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Applying for PR card renewal 6 months in advance

vdevil786

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Hi All,
If i apply for my PR card renewal 6 months in advance, will the time remaining(6 months) will be taken into consideration as time spent inside canada and will be added to my PR obligation? how it works , need some explanation, thanks in advance.
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
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No, they only count time in Canada up until the point that you sign the application.

(If they took the rest of the time into consideration people would try to renew their cards the day they got their new ones...)
 

Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
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Just to add looking ahead the same principal applies to a citizenship application, only the time upto the date an application is signed counts not the time after whilst waiting for the application to be processed. And no you cannot post date any application signature in either case.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
4,604
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Hi All,
If i apply for my PR card renewal 6 months in advance, will the time remaining(6 months) will be taken into consideration as time spent inside canada and will be added to my PR obligation? how it works , need some explanation, thanks in advance.
As a practical matter, it probably is NOT a good idea for you to make the PR card application until . . . well probably should wait as long as you can. You are at risk for non-routine processing. If you make your PR application before you are SOLIDLY in compliance with the RO based on actual days in Canada, the risk is considerably higher, and more to the point, probably very much at risk for the longer version of Secondary Review which can easily add six months to a year to the processing timeline (and maybe significantly longer in the current situation).

NOT much point in applying sooner if that means it will take a YEAR longer to get the PR card.

HOWEVER, as a technical matter I disagree with with the others. The calculation of RO compliance is prescribed by statute. If the date for calculating compliance is BEFORE the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, the PR gets credit for days IN Canada up to the date of the examination PLUS days left on the calendar to the fifth year anniversary. Section 28(2)(b)(i) in particular. see https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-7.html#h-274598 where it states:

"it is sufficient for a permanent resident to demonstrate at examination . . . if they have been a permanent resident for less than five years, that they will be able to meet the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately after they became a permanent resident"​

Thus, for example, to the extent that IRCC does determine RO compliance based on the date the PR card application is made, the statute mandates including credit for remaining days until the fifth year anniversary.

But that is not the full story. That just covers the INITIAL calculation, based on the date the PR card application is made.

And cutting-it-close, which relying on credit for days left on the calendar is indeed very much cutting-it-close, tends to invite questions, including questions about the accuracy and completeness of the PR's claims as to days actually IN Canada.

So it can get complicated.

IRCC can, and in cases where it appears possible the PR falls short of RO compliance it will issue RQ-related requests to PRs who have a PR card application in process, AND/OR schedule a Residency Examination interview. BOTH of these can result in separate RO compliance examinations based on their respective dates. Thus, for example, if a PR with a PR card application in process is scheduled for an interview, the date of the interview sets the relevant date for calculating RO compliance.

Moreover, when the PR is cutting-it-close, that tends to increase the RISK of non-routine processing . . . which can be the RQ-related processes I just mentioned, but as I previously referenced, and which tends to be more common, the PR card application may be referred to Secondary Review. The timeline for SR for many ranged to a YEAR plus some BEFORE things got shut down for Covid-19. No idea how long SR is going to be going forward for the next year or two. As previously mentioned, NOT much point in applying sooner if that means it will take a YEAR longer, and perhaps more than a YEAR longer, to get the PR card.

As I noted, compliance with the PR RO can be examined relative to various dates when a PR makes the PR card application. Thus, for example, I particularly disagree with this:
. . . only the time up to the date an application is signed counts.
For one thing, the applicable regulations specifically address which days do NOT count, and the only days that do not count are days AFTER a 44(1) Report has been issued OR a visa office has denied a PR TD on the grounds the PR failed to comply with the RO. see Regulartion 62(1) IRPA regulations at https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-15.html#docCont

Which means even if the PR was short of compliance on the date the PR card application was made, if no decision is made until a later date, the PR gets credit for days in Canada after applying and up to the date that a formal determination is being made. BUT here too, this is of little comfort or aid PRACTICALLY because in these cases the likelihood of a long non-routine processing time looms large. Here too, it is foolish to apply so soon for a PR card only to have the application wallowing in SR for the next year or so.
 

