Arriving with barely 730 days - similar to RedDevil666's post "PR Obligations - cutting it close"

[waxweasel]

Hi experts, I'm approaching the point where I have no choice or option left, so desperately seeking some help or guidance!

For whatever reasons (mostly being a disorganised and shambolic person), I am coming up upon the 3 year mark since my landing date on November 26, 2015, and have not yet moved to Canada. I am planning to move over - DEFINITELY - around November 6 or 7 this year (actually looking at flights right now), and have a couple of questions around how I will make up the 730 days PR obligation.

[It's a bit of a similar situation to RedDevil666's thread, except that mine's even worse and tighter, in that I "landed" in Canada 2 months before him, and am aiming to return in that first week of Nov 2018 too ]

Basically, I am wondering about a few things, since I desperately need every last day to count for me! AND I will have to leave Canada again at some stage next year for a week or so for a family wedding.
So here are my questions:

1. I landed in Canada on November 26,2015 and left again on December 15. Does that mean I have already accrued those 19 days as part of my 730? Even if I was just crashing on a friend's couch and bumming around for 2.5 weeks? I have no proof of doing anything in Canada during those 19 days I was there, other than my PR "landing stamp" in my passport nand my entry stamp to the US on Dec 15,2015 (showing I had left Canada, obviously). So does that mean I already have accrued 19/730 days?

2. Also, if I "landed" at 11pm on the 26th Nov, 2015, does that day still count as 1 day "in Canada"? Even if that day lasted just 1 hour? lol!
And I left Canada early in the morning on Dec 15, 2015, again, does that still count as a "day in Canada" ?
Ie: Do the days that you arrive in and depart Canada still count as whole days "in Canada" ?

3. On November 26 this year it will be exactly 3 years since I landed in 2015, therefore exactly 2 years that I'll have to be physically present in Canada - to make up the 730 days since 5 years of landing, by Nov 26, 2020. So if I arrive in Canada on November 7 this year, that means that it will be 19 days until I hit the 3 year mark (with 2 to go) exactly! So does that mean I'll have a buffer or 19 days, plus the 19 days I was there in 2015? ie. 38 days buffer in total on top of the mandatory 730? (And still possibly have room to spare another week or two to be outside of Canada again for that wedding next year?)

4. Since I have no way to prove my 19 days in Canada after my initial landing in 2015 (other than the stamps in my passport), and assuming I won't be settled, in a job, having rented a place, established,etc within the first 19 days after I return ( for my 2nd "landing") around Nov 6 or 7 this year... will passports stamps and border records be enough on their own to prove my physical presence? If not, what else can I possibly come up with? Assuming I'm not going to have payslips or rent receipt covering the initial period, as I'll probably stay with friends for my first few weeks while job and house-hunting.
I did read somewhere that even withstanding your own burden of proof, that Canada Border Services can just download your entry/exit record automatically, to tell if you were there for 730 days or not. So could I just leave it in their hands to obtain the records they need of my arrivals/departures from the country>?

5. My PR Card itself has a Feb 5,2021 expiry date, so surely ON Nov 26,2020 (5 years after initial landing, with 730 days technically under my belt ) I can apply for a PR card renewal, and still make it in time with 2+ months to go before the actual card expires on Feb 5,2021, right?


** Just to clarify, I do 100% aim to be there around Nov 6/7 this year, AND stay permanently for the next 2+ years (the last 2 years of the 5 years since my Nov 26,2015 landing date), and establish my life there. And from Nov 6/7 this year until the 5-year date of my landing on Nov 26,2015, I will have 730 days remaining + 19 days (from Nov 7 to 26 this year) +19 days (which I'm assuming I have already technically accrued from landing in 2015) = 768 days ? Inclusive of a 38 day total buffer?
Do I have this right? Or is there a misconception somewhere?
I know it's cutting it EXTREMELY fine, but technically, even arriving with 731 days would meet the requirement,to my thinking!? I know little to no buffer is not ideal, even dangerous, but surely it's still doable?


And advice or clarifications much appreciated!
Cheers guys!!

