Can I Fly to Canada with green card and non-Canadian passport when my PR card has expired?

[armoured]

I am a Canadian PR and US Lawful Permanent Resident. I currently live in the US.

My PR card is expiring in Aug 2023 but I am sure I have maintained my Residency Obligation. I have travelled many times to Canada by land in the past few months and and been allowed entry and CBSA confirmed I met my RO.

I want to travel by Air to Canada in Oct 2023 to attend my Canadian citizenship oath ceremony.

I know that as an LPR, green card plus non-Canadian passport is accepted to board a commercial plane to Canada.

Source - https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1053

I also know that as a PR one must present one-self as a PR to CBSA when at immigration, and despite an expired PR card they will let you enter canada provided you meet Residency Obligations.

Considering the above, does anyone see any issues with me flying to Canada given my expired Canadian PR card?

I do not know if this has been covered in this thread which seems to have gone all over the place but I think has missed the point:

-to my knowledge, US permanent residents (non-citizens) who wish to board a plane to Canada need an ETA (electronic travel authorization) which has to be applied for online. [UPDATE: MISTAKEN INFORMATION, REQUIREMENTS CHANGED AFTERWARDS]

The Canadian ETA site will not issue an ETA to Canadian permanent residents (or Canadian citizens of course).

Note, I believe there are two steps, but have never had to apply for one - first, the applicant must attest that they are not a PR or citizen, and lying would be a bad idea; and second, I believe the system does actually check in system for matches against Canadian PRs.

I cannot 100% state, however, that there is no possibility the system will not issue an ETA (in error) to a Canadian PR.

Therefore: I would suggest you plan to return to Canada by flying to a site near border and crossing by foot or private vehicle. Your expired PR card will be sufficient for that ( may get asked why no valid PR card, just tell the truth - it expired).


Background: had friends of mixed us citizen/PR background visit and the one US PR had to get the ETA at last moment. But that person is not a Canadian PR so had no issues.

[editadd]: read the thread below - THIS REQUIREMENT FOR AN ETA WAS CHANGED SUBSEQUENT TO THE EXPERIENCE DESCRIBED ABOVE, IT SEEMS TO NO LONGER APPLY.

 

[Wacky1.nash]

I do not know if this has been covered in this thread which seems to have gone all over the place but I think has missed the point:

-to my knowledge, US permanent residents (non-citizens) who wish to board a plane to Canada need an ETA (electronic travel authorization) which has to be applied for online.

The Canadian ETA site will not issue an ETA to Canadian permanent residents (or Canadian citizens of course).

Note, I believe there are two steps, but have never had to apply for one - first, the applicant must attest that they are not a PR or citizen, and lying would be a bad idea; and second, I believe the system does actually check in system for matches against Canadian PRs.

I cannot 100% state, however, that there is no possibility the system will not issue an ETA (in error) to a Canadian PR.

Therefore: I would suggest you plan to return to Canada by flying to a site near border and crossing by foot or private vehicle. Your expired PR card will be sufficient for that ( may get asked why no valid PR card, just tell the truth - it expired).


Background: had friends of mixed us citizen/PR background visit and the one US PR had to get the ETA at last moment. But that person is not a Canadian PR so had no issues.

“Lawful permanent residents of the United States who hold valid status in the U.S. are exempt from the eTA requirement.”

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/eta/facts.html#

 

[dpenabill]

My question is NOT about CBSA granting me entry. It is about whether I would have any issues boarding a plane.

Like @Ponga I am not familiar with the rules governing travelers, to Canada via airlines, who are Legal Permanent Residents in the U.S. In fact, it appears even just in terms of authorization to enter Canada the rules regarding this must have changed since I last paid attention to the status of U.S. PRs in Canadian immigration.

In regards to the effect of immigration status, being allowed to board a flight to Canada is mostly, but not entirely, subject to electronic authorization through the CBSA system that clears travelers to board flights, the system which processes Advance Passenger Information from the airline. While "eTA" itself refers to the electronic travel authorization which is for visa exempt travelers, the same system checks other types of status and likewise, when the traveler's U.S. passport, Canadian PR card, or Canadian passport, is entered into the system (CBSA system) there is, in effect, a Board or No Board electronic response. It is not screening by airline personnel, at least not other than the act of running the traveler's document through the system and getting confirmation from the system the traveler is allowed to board . . . so it is not a judgment made by the airline, not usually anymore, although immigration status authorizing entry into Canada was checked visually by airline personnel in the past, and this can still happen. Airlines have a lot of liability for who they board, so they can and sometimes will be more strict in screening than the electronic authorization system. I just cannot guess how often, when, or why.