vdevil786

Star Member
Jun 28, 2014
192
9
Category........
Visa Office......
London
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2171
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
23-07-2014
As a practical matter, it probably is NOT a good idea for you to make the PR card application until . . . well probably should wait as long as you can. You are at risk for non-routine processing. If you make your PR application before you are SOLIDLY in compliance with the RO based on actual days in Canada, the risk is considerably higher, and more to the point, probably very much at risk for the longer version of Secondary Review which can easily add six months to a year to the processing timeline (and maybe significantly longer in the current situation).

NOT much point in applying sooner if that means it will take a YEAR longer to get the PR card.

HOWEVER, as a technical matter I disagree with with the others. The calculation of RO compliance is prescribed by statute. If the date for calculating compliance is BEFORE the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing, the PR gets credit for days IN Canada up to the date of the examination PLUS days left on the calendar to the fifth year anniversary. Section 28(2)(b)(i) in particular. see https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-7.html#h-274598 where it states:

"it is sufficient for a permanent resident to demonstrate at examination . . . if they have been a permanent resident for less than five years, that they will be able to meet the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately after they became a permanent resident"​

Thus, for example, to the extent that IRCC does determine RO compliance based on the date the PR card application is made, the statute mandates including credit for remaining days until the fifth year anniversary.

But that is not the full story. That just covers the INITIAL calculation, based on the date the PR card application is made.

And cutting-it-close, which relying on credit for days left on the calendar is indeed very much cutting-it-close, tends to invite questions, including questions about the accuracy and completeness of the PR's claims as to days actually IN Canada.

So it can get complicated.

IRCC can, and in cases where it appears possible the PR falls short of RO compliance it will issue RQ-related requests to PRs who have a PR card application in process, AND/OR schedule a Residency Examination interview. BOTH of these can result in separate RO compliance examinations based on their respective dates. Thus, for example, if a PR with a PR card application in process is scheduled for an interview, the date of the interview sets the relevant date for calculating RO compliance.

Moreover, when the PR is cutting-it-close, that tends to increase the RISK of non-routine processing . . . which can be the RQ-related processes I just mentioned, but as I previously referenced, and which tends to be more common, the PR card application may be referred to Secondary Review. The timeline for SR for many ranged to a YEAR plus some BEFORE things got shut down for Covid-19. No idea how long SR is going to be going forward for the next year or two. As previously mentioned, NOT much point in applying sooner if that means it will take a YEAR longer, and perhaps more than a YEAR longer, to get the PR card.

As I noted, compliance with the PR RO can be examined relative to various dates when a PR makes the PR card application. Thus, for example, I particularly disagree with this:


For one thing, the applicable regulations specifically address which days do NOT count, and the only days that do not count are days AFTER a 44(1) Report has been issued OR a visa office has denied a PR TD on the grounds the PR failed to comply with the RO. see Regulartion 62(1) IRPA regulations at https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-15.html#docCont

Which means even if the PR was short of compliance on the date the PR card application was made, if no decision is made until a later date, the PR gets credit for days in Canada after applying and up to the date that a formal determination is being made. BUT here too, this is of little comfort or aid PRACTICALLY because in these cases the likelihood of a long non-routine processing time looms large. Here too, it is foolish to apply so soon for a PR card only to have the application wallowing in SR for the next year or so.
Thanks for the detailed response, actually i am planning for vacations in december 2020, my 2 years RO obligation will be completed in Nov 2020, Also my PR card is expiring in Feb 2021, so was thinking if possible i will apply for PR renewal application which will be processed max till dec and then i will leave for vacations. this was i will have a new PR card so in case due to lock down etc if the flights are stopped or any other restrictions then i will have enough time .
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,009
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Canada
Thanks for the detailed response, actually i am planning for vacations in december 2020, my 2 years RO obligation will be completed in Nov 2020, Also my PR card is expiring in Feb 2021, so was thinking if possible i will apply for PR renewal application which will be processed max till dec and then i will leave for vacations. this was i will have a new PR card so in case due to lock down etc if the flights are stopped or any other restrictions then i will have enough time .
It's hard to imagine what the PR card renewal timeline will be in December, or if you should even be vacationing outside Canada then.
 

