and consulting with a lawyer is among the first and more important actions to take. This is serious stuff. The consequences can be severe and go beyond being denied citizenship. Government housing of the not-at-all pleasant sort could be looming in the wings.


The Sad Side:

Even among those who were not altogether innocent, many times these things arise more from misunderstanding rather than an overt scheme to mislead. Indeed, many times mostly innocent persons are persuaded by others to give information or answers which are not accurate because the inaccurate answer will, supposedly, be better. Bad advice. There is a lot of such bad advice.

And then some people have a great deal more difficulty explaining how and why the inaccurate information was given, and the misunderstanding is made worse, the problem is made worse. My impression is that those with fraudulent intent tend to be better prepared to navigate this while those who are confused, and misled by bad advice, are the ones who tend to fall deeper and deeper into a problematic transaction with IRCC/CIC, and end up being punished more than the real culprits.

All I can offer is the typical caution I often give: follow the instructions and do your best to be complete and accurate. Beyond that, if mistakes are made, correct them sooner rather than later; but if there is any sign that IRCC is focusing on compromised credibility and especially if there is any indication IRCC is identifying erroneous information as a "misrepresentation," then it is time to lawyer-up.
 
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alaabebe

Full Member
Apr 19, 2016
42
0
Alurra71 said:
Something in the applications triggered the officer to think there is a form of misrepresentation. Remember, they can examine the time period quite a while back as necessary to even ensure that you were eligible to apply for citizenship at the time the application was signed. It seems as though your files go back quite some time if the officer was looking all the way back to 2007.
we, the whole family have renewed our permanent residences after through investigations that last for two years
we applied for PR renewal on y 2012 and we got it on y 2014 after personal interviews as well
we have a letter from CIC of their positive determination of residence obligation for this period
citizenship applications submitted on may 2012 and for a period of four years covering more than 3.5 years , more than required for citizenship
 

alaabebe

Full Member
Apr 19, 2016
42
0
fishbone said:
That's quite interesting - I was under the impression that the only period that could be under review is the 4 year time frame prior to the signing of the application.

alaabee - Did the letter provide a reason for refusal? I wasn't able to tell by your original comment but did your wife and son get to see the judge?
No this is not interesting , this is frustrating !
unfortunately , my wife and son met with the same complicated lady that they met first time they did the citizinship test with
they did not meet the judge as planned