Dependant children application Refusal

[BCgirl2012]

FS, I'm sure you've diligently provided a good amount of proof about your intention to return to Canada. I really hope your wife gets her visa with minimum/no delay and you guys can return to Canada as you have scheduled.

I do think, however, that a citizen is a citizen. I believe if a Canadian born citizen doesn't provide proper evidence that they will return to Canada after PR is issued, their case will be denied, too. It's the law. What you mention in terms of family ties is true, not because someone has no other place to go to, rather it becomes an evidence that helps make the case. If a person (naturalized or not) has all their family in a different country, then they must provide relavent evidence as to their return to Canada after PR is issued, since they have less family ties to Canada. So it will become a matter of looking at each case individually and consider what amount of evidence is necessary to convince the visa officer that the legal requirements are met.

Best of luck and a speedy process to all of us

 

[Steph C]

FS, I'm sure you've diligently provided a good amount of proof about your intention to return to Canada. I really hope your wife gets her visa with minimum/no delay and you guys can return to Canada as you have scheduled.

I do think, however, that a citizen is a citizen. I believe if a Canadian born citizen doesn't provide proper evidence that they will return to Canada after PR is issued, their case will be denied, too. It's the law. What you mention in terms of family ties is true, not because someone has no other place to go to, rather it becomes an evidence that helps make the case. If a person (naturalized or not) has all their family in a different country, then they must provide relavent evidence as to their return to Canada after PR is issued, since they have less family ties to Canada. So it will become a matter of looking at each case individually and consider what amount of evidence is necessary to convince the visa officer that the legal requirements are met.

Best of luck and a speedy process to all of us

The guy was in Canada for 3 years total, ending 8 years ago, as a PR. He came back for 6 months in 2006 to claim his Citizenship then was back for a few months in 2007, possibly also to do with claiming his citizenship. I know he's technically a citizen, but when people acquire citizenship like a feather in their hat just to go back to their home country it insults me as a Canadian.. maybe I just love my country too much to be honest I sometimes hate it here too, but it's my home and it's all I've got.

 

[BCgirl2012]

The guy was in Canada for 3 years total, ending 8 years ago, as a PR. He came back for 6 months in 2006 to claim his Citizenship then was back for a few months in 2007, possibly also to do with claiming his citizenship. I know he's technically a citizen, but when people acquire citizenship like a feather in their hat just to go back to their home country it insults me as a Canadian.. maybe I just love my country too much to be honest I sometimes hate it here too, but it's my home and it's all I've got.

Steph C, what you're saying is true, and I understand it. However, we are looking at this case from the legal stand point. CIC requires that people demonstrate they are serious in their intention to return to Canada once the PR is issued, and the guy in the CANLii case obviously failed to do so. The law also states that when a PR is present in Canada for 3 years out of four years ( and they are very specific about the number of days for physical presence) then the person is eligible to apply to become a Canadian citizen. Nowhere in the law it is stated that the citizenship will be less valuable than someone who was born here. That's what's great about Canada. and oh, BTW, a lot of people have dual citizenships. Nothing wrong with that under Canadian law.

I agree that sometimes people aren't exactly straightforward with their intention when it comes to immigration. We have seen a lot of cases who could be referred to as immigration fraud. But assuming that who ever has lived outside of Canada for a while is trying to take advantage of the system is a bit unfair, IMHO. Sometimes, it takes people a few years before they can pack and move to a new country. and I personally know a lot of Canadian born and raised (3rd and 4th generation) who have spent all of their professional life working abroad.

Anyways, apologies to the original poster. I really don't know about your specific case, except that you need to satisfy CIC you will return to Canada if they issue your kids their PRs. I hope your case concludes positively. Best wishes.

 

[Steph C]

I fully agree that the values I stand for and that I'm proud of Canada for sticking to is that we are all treated equally.. and I look forward to my partner being treated as equally as I am. I was just pointing out that the guy in the CANlii case did the exact bare minimum requirements to become a citizen. It reminds me of the movie Office Space where the girl wears the bare minimum required amount of flare..
Anyways good luck to Maroof, sorry I can't be of much help to you.