SecularFirst

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Nov 21, 2015
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Let’s say someone finishes 1150 days in Canada in 3 years straight, 45 days more than 1095 needed for Citizenship requirement. Can apply the Citizenship and leave Canada while application is being processed? Will they be granted citizenship? Or one has to be in Canada for the processing of citizenship application? Will they start deducting the days which are spent outside after finishing 1150 days and before the actual processing starts? Thanks.
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
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Let’s say someone finishes 1150 days in Canada in 3 years straight, 45 days more than 1095 needed for Citizenship requirement. Can apply the Citizenship and leave Canada while application is being processed? Will they be granted citizenship? Or one has to be in Canada for the processing of citizenship application? Will they start deducting the days which are spent outside after finishing 1150 days and before the actual processing starts? Thanks.
This has nothing to do with the initial question of renewing PR cards early. You should really start your own thread instead of hijacking one.,
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
4,604
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Thanks for the detailed response, actually i am planning for vacations in december 2020, my 2 years RO obligation will be completed in Nov 2020, Also my PR card is expiring in Feb 2021, so was thinking if possible i will apply for PR renewal application which will be processed max till dec and then i will leave for vacations. this was i will have a new PR card so in case due to lock down etc if the flights are stopped or any other restrictions then i will have enough time .
Based on the dates you have reported, this is NOT a good idea. Especially this year. Your risk of non-routine processing resulting in it taking longer to process your PR card application is high.

REMEMBER: in the best of times, PRs cutting-it-close are ALWAYS at risk for something happening that delays or interferes with their return to Canada. (This forum is rife with tales of woe told by PRs who planned this or that, or counted on this or that, and real life did not cooperate.) This year that risk is likely to remain higher than usual. If you get stuck abroad without a valid PR card, for example, you would need to apply for a PR Travel Document to return to Canada. If you need to do that, there is a PRESUMPTION that your PR status is NOT valid. That presumption can be readily overcome with proof of actual presence in Canada, but make no mistake, if the PR falls short of PROVING actual presence in Canada not only can IRCC deny a PR TD application but is actually obligated to do so.

As a Denzel Washington character in a popular cop movie phrased it: "it's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

And this is also true at the PoE when a PR returns to Canada from abroad. Less risk than a PR TD application, and the PR must still be allowed into Canada even if the PoE officials are not persuaded the PR has met the burden of proving RO compliance. But PRs cutting-it-close are at risk for RO compliance questioning at the PoE upon arrival and the burden is on the PR to satisfy the officials they have met the RO. And, actually, this is true even if the PR is presenting a brand new PR card (as discussed in other topic, validity dates of PR card are NOT at all relevant in RO compliance calculations).



There is NO such thing as "completing" the 2 year RO obligation. Not sure you have been reading responses to your queries if you think that is how it works.

The RO obligation is continuous. Each day is a new and different calculation. You may begin building a margin over the MINIMUM, but you personally have a good while to go before you build a margin that is not in the cutting-it-close range. Some look at 800 or so days IN Canada within the relevant five years as enough to no longer be cutting-it-close BUT it warrants remembering that IF there is any question about where a person was during a period of time, the normal, REASONABLE inference is they were likely in the location where they were most of the time . . . so until a PR has been IN Canada more than 930 days or so, within the last five years, the PR has been OUTSIDE Canada more than IN, and thus if there is any question about where the PR was during a period of time, again the normal and REASONABLE inference is the PR was probably OUTSIDE Canada. This can increase the evidentiary hurdle for proving presence in Canada.