WW.

 

[dpenabill]

Hi experts, I'm approaching the point where I have no choice or option left, so desperately seeking some help or guidance!

For whatever reasons (mostly being a disorganised and shambolic person), I am coming up upon the 3 year mark since my landing date on November 26, 2015, and have not yet moved to Canada. I am planning to move over - DEFINITELY - around November 6 or 7 this year (actually looking at flights right now), and have a couple of questions around how I will make up the 730 days PR obligation.

[It's a bit of a similar situation to RedDevil666's thread, except that mine's even worse and tighter, in that I "landed" in Canada 2 months before him, and am aiming to return in that first week of Nov 2018 too ]

Basically, I am wondering about a few things, since I desperately need every last day to count for me! AND I will have to leave Canada again at some stage next year for a week or so for a family wedding.
So here are my questions:

1. I landed in Canada on November 26,2015 and left again on December 15. Does that mean I have already accrued those 19 days as part of my 730? Even if I was just crashing on a friend's couch and bumming around for 2.5 weeks? I have no proof of doing anything in Canada during those 19 days I was there, other than my PR "landing stamp" in my passport nand my entry stamp to the US on Dec 15,2015 (showing I had left Canada, obviously). So does that mean I already have accrued 19/730 days?

2. Also, if I "landed" at 11pm on the 26th Nov, 2015, does that day still count as 1 day "in Canada"? Even if that day lasted just 1 hour? lol!
And I left Canada early in the morning on Dec 15, 2015, again, does that still count as a "day in Canada" ?
Ie: Do the days that you arrive in and depart Canada still count as whole days "in Canada" ?

3. On November 26 this year it will be exactly 3 years since I landed in 2015, therefore exactly 2 years that I'll have to be physically present in Canada - to make up the 730 days since 5 years of landing, by Nov 26, 2020. So if I arrive in Canada on November 7 this year, that means that it will be 19 days until I hit the 3 year mark (with 2 to go) exactly! So does that mean I'll have a buffer or 19 days, plus the 19 days I was there in 2015? ie. 38 days buffer in total on top of the mandatory 730? (And still possibly have room to spare another week or two to be outside of Canada again for that wedding next year?)

4. Since I have no way to prove my 19 days in Canada after my initial landing in 2015 (other than the stamps in my passport), and assuming I won't be settled, in a job, having rented a place, established,etc within the first 19 days after I return ( for my 2nd "landing") around Nov 6 or 7 this year... will passports stamps and border records be enough on their own to prove my physical presence? If not, what else can I possibly come up with? Assuming I'm not going to have payslips or rent receipt covering the initial period, as I'll probably stay with friends for my first few weeks while job and house-hunting.
I did read somewhere that even withstanding your own burden of proof, that Canada Border Services can just download your entry/exit record automatically, to tell if you were there for 730 days or not. So could I just leave it in their hands to obtain the records they need of my arrivals/departures from the country>?

5. My PR Card itself has a Feb 5,2021 expiry date, so surely ON Nov 26,2020 (5 years after initial landing, with 730 days technically under my belt ) I can apply for a PR card renewal, and still make it in time with 2+ months to go before the actual card expires on Feb 5,2021, right?


** Just to clarify, I do 100% aim to be there around Nov 6/7 this year, AND stay permanently for the next 2+ years (the last 2 years of the 5 years since my Nov 26,2015 landing date), and establish my life there. And from Nov 6/7 this year until the 5-year date of my landing on Nov 26,2015, I will have 730 days remaining + 19 days (from Nov 7 to 26 this year) +19 days (which I'm assuming I have already technically accrued from landing in 2015) = 768 days ? Inclusive of a 38 day total buffer?
Do I have this right? Or is there a misconception somewhere?
I know it's cutting it EXTREMELY fine, but technically, even arriving with 731 days would meet the requirement,to my thinking!? I know little to no buffer is not ideal, even dangerous, but surely it's still doable?


And advice or clarifications much appreciated!
Cheers guys!!

WW.