 

[maroof]

I am thankful for every one who has provided me their opinion on how to move forward. I am of the opinion to file my appeal based on the facts that we really have plans to be back once the kids have the visa formalities finalised.

Some of facts on the application are as follows.

Son age: 12 years
Daughter age: 11 years
Wife became PR holder: 13 years ago
Living outside Canada: 13 years

( I was Permanent Resident when both kids were born)

So all of the above facts definitely can impact our case towards the commitment of settling back to Canada, however I have registered an entity few years ago in Toronto and have a plan to revive it while back in Canada. It is also true that my personnel involvement with my business (outside Canada) would still be there but my family would be living in Canada full time with kids going to school.

Please help if I should get some lawyer to help me with this appeal case or should gather all proofs and submit them directly as I did earlier with my case.

Thank you once again,

Regards,


Maroof

 

[Fencesitter]

The guy was in Canada for 3 years total, ending 8 years ago, as a PR. He came back for 6 months in 2006 to claim his Citizenship then was back for a few months in 2007, possibly also to do with claiming his citizenship. I know he's technically a citizen, but when people acquire citizenship like a feather in their hat just to go back to their home country it insults me as a Canadian.. maybe I just love my country too much to be honest I sometimes hate it here too, but it's my home and it's all I've got.

This is a good point. Just because you are a citizen of Canada doesn't necessarily make you "Canadian". In this case, he is not, in my view, a Canadian like Steph C or myself. It should insult all true Canadians! These are the kind of loopholes that need to be close permanently. Citizenship should take longer than 3 years to acquire and there should be strings attached. To gain citizenship and then leave to live in your home country, well, what's the point of gaining Canadian citizenship? The only reason would be to use it as a fall back position...a second choice...nah...you're either a true Canadian or you're a charlatan...no matter what the 'law' says...

FS

 

[rites.of.spring]

well said!

This is a good point. Just because you are a citizen of Canada doesn't necessarily make you "Canadian". In this case, he is not, in my view, a Canadian like Steph C or myself. It should insult all true Canadians! These are the kind of loopholes that need to be close permanently. Citizenship should take longer than 3 years to acquire and there should be strings attached. To gain citizenship and then leave to live in your home country, well, what's the point of gaining Canadian citizenship? The only reason would be to use it as a fall back position...a second choice...nah...you're either a true Canadian or you're a charlatan...no matter what the 'law' says...

FS

 

[rites.of.spring]

people never cease to amaze me! we suffer like pigs in the middle east and yearn for fair treatment and then when a country like Canada opens hers arms..we start to play games and become the beasts we despise!

 

[BCgirl2012]

This is a good point. Just because you are a citizen of Canada doesn't necessarily make you "Canadian". In this case, he is not, in my view, a Canadian like Steph C or myself. It should insult all true Canadians! These are the kind of loopholes that need to be close permanently. Citizenship should take longer than 3 years to acquire and there should be strings attached. To gain citizenship and then leave to live in your home country, well, what's the point of gaining Canadian citizenship? The only reason would be to use it as a fall back position...a second choice...nah...you're either a true Canadian or you're a charlatan...no matter what the 'law' says...

FS

FS, I think you're missing my point! I'm not discussing the "canadian-ness" of anybody. The law that you're asking to change is the same law that decided the person's case on CANLii is not acceptable. Therefore, he was denied.

The point of who is Canadian, and who deserves to be Canadian is not a discussion that I would like to engage in. I honor and appreciate this country exactly because of the fact that accepts people and there is no 1st class or second class citizens. Remember that our partners will be coming to this country as PRs first, and later they will become naturalized citizens. I certainly don't want to ever hear anyone say because they weren't born here they have less rights than someone who was born here. This is a thin line that we should be careful about. I'd like to point your attention to the fact that there are people who come here to give birth to their children, and their kids will be born Canadians. Do you really think that based on your reasoning, our spouses should have less rights than those kids?

You see, my point is that there was a reason the laws were setup the way they are. Now, I respect your opinion and strongly believe that if you feel some of the laws aren't just, we should change them- but only after the proper legal steps are taken.