The webpage you link seems to indicate that U.S. PRs are now among those who do not need eTA to board a flight, but there is a long list of documents they can use . . . this on its face this appears inconsistent with how the pre-boarding "board or no-board" electronic decisions are made, as the system is largely geared to process very specific documents (this is actually dictated by commercial carrier regulations, NOT immigration law or rules, and at the moment I cannot put my cursor on the site listing acceptable documents). So it is not clear how this works. That is, it is not clear (to me anyway) how the system clears U.S. PRs for boarding a flight to Canada, but apparently it does, somehow.

So it is hard to say if this process will flag the traveler as a Canadian PR (or citizen for that matter), and give a no board response unless a PR card, PR TD, Canadian passport or special TD, is entered.

If you find out, let us know eh.

 

[armoured]

“Lawful permanent residents of the United States who hold valid status in the U.S. are exempt from the eTA requirement.”

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/eta/facts.html#

Thank you - looking elsewhere I found the discrepancy, this was changed in April 2022, and the occasion above was a few months before that. So you are correct, my apologies for the inadvertent misfire.

"As of April 26, 2022, lawful permanent residents of the United States are also exempt from the eTA requirement and must show these documents for all methods of travel to Canada:"

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/eta/eligibility.html

Note, I have no idea whether this means you'll be asked/required by the airline to show a valid PR card; all I can say is that as I read the rules, they SHOULD require you to have one, but whether they do in practice - no idea.

I'd warn that what with providing passport/visa info online in advance, I now assume that the receiving country will - in most cases - have time to stop things if they want, and not necessarily at a time convenient to you (i.e. if it happens to you at the gate, it's your problem).

 

[canuck78]

Thank you - looking elsewhere I found the discrepancy, this was changed in April 2022, and the occasion above was a few months before that. So you are correct, my apologies for the inadvertent misfire.

"As of April 26, 2022, lawful permanent residents of the United States are also exempt from the eTA requirement and must show these documents for all methods of travel to Canada:"

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/eta/eligibility.html

Note, I have no idea whether this means you'll be asked/required by the airline to show a valid PR card; all I can say is that as I read the rules, they SHOULD require you to have one, but whether they do in practice - no idea.

I'd warn that what with providing passport/visa info online in advance, I now assume that the receiving country will - in most cases - have time to stop things if they want, and not necessarily at a time convenient to you (i.e. if it happens to you at the gate, it's your problem).

This quoted information doesn’t specify what happens if the US permanent resident is also a Canadian PR. I would imagine the information is really for US resident without status in Canada. The fact that you are a Canadian PR may make this statement irrelevant for your case. Your Canadian status tends to overrule status in another country except for US citizens. Would suggest contacting CBSA to clarify what will happen if you try to board a fight to Canada

 

[Ponga]

This quoted information doesn’t specify what happens if the US permanent resident is also a Canadian PR. I would imagine the information is really for US resident without status in Canada. The fact that you are a Canadian PR may make this statement irrelevant for your case. Your Canadian status tends to overrule status in another country except for US citizens. Would suggest contacting CBSA to clarify what will happen if you try to board a fight to Canada

It's a question for the airline, NOT CBSA.
CBSA is the `bouncer' that determines if a person can actually ENTER Canada; the commercial carrier just delivers them to CBSA. LOL!

 

[armoured]

This quoted information doesn’t specify what happens if the US permanent resident is also a Canadian PR. I would imagine the information is really for US resident without status in Canada. The fact that you are a Canadian PR may make this statement irrelevant for your case. Your Canadian status tends to overrule status in another country except for US citizens. Would suggest contacting CBSA to clarify what will happen if you try to board a fight to Canada

If not clear, yes, I agree with your assessment.

In my previous post I'd stated the position unequivocally, that - under previous rules - US permanent residents REQUIRED an ETA, and IRCC would (barring some error) definitely NOT issue an ETA to a Canadian permanent resident. Therefore under previous rules, the implication was clear - a Canadian PR should absolutely not count on being able to board a plane without a valid PR card or pRTD because it was highly likely ETA would be refused.

