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5 years PR obligation. am confuse after reading the posts. pls help

Discussion in 'Permanent Residency Obligations' started by Keithcjk, Apr 22, 2012.

  1. hi all

    My first landing to Canada was on 17 Nov 09 and l left Canada on 2 Dec 09 without stepping into canada after that.
    I understand that I have to be physically in Canada 2 years out of 5 years to maintain the PR status.
    1) so the 2 years period starts counting from 17 Nov 09?
    2) So does it mean that between 17 Nov 09 to 16 Nov 14 (5 years), i have to be physically in canada for 730 days?
    3) if so, how come my PR card expiry date is 4 Dec 14 and not 16 Nov 14?
    4) I only got my PR card 3 months after my first landing on 17 Nov 09. So does the days between 17 Nov 09 to 2 Dec 09 count towards the 2 year period which is before I got the PR card?
    5) if the answer to 4 is yes, I remember the custom didnt stamp my passport when I depart on 2 Dec 09, so how does the immigration dept know when i actually left Canada? how do I prove that i am in canada for between 17 Nov to 2 Dec 09?
    6) what does 'rolling 5 years period means'?

    Would appreciate the answers to the questions be answered based on each question.
    It would be easier to understand.

    Thank you so much
  2. 1) Yes

    2) Yes

    3) The PR card expiry date is irrelevant. They probably dated it at the time they printed it and from then on 5 years. If you lose this PR card and apply for a new one, it will have an expiry date 5 years from now. It has really nothing to do with your landing date. It just so happens that most people get their first PR card shortly after landing and the PR card validity period is 5 years just like the period you have to meet the residency requirements. It also makes it easier for immigration that most people have to renew their PR card around the same time as their first 5 years are up, immigration can check if they meet the requirements for that period as they apply to renew. That doesn't actually mean you must renew your card. You can live in Canada with an expired card for years without a problem.

    4) You must meet the residency requirements of 730 days in Canada for your first 5 years as a PR and after that, any rolling 5 year period. If you were in Canada from Nov. 17 until Dec. 2nd 2009, this time counts as time spent in Canada in your first 5 years as a PR.

    5) They didn't used to have exit checks but they are starting to do more of it now. You will just have to trust that they will believe you. They do work with some other border agencies, for example the US but it is also your responsibility to know your travel dates and it would be a good idea for you to keep boarding cards and tickets.

    6) Rolling means that you must meet the residency requirements from Nov. 17th 2009 to Nov. 16th 2014 as well as you must meet them from any day after Nov. 16th 2014 counting 5 years back in time.
  3. Leon,

    Your response to Question 6 basically translates to this (and correct me if I am wrong) ==>

    When an applicant submits an application for PR card renewal, the officer will examine ONLY the last five years from the date of assessment of the PR renewl applcn. In other words, to look good and officially qualify to apply for PR renewal the applicant should have is best off accumulating atleast 730 days or more (typically more is good, of course) on the day they signed the PR renewal application.

    So, if they had an expired PR card and then they did not travel and then accumulated enough time to hit 730+ to apply for renewal. The officer looks at the most recent 5 years going back from the date of reviewing the application to ensure that the applicant accumulated 730 + days (and of course, the applicant is best off if "that date of reviewing the application" looking back 5 years is the date on which the applicant signed the PR application). One can argue that after CIC received the application and started the actual review, say a total of 60 more days transpired, then in theory the applicant is here for 750 +60 days more of presence (as no one in a regular case would have left without a new PR in hand unless they urgently had to). Therefore, the 750 days reported on the application (in the example) is the most accurate reference for the officer to look back 5 years, and based on evidence provided.
  4. That is pretty much it although because they look back at the five years counting from the date of the renewal application, if you apply before you have 730 days, they will not count extra days to your credit if you end up having more than 730 days by the time your application has completed processing.

    This is actually mentioned in the manual for residency requirements, see http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/op10-eng.pdf page 7:

    For persons who have been permanent residents of Canada for more than five years, the only
    five-year period that can be considered in calculating whether an applicant has met the residency
    obligation is the one immediately before the application is received
    in the visa office. A28(2)(b)(ii)
    precludes a visa officer from examining any period other than the most recent five-year period
    immediately before the date of receipt of the application.

    Even if a person had resided away from Canada for many years, but returned to Canada and
    resided there for a minimum of 730 days during the last five years, that person would comply with
    the residency obligation and remain a permanent resident.
    An officer is not permitted to consider
    just any five-year period in the applicant's past, but must always assess the most recent five-year
    period preceding the receipt of the application.

    However, when you stay outside Canada so long that you end up not being able to meet the residency requirements, you do run a risk when you enter Canada that the immigration officer will report you on entry and you could lose your PR.

