What is my citizenship?

[armoured]

Even with that, in some cases, it's not. One example is the forfeiture of nationality (i.e., denaturalization). That's why, sometimes, they ask for a certificate (from the Court) up to date

Fair enough, I'm sure there are some other weird corner cases as well. I mean, carrying a passport that is stolen (someone else's) is also not 'proof' that the holder is a citizen.

What I was trying to draw attention to was that there is a CITIZENSHIP line in the passport that is meant to indicate precisely that (as opposed to just the cover of the passport/issuing country).

 

[frange]

A passport is not a proof (at least for some countries) for the citizenship. In other words, you can have a passport from a country A without being a citizen of that country.

That is an exception actually, not the rule.
Passport=citizenship either temporary or definitely... That's the United Nation's rule

 

[Idrissrafd]

That is an exception actually, not the rule.
Passport=citizenship either temporary or definitely... That's the United Nation's rule

You can have a passport without being a citizen of that country. Actually, a passport itself, be it temporary or definitely, valid or invalid, is only a prima facie proof of citizenship.(1) That's why IRCC doesn't list the passport as a proof of citizenship. (2)
I'm more confortable with the French law (that's my job), but apparently even in Canada it's a little bit more complicated than "passport = citizenship".

Although the provincial or territorial birth certificate is accepted by IRCC as valid proof of citizenship, Section 3(2) of the Citizenship Act declares that a child born in Canada to a diplomatic or consular officer or other representative of a foreign country, or an employee in the service of such person, is not a Canadian citizen if neither parent was a Canadian citizen or Canadian permanent resident at time of the child's birth. Such persons may be issued Canadian passports, as their provincial or territorial birth certificate are considered as proof of citizenship. Under the Act, however, they are legally not Canadian citizens even if they hold a valid Canadian passport.

The ambiguity on the enforcement of the Act can create hardship for Canadian passport holders who assumed they were Canadian citizens. Deepan Budlakoti, a stateless man born in Ottawa to Indian parents who were employed by the Indian High Commission at the time of his birth, was twice issued a Canadian passport under the assumption that he was a Canadian citizen by virtue of being born in Canada.[71] His Canadian passport, however, was cancelled after his criminal convictions in 2010 brought the investigation by Citizenship and Immigration Canada, which concluded in 2011 that he was not a Canadian citizen, but a permanent resident. His request for judicial review in the Federal Court, and subsequent appeals up to the Supreme Court of Canada, to recognize him as a Canadian citizen were denied.[72] The Indian government claims that he had lost his Indian citizenship by obtaining a Canadian passport, as Rule 3 of Schedule III of the Citizenship Rules, 1956 of India states that "the fact that a citizen of India has obtained on any date a passport from the Government of any other country shall be conclusive proof of his/her having voluntarily acquired the citizenship of that country before that date".[72] Budlakoti, therefore, is stateless, regardless of the fact that he had held a Canadian passport.

(1) That's why the mention "citizenship" in some passports is so important and can be the only proof, not the passport itself.
(2) https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/proof-citizenship/documents.html

 

[Underhill]

Fair enough, I'm sure there are some other weird corner cases as well. I mean, carrying a passport that is stolen (someone else's) is also not 'proof' that the holder is a citizen.

What I was trying to draw attention to was that there is a CITIZENSHIP line in the passport that is meant to indicate precisely that (as opposed to just the cover of the passport/issuing country).

I have to say, this whole conversation re passports = citizenship is bonkers! I consider myself a reasonably knowledgable person and I had absolutely no idea that one could hold a passport (somewhere) and not be a citizen of that country.

Thanks for blowing my mind before morning coffee!

 

[armoured]

I have to say, this whole conversation re passports = citizenship is bonkers! I consider myself a reasonably knowledgable person and I had absolutely no idea that one could hold a passport (somewhere) and not be a citizen of that country.

Thanks for blowing my mind before morning coffee!