I'd say the 5 year rule has been a good start. I hope you see my point.

Other than that, I find discussing this issue in this thread a bit inappropriate. I'd be more than happy to continue this discussion in another thread once someone starts it. However, this thread was started because someone in need of help came here to ask for what all of us have been benefiting from: some expert advice. I am in no position to judge someone I don't know, and you shouldn't either.

Best regards.

 

[Fencesitter]

FS, I think you're missing my point! I'm not discussing the "canadian-ness" of anybody. The law that you're asking to change is the same law that decided the person's case on CANLii is not acceptable. Therefore, he was denied.

The point of who is Canadian, and who deserves to be Canadian is not a discussion that I would like to engage in. I honor and appreciate this country exactly because of the fact that accepts people and there is no 1st class or second class citizens. Remember that our partners will be coming to this country as PRs first, and later they will become naturalized citizens. I certainly don't want to ever hear anyone say because they weren't born here they have less rights than someone who was born here. This is a thin line that we should be careful about. I'd like to point your attention to the fact that there are people who come here to give birth to their children, and their kids will be born Canadians. Do you really think that based on your reasoning, our spouses should have less rights than those kids?

You see, my point is that there was a reason the laws were setup the way they are. Now, I respect your opinion and strongly believe that if you feel some of the laws aren't just, we should change them- but only after the proper legal steps are taken.

I'd say the 5 year rule has been a good start. I hope you see my point.

Other than that, I find discussing this issue in this thread a bit inappropriate. I'd be more than happy to continue this discussion in another thread once someone starts it. However, this thread was started because someone in need of help came here to ask for what all of us have been benefiting from: some expert advice. I am in no position to judge someone I don't know, and you shouldn't either.

Best regards.

The law is the law in terms of rights as a Canadian citizen...no argument there. I mostly agree with your other points as well. The 5-year rule is a good step towards the reform we need, however, it doesn't go far enough, and doing it piecemeal is not the best approach, IMHO.

As for the whole the "Canadian-ness" point, I wasn't really talking about 1st or 2nd class citizens. Under the law, a citizen is a citizen. However, in practical terms, someone who is born and raised in Canada is definitely more Canadian than an immigrant. I don't think anyone would disagree. Culture has a lot to do with it, and even though Canada is a multicultural society, we still have cultural roots as Canadians, just like the U.S.

Anyway, it's a good topic for conversation, and as Canadians, I think it's important that we share our beliefs and ideas to better understand each other...so thanks for sharing.

Yeah, I also think that it's unfair to hijack this thread. Sorry, OP. I already posted my views in regards to the questions raised by the OP, so hopefully more members will also contribute to give more advice.

FS

 

[missmini]

actually FS i strongly disagree; there is "no more Canadian or less" just Canadian; many immigrants love and appreciate Canada more than u think, they would have loved to b born there too but hmm it didn't work; Canada gave them a chance of having a decent life and took them out from misery; for many home is not where u were born home is where u r happy, where u feel u r appreciated for who u r (not for how much money u have or for which powerfull person u know), where u can make ur dreams come true; do u think it's easy to leave behind everyone u know and love, all the familiar places and just move with a suitcase? starting from 0 is really hard; but ppl do it cuz they r just fed up of the misery, corruption, war and so many other problems their birth country has to offer; they just do it to offer their children a chance to a better life, to a life where they have a chance to fulfill their dreams; none of us can choose where we r born but all of us can choose where we want our home to be; and i'm sure many ppl who immigrated see canada as their home and not what they left behind;

i admire ppl who do it but i also understand the ones who struggle between 2 worlds (different culture, mentalities, etc) - struggle for the first job and so many other things; many r success stories and others didn't manage and since they have children to feed maybe they had to work outside; we cannot blame them either; and since we don't know anyone's full situation we cannot draw conclusion only a judge can

of course there r some who abuse the law, there r citizens who maybe even faked their residency; i hope somehow they will b found and punished; the problem is not even from them, the people, but it came from all kind of bad lawyers and consultants who knew the go-arounds of the law and taught them; these ppl r just imoral and they should b in jail

i don't want to create new arguments, but i really wanted ppl to see things from the eyes of a naturalized citizen too; happy Canada Day / Bonne Fête du Canada!!!!!