I am NOT an expert but I can offer some observations:

Recognizing and assessing RISKS is NOT about definitive calculations. Risk is largely about recognizing that people in almost the exact same situation can encounter different outcomes. Some is due to chance. More is due to individual contingencies. The variables are many and oft times complex. Precise calculations tend to be superfluous.

If one or five days makes the difference TECHNICALLY, the practical risks loom far, far more influentially, and in assessing those risks one or five days tends to have little significance. (If a PR's situation puts him in a scenario where he is in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation by less than a month, say, and would need to stay in Canada for the next two years to stay in compliance, whether it is five days or twenty-five days hardly matters if there is an emergency compelling the PR to spend three or six months abroad.)


In my observations about cutting-it-close in other topics I have intended to highlight the different kinds of risk.

Kinds of risk:
-- Risk of being reported (and subsequent risks of also losing appeal and thereby losing PR status)
-- Practical risks that lead to problems, like encountering unexpected emergencies which results in an absence and unexpected breach of the PR Residency Obligation
-- Risk of Secondary Review or other delays when applying for a new PR Card
-- Risk of losing PR card while abroad, having to apply for a PR Travel Document, and if past the three year anniversary of landing, having to prove compliance with the PR RO

As long as the PR is in fact in compliance with the PR RO, the risks of being reported are low . . . NO risk at all prior to the third year anniversary of landing, and less risk during the first five years compared to later. Proof of compliance should preclude being reported. At the least, proof of compliance should prevail in an appeal, if necessary.

BUT PR's cutting-it-close nonetheless face practical risks. Like encountering an emergency which compels the PR to go abroad and remain abroad for an amount of time that leads to a breach of the PR RO. Like encountering Secondary Review when they apply for a new PR card, which could mean traveling abroad can be inconvenient or even risky (having to obtain a PR Travel Document to fly back to Canada, and dealing with the presumption against status).


Risk of being Reported:

It is NOT as if there is much likelihood a returning PR will be reported at the PoE because the PR is one day or one week, or perhaps even a full month short of compliance with the PR Residency Obligation. The longer the PR has been abroad and the more the PR is short of compliance, the greater the risk of being reported. PRs with a valid PR card have fairly low risk of being reported so long as it is not more or less obvious they could be in breach (an absence for three years, for example, obviously means a breach).

For any PR in breach of the PR RO there is a RISK of being reported. For sure. But like most risks, it is a highly variable risk subject to many variables. Obviously, among the biggest, most influential variables, is the extent of the breach AND how apparent it is there has been a breach. Again, the more short of the RO the PR is, the greater the risk. The longer the most recent absence, the greater the risk. Among other variables.

My sense is that PRs still within the first five years since landing, and arriving at a PoE with a valid PR card that was issued soon after landing and which is still valid for two or more additional years (from date of arrival), have a rather LOW RISK of being reported upon arrival at the PoE.

That is subject to some caveats: If the PR has been absent a full three years or more, that probably increases the risk significantly (because that length of an absence definitively constitutes a breach of the PR RO). Indeed, PRs with a valid PR card generally have relatively LESS RISK of being reported at the PoE so long as their most recent absence has been well less than three years (again, recognizing the risk increases the closer to the three years it is) and the PR card is valid for a year or more still (again, the risk increases the closer it gets to the card's expiration date), and otherwise there is not an obvious pattern of absences indicating the PR is in breach (among officially reported cases, it is apparent that CBSA has recognized patterns like a PR visiting Canada for brief periods and more or less OBVIOUSLY not complying with the PR RO).

 

[dpenabill]

. . . continued post . . .

Relative Practical Risks for PR cutting-it-close:

EXAMPLE: Consider a PR who has spent only a few days in Canada and who is arriving at a PoE shortly BEFORE the third year anniversary of the day the PR landed.

This PR has NO worry about being reported for a breach of the PR Residency Obligation upon arrival. It is NOT physically possible for this PR to have breached the PR RO yet. The PR might be given a caution or admonition, a REMINDER of sorts, about needing to comply with the PR RO, but there should be NO risk of being reported. The PR is good to go (meaning to enter Canada), and if the PR then stays for the next two years, the PR is in RO compliance.