Remember, for example, if you are outside Canada between December 3rd (which is, as I recall you saying, is the anniversary of your date of landing) and the following two weeks, you will be LOSING days in your RO calculation. The days you were IN Canada in December 2015 will NO LONGER COUNT. (As I recall, I previously mentioned that if you are IN Canada during that period of time, your RO calculation will remain the same as each day IN Canada is offset by a day five years ago that no longer counts).

I realize more than a few look at being in Canada long enough to build a margin over the MINIMUM, so they can go abroad without fear of falling short, as "completing" their obligation. But that approach tends to overlook the practical implications of actually proving compliance, which is ALWAYS the PR's burden. Neither IRCC nor CBSA have crystal balls. They cannot know for certain how many days a PR was IN or OUTSIDE Canada. The risk of elevated skepticism increases the more the PR is cutting-it-close. You will be in that cutting-it-close range for quite a long while. The price of delaying coming to Canada to settle so long after landing.
 

vdevil786

Star Member
Jun 28, 2014
192
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Category........
Visa Office......
London
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2171
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Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
23-07-2014
Based on the dates you have reported, this is NOT a good idea. Especially this year. Your risk of non-routine processing resulting in it taking longer to process your PR card application is high.

REMEMBER: in the best of times, PRs cutting-it-close are ALWAYS at risk for something happening that delays or interferes with their return to Canada. (This forum is rife with tales of woe told by PRs who planned this or that, or counted on this or that, and real life did not cooperate.) This year that risk is likely to remain higher than usual. If you get stuck abroad without a valid PR card, for example, you would need to apply for a PR Travel Document to return to Canada. If you need to do that, there is a PRESUMPTION that your PR status is NOT valid. That presumption can be readily overcome with proof of actual presence in Canada, but make no mistake, if the PR falls short of PROVING actual presence in Canada not only can IRCC deny a PR TD application but is actually obligated to do so.

As a Denzel Washington character in a popular cop movie phrased it: "it's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

And this is also true at the PoE when a PR returns to Canada from abroad. Less risk than a PR TD application, and the PR must still be allowed into Canada even if the PoE officials are not persuaded the PR has met the burden of proving RO compliance. But PRs cutting-it-close are at risk for RO compliance questioning at the PoE upon arrival and the burden is on the PR to satisfy the officials they have met the RO. And, actually, this is true even if the PR is presenting a brand new PR card (as discussed in other topic, validity dates of PR card are NOT at all relevant in RO compliance calculations).



There is NO such thing as "completing" the 2 year RO obligation. Not sure you have been reading responses to your queries if you think that is how it works.

The RO obligation is continuous. Each day is a new and different calculation. You may begin building a margin over the MINIMUM, but you personally have a good while to go before you build a margin that is not in the cutting-it-close range. Some look at 800 or so days IN Canada within the relevant five years as enough to no longer be cutting-it-close BUT it warrants remembering that IF there is any question about where a person was during a period of time, the normal, REASONABLE inference is they were likely in the location where they were most of the time . . . so until a PR has been IN Canada more than 930 days or so, within the last five years, the PR has been OUTSIDE Canada more than IN, and thus if there is any question about where the PR was during a period of time, again the normal and REASONABLE inference is the PR was probably OUTSIDE Canada. This can increase the evidentiary hurdle for proving presence in Canada.

Remember, for example, if you are outside Canada between December 3rd (which is, as I recall you saying, is the anniversary of your date of landing) and the following two weeks, you will be LOSING days in your RO calculation. The days you were IN Canada in December 2015 will NO LONGER COUNT. (As I recall, I previously mentioned that if you are IN Canada during that period of time, your RO calculation will remain the same as each day IN Canada is offset by a day five years ago that no longer counts).

