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Canada stiffens sentences for drunk driving, raising new immigration concerns

canuck_in_uk

VIP Member
May 4, 2012
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What do you make of this article? - Canada stiffens sentences for drunk driving, raising new immigration concerns

Does someone who was previously deemed rehabilitated for a DUI now stand to lose the rehabilitation status or not have permanent residency status renewed?

The article seems to have a lot of hedged language where it isn't exactly clear what the ultimate impact of these changes will be.
No, that is not what it says. It would mean that if you are convicted under the new rules AFTER you are already a PR, you can have your status revoked. This is already the procedure for a PR convicted of any serious crime, such as murder, violent assault etc.
 
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zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
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App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
And the moral of this story is - DON'T DUI...
 
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LifeDreamer

Hero Member
Feb 14, 2018
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The changes apply to people who have not been assessed for admissibility yet, people deemed admissible and admitted in Canada can remain for the duration of their status until they seek entry again or apply to change or extend status, in which they'll likely be denied.

If you're a PR you're OK unless you commit DUI 180 days from now, same applies if you have been granted rehabilitation before.

Foreign nationals who have previous DUI conviction, including those who visited Canada in the past, now stand inadmissible indefinitely and must apply for rehabilitation. It also follows that foreign nationals with multiple DUI convictions will stand permanently barred from Canada.

Do I think it is reasonable? Well, I'm all for stricter enforcement and I believe random checks are necessary but this change does not address that it will not change anything about people committing DUI in Canada because nobody can ever realistically expect to do more than 5 years for DUI if they haven't crashed or injured/killed anyone. It will only affect immigrant communities and potentially lead to separating families and deport people who thought they could come here which is unjust in my opinion. You can imagine that a genuine asylum seeker could be deported back to danger in his home country without appeal for having committed DUI 20 years ago, even if that was on a scooter, while a similar person who recently committed multiple violent assaults could remain in Canada. Clearly this does not make sense.
 
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robertobolano

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Jun 13, 2018
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AOR Received.
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Thanks... my wife got a DUI 14 years ago after two drinks at dinner. We're in the middle of uploading documents. I'm hoping to make it within the 180-day window but also considering pursuing the individual rehabilitation process in tandem with the PR application to be safe. Unfortunately we don't have FBI docs back yet to see what is really in the record; it was supposed to be expunged.
 
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LifeDreamer

Hero Member
Feb 14, 2018
499
122
Thanks... my wife got a DUI 14 years ago after two drinks at dinner. We're in the middle of uploading documents. I'm hoping to make it within the 180-day window but also considering pursuing the individual rehabilitation process in tandem with the PR application to be safe. Unfortunately we don't have FBI docs back yet to see what is really in the record; it was supposed to be expunged.
If you get past AOR you're ok, unless your application is refused for some reason and you had to reapply as the provisions still wouldn't kick in until 180 days. If your wife's case was expunged completely in the US you could also apply without rehabilitation. You could prepare your rehabilitation application and get all necessary docs but don't apply unless you are instructed to do so by your case officer because I don't think it's needed in your case.
 

mch88

Member
Sep 26, 2018
13
2
The changes apply to people who have not been assessed for admissibility yet, people deemed admissible and admitted in Canada can remain for the duration of their status until they seek entry again or apply to change or extend status, in which they'll likely be denied.

If you're a PR you're OK unless you commit DUI 180 days from now, same applies if you have been granted rehabilitation before.

Foreign nationals who have previous DUI conviction, including those who visited Canada in the past, now stand inadmissible indefinitely and must apply for rehabilitation. It also follows that foreign nationals with multiple DUI convictions will stand permanently barred from Canada.

Do I think it is reasonable? Well, I'm all for stricter enforcement and I believe random checks are necessary but this change does not address that it will not change anything about people committing DUI in Canada because nobody can ever realistically expect to do more than 5 years for DUI if they haven't crashed or injured/killed anyone. It will only affect immigrant communities and potentially lead to separating families and deport people who thought they could come here which is unjust in my opinion. You can imagine that a genuine asylum seeker could be deported back to danger in his home country without appeal for having committed DUI 20 years ago, even if that was on a scooter, while a similar person who recently committed multiple violent assaults could remain in Canada. Clearly this does not make sense.
What is the effect on people with DUI charges that were dismissed and expunged through a state disposition program.
 