There are other weird cases, mostly hangovers of the colonial era - British Nationals Overseas (mostly Hong Kong), who are British nationals but not citizens - whatever the heck that means. USA has a similar strange construction for a couple pacific island colonies (maybe more cases). Maybe New Zealand has it with the Cook Islands, which is another whole ball of wax (self-governing country in free assocation, or some such formulation) - I have no idea.

I seem to recall that some countries would issue "service passports" (or some other name) for certain government employees/military personnel that are not citizens, too, but that may be a false memory.

 

[frange]

I have to say, this whole conversation re passports = citizenship is bonkers! I consider myself a reasonably knowledgable person and I had absolutely no idea that one could hold a passport (somewhere) and not be a citizen of that country.

Thanks for blowing my mind before morning coffee!

Why complicate thing when you can make it simple. We are not in international private law; no need to put all law knowledge on a forum.
I know it exists that someone can hold a passport of a country without a national citizen of that country. This is very rare and it is an exception.

Generally speaking, hold a country's passport means you are a citizen of that country. That's the response for the poster.

 

[armoured]

I know it exists that someone can hold a passport of a country without a national citizen of that country. This is very rare and it is an exception.

Generally speaking, hold a country's passport means you are a citizen of that country. That's the response for the poster.

I stated right up front that it is rare. You also included information that was just plain wrong, however, about birth certificate and citizenship.

If you don't want some off-topic ramblings, you're going to be very disappointed by the internet )).

 

[YVR123]

I consider myself with no citizenship before I became a Canadian. I was using a travel document (CI) before. I have a birth certificate but I did not own a passport or could get a passport from the country that I was born.

 

[frange]

I stated right up front that it is rare. You also included information that was just plain wrong, however, about birth certificate and citizenship.

If you don't want some off-topic ramblings, you're going to be very disappointed by the internet )).

I am not sure about wrong information concerning birth certificate and citizenship.
Birthright= Jus Soli
Generally: Birth certificate = automatic citizenship (Jus soli by ex. Canada, USA)
Exception: France ( republican certificate, Citizenship granted at 18) and Bahamas ( Travel document with parent citizenship, Bahamian Citizenship granted at 18)

NB: When you born in a country in which the citizenship is not automatically granted, they do not give you a birth certificate, they give a document of birth which is legally equivalent to a birth certificate. There is a path to follow to fully become citizen. Off course there may be exceptions; but not really false or wrong.

I am in international private law which is a huge topic ( Law). Birth certificate = citizenship ------- Citizenship is different than Birth certificate since there is an only way to have birth certificate( By birth) and citizenship can be granted by many ways ( Born, decent, naturalization.. etc.)

Even born in a country in which the birthright(Jus soli) is using, you may not be eligible for the citizenship if your parents are filling an official position in that country such as ambassador, diplomat , consul or else.

 

[frange]

I consider myself with no citizenship before I became a Canadian. I was using a travel document (CI) before. I have a birth certificate but I did not own a passport or could get a passport from the country that I was born.

Your case is an exception. Don't take it as a rule.

 

[YVR123]

Your case is an exception. Don't take it as a rule.

I agree. It's not a very common case.

 

[armoured]

I am not sure about wrong information concerning birth certificate and citizenship.
Birthright= Jus Soli
Generally: Birth certificate = automatic citizenship (Jus soli by ex. Canada, USA)

I have never, ever heard this statement that the name "birth certificate" (in whatever language) equals automatic citizenship unless the country works by birthright (jus soli). It depends on jurisdiction - period.

There are many, many countries that do not have jus soli or birthright citizenship.

NB: When you born in a country in which the citizenship is not automatically granted, they do not give you a birth certificate, they give a document of birth which is legally equivalent to a birth certificate.

What? Seriously? They give you a "document of birth which is legally equivalent to a birth certificate"? Sounds like a birth certificate to me; that's literally what 'birth certificate' means - a certificate attesting to birth.

Perhaps there is some country in which there is a different document with a different title that's "legally equivalent" but just a "document of birth" and not a birth certificate. Maybe.