    Right now, this is not a very big risk because it seems that they don't report people very often and besides, they have not really been conducting exit checks in the past so they have a hard time knowing immediately on entry if you meet the requirements or not. However, they are cracking down on this and they are starting to conduct exit checks so if you can avoid it, you should not be playing at taking this risk.

    Another factor is if you while living outside Canada end up getting married or having a baby. The new spouse or baby would need to be sponsored for PR. If you don't meet the residency requirements, maybe you can slip into Canada unnoticed with your still valid PR card but when you apply to sponsor your family members, they will realize you don't meet the requirements. There is currently one person on this forum with a case exactly like that.

    Yet another one is if you are outside Canada, do not meet the requirements and your PR card is lost, stolen or destroyed, you may find yourself having to apply for a travel document in order to return to Canada and if you don't meet the requirements at that time, you will not get your travel document and will lose your PR.

    Therefore, it is preferable that you don't get yourself in the situation that you don't meet the requirements but if you do find yourself in that situation anyway, you should try to get to Canada while your PR card is still valid and then stay and not apply to renew until you meet the requirements.
  5. Hi Leon

    Thanks for your reply to me. I understand very well..

    Pertaining to question 5, i didn't keep the boarding pass but I still have my e-ticket. Will that do? But e-ticket is kind of risky too because it doesn't mean the person boarded the plane in the first place. However, they did stamp on the date of my first landing but just that they didn't stamp on the day I left the country.
    Can I request from the airline to reprint the boarding pass or some doc that states that I left Canada on 2 Dec 09. I took Cathay pacific.

    Another 2 questions:

    1) If I accumulated eg 800 days from 17 nov 09 to 16 nov 14.
    This means that I have extra 70 days.
    After that I apply for renewal of my PR status for another 5 years on 17 nov 14 just 1 day after my PR expires, will the extra 80 days be counted in for the next 5 years from 17 nov 14 to 16 nov 19?

    2) the next 5 years will start rolling again on the day of application for PR renewal which is 17 nov, right?

    3) is there any method to beat the system and gain extra days eg the method use in question 1?

    Hi us2yow

    I understand your first paragraph but the 2nd paragraph, I am lost.
  6. e-ticket should be fine. I don't think you should worry about it.

    1) and 2) You are still thinking in separate 5 year periods instead of a rolling (moving) 5 year period. After you have been a PR for 5 years and the 5 year period starts to roll, you always look at the last 5 years. Any days spent in Canada more than 5 years ago will then not count any more. Say for example once you get to December 2014, any time spent in November 2009 will have moved outside the 5 year window and will not count any more. That is why you must always continue to spend time in Canada to still meet the residency requirements. Say you apply to renew your PR card for the 2nd time in November 2019, they will look at the period from November 2014 until November 2019 and for that period you will have to meet the requirements. Or say you have renewed your PR card in November 2014 but in April 2016 you are outside Canada and you lose it and must apply for a travel document to get back. Then they will look at the period April 2011 to April 2016 and you must meet the requirements for that period.

    3) There is no method to beat this system except the one us2yow and I were discussing and that would be taking the chance not to meet the requirements and getting into Canada before your PR card expires. If you don't get caught as you enter, then you could stay for 2 years, meet the residency requirements again and apply to renew your PR card because they only look at the last 5 years as you apply. However, there is the risk that you would get caught and lose your PR if you do this.
  7. There are a couple of ways your days spent outside of Canada can count towards your PR residency. They are:

    1) You are living outside of Canada with your Canadian citizen spouse.

    2) You were hired by a Canadian company in Canada and then at a later date, your job was transferred to a location outside of Canada.
  8. advise to you dear
    1. don't be scared they will ask you at airport little bit but have no right to stop you to enter in Canada with valid pr card. (according to the date on card).
    2. when i came some stupid people advised me to even do the fake stamps( entry and exit). however you should be smart enough to understand that immigration know even if a bird come to Canada so don't even thing otherwise even if some body is giving you all kind of security. end of the day you will be in trouble not the other person.
    3. complete 730 days once in Canada then apply for renewal.
    bets of luck
  9. Hi Leon

    Thanks. I know you tried your best to explain but I am still a bit lost.
    Pls see below to see whether I have fully comprehended what you are saying.

    Maybe put it in more simpler terms for the answers to question 1 & 2

    1) answer - No. When i apply for renewal on 17 Nov 14, they are just concern that i fulfill the 2 years period from 17 Nov 09 to 16 Nov 14. They will not take into consideration the extra 80 days because i have already fulfill the 730 days.