I realize more than a few look at being in Canada long enough to build a margin over the MINIMUM, so they can go abroad without fear of falling short, as "completing" their obligation. But that approach tends to overlook the practical implications of actually proving compliance, which is ALWAYS the PR's burden. Neither IRCC nor CBSA have crystal balls. They cannot know for certain how many days a PR was IN or OUTSIDE Canada. The risk of elevated skepticism increases the more the PR is cutting-it-close. You will be in that cutting-it-close range for quite a long while. The price of delaying coming to Canada to settle so long after landing.
Yes but even if they dont count days i spent in Dec 2015 still in Nov 15 2020 my 2 years Inside Canada will be completed, as last time i landed on 15 nov 2018 and i am still in Canada. Any how my PR card renewal date is 5 Feb 2021, what if i apply for PR card renewal in first week of Dec 2020, (completing more than 730 days) and leave Canada using my current PR card for one month and then return back to Canada in second week of Jan 2021 , would it be fine?
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,009
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Canada
Yes but even if they dont count days i spent in Dec 2015 still in Nov 15 2020 my 2 years Inside Canada will be completed, as last time i landed on 15 nov 2018 and i am still in Canada. Any how my PR card renewal date is 5 Feb 2021, what if i apply for PR card renewal in first week of Dec 2020, (completing more than 730 days) and leave Canada using my current PR card for one month and then return back to Canada in second week of Jan 2021 , would it be fine?
It's hard to say. What if they process the PR card renewal quickly? What if a third coronavirus wave strikes and you cannot return?
 

vdevil786

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Jun 28, 2014
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It's hard to say. What if they process the PR card renewal quickly? What if a third coronavirus wave strikes and you cannot return?
then after completing more then 730 days i.e. i will travel after 3rd Dec and will try to return in Jan and then in Feb 2021 i can apply for PR renewal in case there is a travel restriction and i am unable to return to Canada before the expiration of my PR card then i can apply for PRTD as i have already completed more then 730 days .
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
4,604
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. . . what if i apply for PR card renewal in first week of Dec 2020, (completing more than 730 days) and leave Canada using my current PR card for one month and then return back to Canada in second week of Jan 2021 , would it be fine?
Yes, EVENTUALLY. But again, why rush to apply for a new PR card if that results in Secondary Review and not getting a new card until . . . maybe 2022? That's not a typo. I do mean 2022.

Your risk of being Reported in the course of processing your PR card application is LOW.

There is almost NO risk the PR card application will be "denied."

So yeah, EVENTUALLY you will be fine, if by "fine" you mean you will not lose PR status and will eventually be issued a new PR card. Again, EVENTUALLY, as in maybe a YEAR plus some after making the application.


Traveling abroad in the meantime is a separate matter, with its own risks. For a PR cutting-it-so-close as you are, the risks are real. Especially if for some reason your return to Canada is delayed and you need to apply for a PR Travel Document. If that happens, and this is not just about the threat of travel restrictions related to Covid-19, you will indeed be relying on proving your presence in Canada. Just the objective fact that you have been in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years, and indeed within the preceding two years plus a bit, is some insurance but NOT a lot.

The main risks include what @k.h.p. and I have referenced more than once, and that is some contingency that interferes with your planned return to Canada. Stuff Happens. This year illustrates this big time. But as I previously mentioned, this forum is rife with tales of woe told by PRs whose plans ran into this or that real life event knocking things off track. Car crash injuries. Sudden illnesses. In the past even volcanoes have interrupted flights to North America delaying travel. And if you end up needing to apply for a PR Travel Document from abroad, again that triggers the PRESUMPTION that you do not have valid PR status. More clearly putting the burden on you to prove the days you were in Canada. And to do so in the context of having been OUTSIDE Canada more than IN Canada, so the normal, REASONABLE inference is that you were probably outside Canada during any period of time you do not objectively document actual presence in Canada.

There is a tendency among some PRs to put too much weight on the inference of presence between a known date of entry and the next reported date of exit. If IRCC has no reason to question the PR's actual presence, yes, that is the usual inference. BUT if and when IRCC is more closely questioning the proof of actual presence in Canada, that inference carries less weight and absent direct proof of actual presence for the days in-between, this can be given rather little or no weight.

But sure, you can rely on your proof, that it will be sufficient to persuade a total stranger bureaucrat you were in fact present in Canada when you report you were and thus have met the Residency Obligation notwithstanding clearly being outside Canada more than in Canada.