LifeDreamer

Hero Member
Feb 14, 2018
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What is the effect on people with DUI charges that were dismissed and expunged through a state disposition program.
If you received a sentence, fine or community service as part of the disposition program then it will be regarded as a conviction.
 

mch88

Member
Sep 26, 2018
13
2
If you received a sentence, fine or community service as part of the disposition program then it will be regarded as a conviction.
And I'm also not trying to be confrontational, just trying to find the facts, but you also stated this in a previous post to another poster?

"This is not a problem for IRCC because they are not looking to find out if you are guilty or not, only if you were convicted. A conditional discharge, although an indication of guilt, is not a conviction but rather an agreement between the prosecutor and the defendant to admit to the offense and follow a probationary period in exchange for not receiving a criminal record. Canada honors this agreement and treats the applicant as someone who's not guilty even though a guilty plea was entered and the case documents show abundance of evidence that portray the applicant as being guilty to any lay person. This is also the case when the offense is committed abroad and was disposed of in similar manner, especially when the foreign jurisdiction has similar values and foundations as Canadian law. Take for example in many US states a charge may be dismissed with a "continuance without a finding" process which is essentially a conditional discharge agreed by the prosecutor. The defendant pleads guilty but the judge continues the case indefinitely therefore not entering a conviction record. In such case the applicant is not inadmissible if the disposition is final.

To understand this further, the IRCC never pursue the case or put the applicant under trial again for admissibility purposes, they do not act as judges or jury. The only exception is an offense committed abroad for which charges are pending or may be laid in the future in which case they only need to have some objective evidence that the applicant had committed the offense and they only need to believe this on a reasonable grounds basis (balance of probabilities for PRs)."
 

Femlala

Full Member
Nov 16, 2015
45
3
If you received a sentence, fine or community service as part of the disposition program then it will be regarded as a conviction.
@LifeDreamer

Wow this is so not true. In the court, if you have a good lawyer you can get away on a probation, and fine with a conditional discharge, especially if you have no initial criminal record. My point is you can get all these without a conviction so this is absolutely incorrect information.
 

Femlala

Full Member
Nov 16, 2015
45
3
And I'm also not trying to be confrontational, just trying to find the facts, but you also stated this in a previous post to another poster?

"This is not a problem for IRCC because they are not looking to find out if you are guilty or not, only if you were convicted. A conditional discharge, although an indication of guilt, is not a conviction but rather an agreement between the prosecutor and the defendant to admit to the offense and follow a probationary period in exchange for not receiving a criminal record. Canada honors this agreement and treats the applicant as someone who's not guilty even though a guilty plea was entered and the case documents show abundance of evidence that portray the applicant as being guilty to any lay person. This is also the case when the offense is committed abroad and was disposed of in similar manner, especially when the foreign jurisdiction has similar values and foundations as Canadian law. Take for example in many US states a charge may be dismissed with a "continuance without a finding" process which is essentially a conditional discharge agreed by the prosecutor. The defendant pleads guilty but the judge continues the case indefinitely therefore not entering a conviction record. In such case the applicant is not inadmissible if the disposition is final.

To understand this further, the IRCC never pursue the case or put the applicant under trial again for admissibility purposes, they do not act as judges or jury. The only exception is an offense committed abroad for which charges are pending or may be laid in the future in which case they only need to have some objective evidence that the applicant had committed the offense and they only need to believe this on a reasonable grounds basis (balance of probabilities for PRs)."

@mch88 @LifeDreamer

Can you see that this contradicts what you said about fines and all being considered as a conviction? Lol
 

LifeDreamer

Hero Member
Feb 14, 2018
499
122
There is no contradiction. Look closely!

I mentioned that if you received a sentence, fine, community service or any other form of punishment in your case then it will count as a conviction. If you only had probation and an agreement to drop the case on good behavior in the future then it will not count as a conviction as that will be equivalent to a conditional discharge in Canada.

I am not citing my opinions here but what actually is in IRCC operating manuals. If you had been sentenced or fined in your previous DUI case then you are unfortunately inadmissible to Canada and must wait to go through rehabilitation.
 

Femlala

Full Member
Nov 16, 2015
45
3
@LifeDreamer

I was fined by the courts and still got my PR. I don't agree with you at all. I'll need proof to believe this.

In all, a conviction is a conviction and fines doesn't necessarily mean a conviction.