 

[missmini]

I am thankful for every one who has provided me their opinion on how to move forward. I am of the opinion to file my appeal based on the facts that we really have plans to be back once the kids have the visa formalities finalised.

Some of facts on the application are as follows.

Son age: 12 years
Daughter age: 11 years
Wife became PR holder: 13 years ago
Living outside Canada: 13 years

( I was Permanent Resident when both kids were born)

So all of the above facts definitely can impact our case towards the commitment of settling back to Canada, however I have registered an entity few years ago in Toronto and have a plan to revive it while back in Canada. It is also true that my personnel involvement with my business (outside Canada) would still be there but my family would be living in Canada full time with kids going to school.

Please help if I should get some lawyer to help me with this appeal case or should gather all proofs and submit them directly as I did earlier with my case.

Thank you once again,

Regards,


Maroof

i'm so sorry it looks that u have a very steep hill to climb; the problems i see: too long outside canada, u barely stayed in canada while u were pr, if u also sponsored ur wife that means that time too u said u would return to canada and for the past 13 years u did not, ur wife even if she's a pr never lived in canada for 13 years; to make them think that ur children will u really need to have strong convincing proof; and a company is not enough (there it's so easy to get a license, say u have a company and then close it one year later); from my honest opinion it will b really hard to win the appeal by urself; maybe u should talk to a good lawyer and ask his/her opinion

 

[Fencesitter]

actually FS i strongly disagree; there is "no more Canadian or less" just Canadian;

I guess being born and raised in Canada doesn't count. An immigrant at, let's say, 35 is just as Canadian. Is that right? I know so many people who would disagree with that argument.

There is still such a thing as Canadian culture. I was born and raised on that culture. You can never compare that to a new immigrant or a naturalized citizen. No way...no how...

I think it's great if a PR or a naturalized citizen loves Canada, but that is beside the point I am making.

Anyway, let's not detract from this thread and hijack it anymore than it has been...

FS

 

[missmini]

the way i see it, Canadian culture is actually a mix of all cultures in the world + the first Nations ones; that's how i was taught when i was going to initiation classes every new immigrant young or old contributes to that; Canadian values on the other hand is something we all get once we land or r born there, something we all have to respect, cherish

if i would take ur point than my spouse (and many other spouses) would b less Canadian than us, how would that make sense ??? i would never see Canada as my home and my children's home if the laws would treat my spouse (and their father) like that; i know for a fact that the day he will b a citizen will b the happiest day of his life, just it was for me xx years ago and he will work hard and contribute to make Canada a better place just as much as someone who arrived there at 10 years old or was born there

and yeah i hope we don't need to continue this argument

 

[Fencesitter]

Look, I just have a different opinion on this issue. I know many, many people who share that view, including my wife!!!

Oh, and by 'argument' I don't mean 'fight'....more like discussion...as I respect others' views and don't mind defending my position...and hey, I agree with some of the sentiments posted above.

And perhaps, on the whole, and as a country (with all the political correctness that goes with that), Canada is multicultural...but it still has a core...just like the U.S., England, France, and so on and so on...

The main thing that got me on this subject was the case CharlieD10 linked. How can that guy be considered a Canadian when he has never really lived in Canada for any great length of time? Is a baby who is born in Canada, but leaves to live in a different country, still Canadian? Explain how...and forget about the 'law'...Explain to me how people who immigrate to Canada but refuse to live outside their comfort zones (i.e. outside their immigrant community) can be considered as Canadian...or just as Canadian, as someone who is fully immersed in the culture...even my wife is astounded that people on this forum would take the opposite position...even she said that when she is in Canada, she will still consider herself Chinese/Canadian...not Canadian/Chinese...as the latter would mean that you were born and raised in Canada...

I'm NOT trying to start a fight with anyone!! I just think this is an issue that is on the minds of a lot of people in Canada...it's also a hot topic in the U.S. and other Western countries...so this isn't anything new...and definitely not unique to Canada.

FS