With the change in rules (i.e. that US greencard holders no longer require an ETA), I do not know what happens- they don't have to get the ETA in advance. As @dpenabill noted (and described better than I did), most of the time passenger info is provided automatically to CBSA/other govt authorities for pre-flight clearance, and (in theory) could be refused boarding/pre-clearance (CBSA could advise the airlines of this). But I do not know to what extent this actually happens in practice, or if the airlines will refuse boarding to a US greencard holder on that basis.

So anyone in this situation will be taking that risk, and should either make other plans (if they don't mind the risk). And tell us what happens if they decide to chance it.

 

[dpenabill]

It's a question for the airline, NOT CBSA.
CBSA is the `bouncer' that determines if a person can actually ENTER Canada; the commercial carrier just delivers them to CBSA. LOL!

The post by @canuck78 and this last post by @armoured.

The airlines are usually (but not always, which can confuse trying to forecast how things go) only the messenger. CBSA makes the decision. Rather, CBSA's electronic passenger authorization system makes the decision. All the airlines does is enter the respective document identification number/code into the system and the system gives a "Board or No-Board" response.

This is based on the CBSA system recognizing that specific document, for that individual, as authorization, as you say, to "enter" Canada. But having status that authorizes a person to enter Canada is NOT enough. The system only recognizes very specific documents. It will, for example (as we all know), NOT give a "Board" response to a Canadian (with certain exceptions) unless the Canadian presents either a PR card or Canadian passport or a Canadian Travel Document (for PRs or citizens, respectively), so the airline can run that document id into the system.

There is a very specific list of the documents the system will recognize and issue a "Board" response for.

So the primary question here is for CBSA, based on the commercial carrier regulations and the parameters or criteria employed by the CBSA system, NOT the airline. Will a document that suffices to show U.S. PR status (among those listed in the PDI referenced and linked above) generate a Board response even if the traveler is a Canadian? (Should be the same whether the traveler is a Canadian PR or a Canadian citizen.) The referenced PDI makes it appear that the system should generate a "Board" response. But as I previously noted, the range of documents that can be used, as listed, is incongruous with the very limited, specific documents the system otherwise accepts . . . so of course we wonder if the PDI means what it appears to say regarding Canadians with U.S. PR status.

And as noted, what confuses things more is that the airlines can screen and deny passengers boarding even if the CBSA system issues a "Board" response. What I do not know is to what extent airlines are still making personal, individual judgments about this. Until a few years ago it was a question for the airlines, based on airline personnel screening passenger travel documents and applying the commercial carrier regulations, and it appears that to some extent they might still do this on an individual basis.

Which leads to . . . .

So anyone in this situation will be taking [a risk] . . . . And tell us what happens if they decide to chance it.

 

[scylla]

The post by @canuck78 and this last post by @armoured.

The airlines are usually (but not always, which can confuse trying to forecast how things go) only the messenger. CBSA makes the decision. Rather, CBSA's electronic passenger authorization system makes the decision. All the airlines does is enter the respective document identification number/code into the system and the system gives a "Board or No-Board" response.

This is based on the CBSA system recognizing that specific document, for that individual, as authorization, as you say, to "enter" Canada. But having status that authorizes a person to enter Canada is NOT enough. The system only recognizes very specific documents. It will, for example (as we all know), NOT give a "Board" response to a Canadian (with certain exceptions) unless the Canadian presents either a PR card or Canadian passport or a Canadian Travel Document (for PRs or citizens, respectively), so the airline can run that document id into the system.

There is a very specific list of the documents the system will recognize and issue a "Board" response for.

So the primary question here is for CBSA, based on the commercial carrier regulations and the parameters or criteria employed by the CBSA system, NOT the airline. Will a document that suffices to show U.S. PR status (among those listed in the PDI referenced and linked above) generate a Board response even if the traveler is a Canadian? (Should be the same whether the traveler is a Canadian PR or a Canadian citizen.) The referenced PDI makes it appear that the system should generate a "Board" response. But as I previously noted, the range of documents that can be used, as listed, is incongruous with the very limited, specific documents the system otherwise accepts . . . so of course we wonder if the PDI means what it appears to say regarding Canadians with U.S. PR status.

And as noted, what confuses things more is that the airlines can screen and deny passengers boarding even if the CBSA system issues a "Board" response. What I do not know is to what extent airlines are still making personal, individual judgments about this. Until a few years ago it was a question for the airlines, based on airline personnel screening passenger travel documents and applying the commercial carrier regulations, and it appears that to some extent they might still do this on an individual basis.