But at any rate, I did not use the capitalized title Birth Certificate - I used a generalized term to indicate a document attesting to a birth: what is called a birth certificate. It might have a more specific name like "certificate of live birth" but - news flash - that is not the point.

And I'm currently in a country where the birth certificate bears exactly the same title regardless of whether that conveys citizenship or not. (In the native language, of course)

So no, sorry - your point about birth certificate = citizenship is just wrong. It may be true for many countries and in particular Canada (except for specific carve-outs such as diplomats), but it is not a general truth that can be relied upon and is not correct in the context in which it came up here.

 

[frange]

I have never, ever heard this statement that the name "birth certificate" (in whatever language) equals automatic citizenship unless the country works by birthright (jus soli). It depends on jurisdiction - period.

There are many, many countries that do not have jus soli or birthright citizenship.



What? Seriously? They give you a "document of birth which is legally equivalent to a birth certificate"? Sounds like a birth certificate to me; that's literally what 'birth certificate' means - a certificate attesting to birth.

Perhaps there is some country in which there is a different document with a different title that's "legally equivalent" but just a "document of birth" and not a birth certificate. Maybe.

But at any rate, I did not use the capitalized title Birth Certificate - I used a generalized term to indicate a document attesting to a birth: what is called a birth certificate. It might have a more specific name like "certificate of live birth" but - news flash - that is not the point.

And I'm currently in a country where the birth certificate bears exactly the same title regardless of whether that conveys citizenship or not. (In the native language, of course)

So no, sorry - your point about birth certificate = citizenship is just wrong. It may be true for many countries and in particular Canada (except for specific carve-outs such as diplomats), but it is not a general truth that can be relied upon and is not correct in the context in which it came up here.

Did you see the title?

Birthright= Jus Soli
1-Generally: Birth certificate = automatic citizenship (Jus soli by ex. Canada, USA)
2- Exception: France ( republican certificate, Citizenship granted at 18) and Bahamas ( Travel document with parent citizenship, Bahamian Citizenship granted at 18) .

NB: I make a generality which applied to US and Canada where it is automatic ; then an exception France and Bahamas where it is not automatic. I tell you the appellation can be different from country to country. This doc is used legally as a birth certificate by example France when parents are foreigners, they don't give a BC but a document called republican certificate which states that the person is born in France with all the information as a real BC. Bahamas as well. When turns 18, the citizenship is granted.

Did you see that part again?

NB: When you born in a country in which the citizenship is not automatically granted=NON JUS SOLI JURIDICTIONS they do not give you a birth certificate, they give a document of birth( Attestation of birth; however you call it) which is legally equivalent ( NOT EQUAL) to a birth certificate. There is a path to follow to fully become citizen. Off course there may be exceptions; but not really false or wrong.


Note: We are in Law all the terms have their own meanings
Equivalent... Can be used for some purposes, not all purpose.... Application can be different
Equal.... All the same purpose, no different application.

Jus Soli=Citizenship automatic and birth certificate even parents are foreigners.
= Citizenship Not automatic, no a real birth certificate but a birth document( can be called differently/country) + path to citizenship unless exceptions such as: ambassador, diplomat, consul.


NON Jus soli jurisdiction= Most of them do the same as jus soli juridiction with no automatic citizenship (no birth certificate but a birth document( can called differently/country) + path to citizenship unless exceptions such as: ambassador, diplomat, consul).

Exceptionally some of non Jus soli jurisdictions, give the same immigration status as their parents even no status at all for illegal parents by example Dominican republic. If you are illegal and give birth, your child will only have a birth doc+ ID card which can be used to go to school..etc. Parents can decide if they want to pass their citizenship to the child; but not Dominican citizen actually.


Sorry for this literature,

 

[armoured]

Sorry for this literature,

So we're agreed then: whether a document attesting to birth, whatever it may be called (and generally referred to as a 'birth certificate' in English) means citizenship or not depends on jurisdiction.

Much clearer now, thanks.

 

[armoured]

2- Exception: France ( republican certificate, Citizenship granted at 18) and Bahamas ( Travel document with parent citizenship, Bahamian Citizenship granted at 18) .