While there is NO risk of being reported upon arrival at the PoE, there are real RISKS this PR has, related to cutting-it-close. Two are obvious:

-- the risk the PR may need to go abroad within the next two years (business or family emergency, say), which would lead to a breach of the PR RO; amount of risk will vary a great deal according to the personal circumstances of the individual PR
-- the risk the PR encounters some delay and fails to arrive in Canada BEFORE the third year anniversary (volcano eruption in Iceland day before departure causes Trans-Atlantic flights to be cancelled for weeks; car accident on the way to airport; PR loses PR card day before departure; food poisoning the morning before the flight departs; scheduled settlement of business matter postponed), which would lead to a breach of the PR RO; here too, the amount of risk will vary a great deal according to the personal circumstances of the individual PR​

It should be obvious these risks are not dependent on a precise calculation of days.


Some particular observations:

I did read somewhere that even withstanding your own burden of proof, that Canada Border Services can just download your entry/exit record automatically, to tell if you were there for 730 days or not. So could I just leave it in their hands to obtain the records they need of my arrivals/departures from the country>?

Reminder: proof of date of entry ONLY PROVES the person entered Canada that day. Does not prove how many days the PR stayed in Canada.

There is a widespread misconception about counting days between a known date of entry and the next REPORTED date of exit. It is correct that the days in-between these two are typically, usually, INFERRED to be days in Canada and thus counted. Make no mistake (recognizing however many do), this is an INFERENCE, and is subject to supporting information and evidence if CBSA or IRCC have any reason to question the possibility (emphasis on mere POSSIBILITY) the PR was outside Canada during any of those days.

Here's a clue: no objective corroboration of actual presence in Canada during those days, that raises the POSSIBILITY the PR was not actually present in Canada those days . . . which can lead to IRCC requiring the PR to affirmatively prove actual presence those days.

Here is another clue: if the PR's account of travel days is NOT the same as what is indicated in CBSA entry records, IRCC will conclude the PR is NOT an accurate reporter of actual facts. How seriously compromised the PR's credibility is depends on many things. Extent of discrepancy is a big factor. But there are other potentially big factors as well.

IRCC looks to the CBSA records (mainly the records of entry, but to some extent potentially exit information as well) to check the veracity of the PR's accounting. NOT to replace or supplement the PR's accounting. The burden of accounting and proving is solidly on the PR.

So NO, IRCC will NOT do it for the PR. It is a PR's responsibility and burden to ACCURATELY report all absences from Canada.

And, notwithstanding the usual inference of presence between a known date of entry and next reported date of exit, PRs can be required to prove actual presence for the days in-between.

Which leads back to the whole cutting-it-close risk assessment: The PR who is not cutting-it-close does not face the same degree of challenge proving actual presence in Canada long enough to meet the PR RO.

There are nuances. Credibility looms large. Credibility of the PR. Credibility of individual claims. For example, your reference to 19 days in Canada when you landed. Standing alone that probably is credible despite lack of corroborating evidence. It makes sense. Moreover, it makes sense you cannot provide a permanent residential address or employment during that brief period. There is probably no reason to doubt it. And in the big scheme of things, CBSA and IRCC are not out to so strictly enforce the PR RO that it will reach a negative decision based on this detail in particular.



PR card renewal:

The risk of a referral to Secondary Review appears to be high for any PR who applies with less than 850 to 900 or so days actual presence. Obviously, if you return to Canada with, say, a month to spare (including the 19 days from when you landed), you will not have even 800 days actual presence until sometime AFTER the date your PR card expires (recognizing it does not expire until approximately two months after the fifth year anniversary of when you landed, and recognizing that as of the fifth year anniversary of the date you landed the 19 days you had at the beginning start to drop out of the five year calculation).

SR can take many months to a year, or even a bit more. Travel while PR card is in SR is NOT restricted but can be inconvenient. The PR will need a PR Travel Document to fly back to Canada. The PR without a valid PR card faces the rebuttable presumption that he or she does NOT have valid PR status.