Which leads to . . . .

You know I have a story about this.

So sometime around 12 (?) years ago when my American citizen husband was a Canadian PR but not yet a Canadian citizen, we were flying back home to Canada from Korea. He produces his US passport at check-in in Incheon and they tell him they are going to deny him boarding. But it's not because they know he's a PR, but rather specifically because he is an American and his travel ends in Canada with no onward journey to the US, and they have no evidence that he is authorized to live in Canada. They keep insisting that his journey cannot end in Canada if he is only traveling on a US passport and we must produce evidence of an onward journey to the US. No problem, we think, just show them the PR card. But then "someone" cannot find his PR card. Then he finally finds it after taking his backpack apart and shows them he is a permanent resident of Canada. But they misread the expiry date on the PR card and tell him the PR card is expired so they won't let him board. After more back and forth and some checks on their computer, they finally agree that his PR card is valid and allow him to board. It was just a little bit stressful. And of course I have no idea what they were or weren't able to see on their computers or whether they contacted CBSA or not.

I think this was the only time he had to show his physical PR card to get on a plane and we travel quite a bit.

 

[dpenabill]

You know I have a story about this.

So sometime around 12 (?) years ago when my American citizen husband was a Canadian PR but not yet a Canadian citizen, we were flying back home to Canada from Korea. He produces his US passport at check-in in Incheon and they tell him they are going to deny him boarding. But it's not because they know he's a PR, but rather specifically because he is an American and his travel ends in Canada with no onward journey to the US, and they have no evidence that he is authorized to live in Canada. They keep insisting that his journey cannot end in Canada if he is only traveling on a US passport and we must produce evidence of an onward journey to the US. No problem, we think, just show them the PR card. But then "someone" cannot find his PR card. Then he finally finds it after taking his backpack apart and shows them he is a permanent resident of Canada. But they misread the expiry date on the PR card and tell him the PR card is expired so they won't let him board. After more back and forth and some checks on their computer, they finally agree that his PR card is valid and allow him to board. It was just a little bit stressful. And of course I have no idea what they were or weren't able to see on their computers or whether they contacted CBSA or not.

I think this was the only time he had to show his physical PR card to get on a plane and we travel quite a bit.

I recall this. Yeah, stuff-happens. And even though the anecdote is dated now (the CBSA board or no-board system is continually improved and it is increasingly what controls), there is a good chance that the location of the departing flight can make a difference. That is, flying from some locations in the world can be quite different than boarding a plane to Canada from the UK or Australia, let alone the U.S.

The real world is rife with wrinkles.

 

[armoured]

I recall this. Yeah, stuff-happens. And even though the anecdote is dated now (the CBSA board or no-board system is continually improved and it is increasingly what controls), there is a good chance that the location of the departing flight can make a difference. That is, flying from some locations in the world can be quite different than boarding a plane to Canada from the UK or Australia, let alone the U.S.

The real world is rife with wrinkles.

Having travelled with those with PRs a fair bit lately, and a spouse who travels more (also PR), your description of the CBSA board/no-board system sounds like someone describing to me a near-future with nice gleaming non-polluting cars and then opening my eyes and watching a diesel truck belch fumes.

Perhaps behind the scenes it does (increasingly?) work like you describe it. But it's hard to believe it is the case when different airlines have different requirements, some use outside providers for document scanning that choke on PR cards and foreign passports (with unhelpful messages like 'speak to a CrapAir employee' which is impossible), etc., etc. Frequently we find some airlines just can't check in foreigners in advance, meaning ... well, I don't know. Perhaps they can only run the board/no-board thing at check-in at the airport - but do they get a response? Is there actually enough time for that?

I've no idea, but I've not much confidence. Perhaps the hit-rate of approvals is 99%, which conveniently covers the vast majority of Canadian, US, visa-waiver citizens and TRV citizens and leaves out (in that measurement) all the difficult cases. I will say this, if the board/no-board system kicks out errors, my impression is that it doesn't kick out many false no-board errors (the type we'd hear people complaining about).

Leaving me to wonder how many false 'board' errors (where it should have told them not to allow boarding) are going on.

No idea. Maybe it does work seamlessly and mostly without errors. It doesn't feel like it from using the system from the other end. Which, granted, could be due to issues with the airlines' interfaces with us, and not an underlying issue with the board/no-board system.