All of this is why most seasoned observers and commentators here remind soft-landing PRs, again and again, despite the liberal three year window the RO technically allows, it is far, far better to follow through in coming to Canada within at least the first two years after landing. You cannot change what is your history now. But it is prudent to carefully consider the risks involved until it is readily clear you have indeed settled in Canada PERMANENTLY.
 
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vdevil786

Star Member
Jun 28, 2014
192
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Visa Office......
London
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2171
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
23-07-2014
Yes, EVENTUALLY. But again, why rush to apply for a new PR card if that results in Secondary Review and not getting a new card until . . . maybe 2022? That's not a typo. I do mean 2022.

Your risk of being Reported in the course of processing your PR card application is LOW.

There is almost NO risk the PR card application will be "denied."

So yeah, EVENTUALLY you will be fine, if by "fine" you mean you will not lose PR status and will eventually be issued a new PR card. Again, EVENTUALLY, as in maybe a YEAR plus some after making the application.


Traveling abroad in the meantime is a separate matter, with its own risks. For a PR cutting-it-so-close as you are, the risks are real. Especially if for some reason your return to Canada is delayed and you need to apply for a PR Travel Document. If that happens, and this is not just about the threat of travel restrictions related to Covid-19, you will indeed be relying on proving your presence in Canada. Just the objective fact that you have been in Canada at least 730 days within the preceding five years, and indeed within the preceding two years plus a bit, is some insurance but NOT a lot.

The main risks include what @k.h.p. and I have referenced more than once, and that is some contingency that interferes with your planned return to Canada. Stuff Happens. This year illustrates this big time. But as I previously mentioned, this forum is rife with tales of woe told by PRs whose plans ran into this or that real life event knocking things off track. Car crash injuries. Sudden illnesses. In the past even volcanoes have interrupted flights to North America delaying travel. And if you end up needing to apply for a PR Travel Document from abroad, again that triggers the PRESUMPTION that you do not have valid PR status. More clearly putting the burden on you to prove the days you were in Canada. And to do so in the context of having been OUTSIDE Canada more than IN Canada, so the normal, REASONABLE inference is that you were probably outside Canada during any period of time you do not objectively document actual presence in Canada.

There is a tendency among some PRs to put too much weight on the inference of presence between a known date of entry and the next reported date of exit. If IRCC has no reason to question the PR's actual presence, yes, that is the usual inference. BUT if and when IRCC is more closely questioning the proof of actual presence in Canada, that inference carries less weight and absent direct proof of actual presence for the days in-between, this can be given rather little or no weight.

But sure, you can rely on your proof, that it will be sufficient to persuade a total stranger bureaucrat you were in fact present in Canada when you report you were and thus have met the Residency Obligation notwithstanding clearly being outside Canada more than in Canada.

All of this is why most seasoned observers and commentators here remind soft-landing PRs, again and again, despite the liberal three year window the RO technically allows, it is far, far better to follow through in coming to Canada within at least the first two years after landing. You cannot change what is your history now. But it is prudent to carefully consider the risks involved until it is readily clear you have indeed settled in Canada PERMANENTLY.
i got your point, please dont get annoyed by my questions i just want to know what is better for me at the moment. what you suggest me to do ? should i travel in Dec and after returning in Jan, i apply for the PR renewal in Feb?
 

canuck78

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Jun 18, 2017
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Let’s say someone finishes 1150 days in Canada in 3 years straight, 45 days more than 1095 needed for Citizenship requirement. Can apply the Citizenship and leave Canada while application is being processed? Will they be granted citizenship? Or one has to be in Canada for the processing of citizenship application? Will they start deducting the days which are spent outside after finishing 1150 days and before the actual processing starts? Thanks.
So much for making Canada your permanent home and that’s why you shouldn’t be reported:rolleyes: Currently you can leave after you apply for citizenship but that could change by the time you qualify and return to having to show intent that you will remain in Canada. You do have to return to take the test and do the oath.