NB: I make a generality which applied to US and Canada where it is automatic ; then an exception France and Bahamas where it is not automatic. I tell you the appellation can be different from country to country. This doc is used legally as a birth certificate by example France when parents are foreigners, they don't give a BC but a document called republican certificate which states that the person is born in France with all the information as a real BC. Bahamas as well. When turns 18, the citizenship is granted.

Did you see that part again?

I apologize for returning to this but this is also incorrect, at least with regards to France. (I apologize because I have spent time in France, so of interest to me, and clearly I also have some OCD issues).

It's quite clear France issues birth certificates to children of non-French nationals:
https://www.weka.fr/administration-locale/dossier-pratique/etat-civil-dt21/etablir-l-acte-de-naissance-d-un-enfant-ne-de-parents-etrangers-1354/#:~:text=Oui, la naissance d'un,état civil français territorialement compétent.

"Le fait que la mère et le père de l’enfant soient étrangers n’a en principe pas d’incidence sur l’établissement de l’acte de naissance."

The 'titre d'identité républicain' is not a replacement or issued instead of a birth certificate. (Apart from the fact that it is no longer issued). It was - and its replacement, the Document de circulation pour étranger mineur is, an identity document for certain travel in and out of France/the Schengen zone for minors without French citizenship. It does not attest to birth (can also be issued to those born outside of France), but to situation in France allowing circulation within the EU and back to France without a visa.
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2718
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titre_d'identité_républicain_en_France

Now, none of the above should be taken as any kind of advice about French birth certificates or citizenship law. But no, it's not true that France issues some other kind of document than a birth certificate for foreign children. (There is an oddity of French law compared to some other countries, as I understand, in that France issues acte de naissance both for children born of French citizens abroad and for those acquiring French citizenship later i.e. naturalizing; odd only in the sense that some get an 'acte de naissance' that is not really about birth, but French identity, being metaphorically reborn I guess as a citizen of La République.)

So, like many other countries, jus soli or jus sanguinis - a birth certificate may tell you something about citizenship; but not always.

NB: When you born in a country in which the citizenship is not automatically granted=NON JUS SOLI JURIDICTIONS they do not give you a birth certificate, they give a document of birth( Attestation of birth; however you call it) which is legally equivalent ( NOT EQUAL) to a birth certificate. .. Off course there may be exceptions; but not really false or wrong.

Again, this is false. I repeat, I'm in a country where the birth certificate is identical in form and name whether the child gets citizenship or not. So far we have: Canada. France - as documented above. Russia. UK. Perhaps there are some countries where they issue a different document, but you have yet to show one. (I can't find any confirmation of your claim that the Bahamas issues a different birth certificate to children of foreign parents, either).

As far as I can tell, ALL european union countries have similar rules to France regarding birth certificates: they must be issued to all children born in that country; regardless of citizenship (the EU and European insitutions on human rights etc do note issues with administration, but NOT some fundamental difference in approach).
https://index.statelessness.eu/sites/default/files/ENS-Birth_registrations-StatelessnessINDEX_briefing.pdf

(You'll note this reference doc uses the general term 'birth certificate' throughout including for France.)

You say 'of course there may be exceptions' - but your claim is far broader, that 'when you're born in a country where citizenship is not automatically granted, they do not give you a birth certificate, they give you a 'document of birth.' (Which again, is known as a birth certificate in common usage anyway).

So no, as far as I can tell: this claim is far too broad (and basically meaningless anyway if they give you a 'document of birth.') Many, many countries issue birth certificates, including to non-citizen children, under the same name as a 'regular' birth certificate.

Again, my point has been relatively simple: birth certificate alone is not universally proof of citizenship; it depends on jurisdiction.

(I did overstate my point rhetorically that 'nowhere has a separate document' for non-citizen 'documents of birth' - I'm not aware of any. I have yet to see a jurisdiction where it is demonstrably the case that there is a separate document, but sure, there may be one.)

Again, apologies, this is a bit deep in the weeds and a product of my OCD + habitual insomnia.