 

[dpenabill]

Having travelled with those with PRs a fair bit lately, and a spouse who travels more (also PR), your description of the CBSA board/no-board system sounds like someone describing to me a near-future with nice gleaming non-polluting cars and then opening my eyes and watching a diesel truck belch fumes.

Perhaps behind the scenes it does (increasingly?) work like you describe it. But it's hard to believe it is the case when different airlines have different requirements, some use outside providers for document scanning that choke on PR cards and foreign passports (with unhelpful messages like 'speak to a CrapAir employee' which is impossible), etc., etc. Frequently we find some airlines just can't check in foreigners in advance, meaning ... well, I don't know. Perhaps they can only run the board/no-board thing at check-in at the airport - but do they get a response? Is there actually enough time for that?

I've no idea, but I've not much confidence. Perhaps the hit-rate of approvals is 99%, which conveniently covers the vast majority of Canadian, US, visa-waiver citizens and TRV citizens and leaves out (in that measurement) all the difficult cases. I will say this, if the board/no-board system kicks out errors, my impression is that it doesn't kick out many false no-board errors (the type we'd hear people complaining about).

Leaving me to wonder how many false 'board' errors (where it should have told them not to allow boarding) are going on.

No idea. Maybe it does work seamlessly and mostly without errors. It doesn't feel like it from using the system from the other end. Which, granted, could be due to issues with the airlines' interfaces with us, and not an underlying issue with the board/no-board system.

Yeah, the real world is rife with wrinkles.

The CBSA system gives the airlines authority to issue a boarding pass. Even with a boarding pass in hand, travelers and their travel documents are typically still screened further before actual boarding. The thing about screening passengers boarding flights is that there is more to that than just complying with the carrier regulations governing who the airlines can transport to Canada. In addition to the morass of identity and security checks, many countries also impose exit restrictions. In conjunction with variations in travel documents, even passports, airline staffing issues (like every other business these days, they tend to not pay well enough to adequately assure competency), and just the sheer variety of people going through the checks for international flights, there is a plethora of possibilities for stuff-happens, ranging from the minor to the seriously inconvenient. My spouse will not fly anymore.

The CBSA system is not designed to catch every instance of a potentially inadmissible-to-Canada traveler. As @Ponga noted, it is singularly focused on whether the traveler has status authorizing entry into Canada, based on very specific documents (again, for some reason I cannot put my cursor on the CBSA list of documents), which does not guarantee the traveler will get permission to actually enter Canada when they arrive. Canadians will, of course, both PRs and citizens, but that is still subject to Port-of-Entry screening to verify the traveler's identity and Canadian status.

 

[canuck78]

Think we all have concluded that verifying with CBSA is the only way to know whether valid PR card will be required. Would encourage OP to get the answer in writing if possible.

 

[Wacky1.nash]

It's a question for the airline, NOT CBSA.
CBSA is the `bouncer' that determines if a person can actually ENTER Canada; the commercial carrier just delivers them to CBSA. LOL!

This is precisely right. However, the airlines base their decisions on who to board on govt regulations. So far unable to determine what these regulations are and which is the body that governs them.

 

[Wacky1.nash]

I haven't read everyone's input on this thread yet, and there seems to be a really good, in-depth discussion going on. I skimmed and have some thoughts on some of the points and anecdotes raised, but for now, I just want to give an update of what I learned calling some airlines and CBSA.

1. Air Canada on two separate calls (talking to two separate agents) unequivocally confirmed to me that me being a PR does NOT matter. They will board me so long as I can produce a valid passport (whatever country, doesn't matter) and a valid US LPR (green-card).

2. Porter Air was difficult. Called twice. The first agent seemed to have no idea what the requirements are, and insisted I would be denied boarding because I am an Indian citizen (kept going back to that). The second told me they cannot advise on the documents required to board the plane and that I should check with CBSA (seems silly to me, because at the airport the airline does have to make a decision on who to board based on documents provided). When pushed they said whatever the CBSA entry requirements are, the same would apply for boarding, which of-course doesn't help me much.

3. CBSA claimed they could not comment on the documents required to board, that would depend on the airline, and I should check with them. I called twice, one told me I would be granted entry based on my green-card and Indian passport DESPITE being a Canadian PR (which I don't believe is right), the second said CBSA would check if my Canadian PR is valid at the point of entry, and I can present expired PR card / COPR.