    2) answer - not applicable. Upon PR card renewal, they will just count back 5 years to see whether I have fulfill the 2 years period. In the above example, I have fulfilled the 730 days.

    Just say I fulfilled the 730 days by 16 Nov 14 and left Canada. My card expires on 4 Dec 14. However, I didn't apply for renewal of the card until 1 April 15 when I came back into Canada. This means to say that there is a lapse period of the pR card from 5 Dec 14 to 31 March 15. When I apply for the renewal of the PR card, they will count back 5 years from 1 April 15 and will not take into account that I have fulfill the 730 days from 17 Nov 09 to 16 Nov 14. Is that correct?

    3) Based on the example above, can I say that it is always better renew the PR card before it lapse?
    4) Will they question me at the custom when i come back on 1 April 15 since the PR card has lapse?
    5) Will they say that i am no longer a PR at the custom because the card has expired?
    6) Presumably, I manage to renew the PR card on 1 April 15 and they gave me a new PR card and the expiry date is June 2020.
    I need to clock up another 5 years, so where to count?

    Hi Farid

    based on your answer 1, if the card is still valid, they will not ask you any question and stop you at the custom right?

  10. 1. Right, they are just concerned if you have 730 days in the 5 years counting backwards to the date you apply to renew. If you apply to renew before you have been a PR for 5 years already, they will not look at if you have already met 730 days but if you still could. Say you apply having spent 720 days in Canada but you still have a month left to your 5 years PR anniversary, then they can say, ok, he has 720 days but if he stays in Canada for the month he has left, he will have 750 days in his first year as a PR which is more than enough. However, it is better to apply when you have your solid 730 days. You should prefer to wait to apply until you do. You do not get any extra points for having extra days.

    2. Right. In your example, if you do not apply to renew until April 2015, they will just look at the period April 2010 to April 2015 and not really care what you were doing before that.

    3. As long as you are in Canada, it does not matter if you renew before it lapses or after but keep in mind that unless you are visa exempt to Canada, if you want to travel, you will have a problem coming back if you do not have a valid PR card.

    4. See 3. If your PR card has expired, unless you are visa exempt to Canada, an airline will not even let you board the plane. You would need to go to the Canadian embassy and ask for a PR travel document and they will decide if you meet the residency requirements that you shall get one. If you are visa exempt, you can board the plane with your passport and then have to deal with immigration as you arrive in Canada about your expired PR card.

    5. Surely they may say something to you about not having renewed it in time but they should let you enter.

    6. Every day you count 5 years backwards. If you lose your 2020 card or it is stolen or destroyed in a house fire or whatever may happen and need to apply for a travel document to return, they will look at the last 5 year period from that day.
  11. i didn't mean they will not ask you at all. officer can ask for example how you are going to meet residency obligation (they asked me same) just act like an idiot that you don;t understand what they mean just say oh ..on pr it says it's valid just politely..for me officer didn't say much she said ok go. because you i acted like i didn't know anything and try to be polite don't argue whatever they say. the more you are quiet it's better for you.
    just keep in mind one thing i have to cross that officer to be in Canada and complete residency trust me. once you are in nothing will happen plus officer will try to scare you but by law he can't stop you on valid pr..
  12. However, if you don't meet the requirements and they know it and you say something to tick them off or they are in a bad mood, whatever, they can report you for not meeting the requirements. If they do that, they still must let you in but you would have 30 days to appeal their decision or you may end up losing your PR. This doesn't happen often it seems but it still happens sometimes.

    If you get into Canada without being reported and without meeting the requirements, usually nothing will happen and you can stay 2 years and renew your PR but if you do something to draw attention to yourself, say you have gotten married or had a new baby while outside Canada and you want to sponsor your family member, they will see that you do not meet the residency requirements and may take action. There is currently one member of this forum in that situation.
  13. Hi Leon and Farid

    Thanks for all the advices and help

    Leon, pertaining to my question 6, they will count back 5 years from June 2020 based on what is printed on the PR card right?
    that means i have to fulfill 730 days from June 2015 to June 2020?
  14. No, they will count back from the date of your application whenever that is. If you apply to renew in June 2020, they will look at the period June 2015 to June 2020. If you apply April 2015 because you want to make sure you have your new PR card before the other one expires, they will look at April to April. If you let it expire, maybe you forget and do not apply for a new one until October 2020, they will look at October to October and if your PR card ends up lost, stolen or destroyed and you apply for a new one (or a travel document if you are outside Canada) that might happen in 2016, 2017, 2018 or 2019 and then they will look at your application date and count back 5 years before that.
  15. they look last five yrs. so don't worry. be happy relax. come over spent 2 yrs. and renew the residency....

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