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Expired PR, entered canada thru USA border - officers applied section 44 Residency Obligation & Removal Order . what next?

NR-2020

Newbie
Feb 3, 2022
4
0
Hi ,
I did Landing in 2004 , stayed in Canada for 10days and got the PR & SIN cards for myself, wife , elder son (PR only) , younger son is child (no PR) born post 2009. Our PR cards were expired in 2009 for all family members

Background
1.Elder son – 18yrs, entered Canada thru USA border , got university admission & finally got the PR renewed for 5 years
2.Wife – She is CA qualified accountant, entered Canada thru USA border (One year after elder son entered Canada), got section 44 (Residency Obligation & Removal Order) hence filed appeal within 30 days
3.Myself & younger son are based in home country, waiting for my wife’s renewal of PR (?)

My queries
Since we have filed appeal (IAD IRB) . What are the probabilities of appeal decision (in my scenario one son having PR renewed & studies in Canada and another son (child) is not with her) , how long it may take ?
My wife having SIN card (Not starting with “9” series & no expiry date written ) , since it is never used so not sure if this is dormant . Can she work on this card?
Appreciate expert views , opinions, suggestion & way forward from you experts
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,694
7,963
Since we have filed appeal (IAD IRB) . What are the probabilities of appeal decision (in my scenario one son having PR renewed & studies in Canada and another son (child) is not with her) , how long it may take ?
My wife having SIN card (Not starting with “9” series & no expiry date written ) , since it is never used so not sure if this is dormant . Can she work on this card?
No-one can tell you what the chances are - and in the end it boils down to what decision you receive rather than the probabilities.

BUT: keep in mind the situation with your son was likely 'decided' on a completely different basis (esp since seems to have been admitted at border without report/appeal). Effectively (don't know whether formally) the removed-as-minor situation - i.e. that he had no choice in the matter and returned soon after becoming adult.

Your spouse does not have any such claim of course, nor any obvious compelling reasons she couldn't come to Canada in 15+ years, and seemingly only ties in Canada are the son who returned only recently, and rest of family (you and daughter) abroad. It doesn't sound like a good case for humanitarian and compassionate consideration, honestly - but it's up to her to make the case as best she can.

SIN: whether dormant or not, the SIN is valid and she should be able to use it to work - but I'm not certain that problems can't arise. The dormant status seems primarily to mean ability to access info online and (crucially) access benefits - as (if I remember correctly) the stated reason CRA/Service Canada put them into dormant status is to prevent identity fraud and the like. That said if working with the dormant card causes some problem, I do not know if she would be able to re-activate the account.

Good luck.
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
93,208
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Toronto
Category........
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05-10-2010
Hi ,
I did Landing in 2004 , stayed in Canada for 10days and got the PR & SIN cards for myself, wife , elder son (PR only) , younger son is child (no PR) born post 2009. Our PR cards were expired in 2009 for all family members

Background
1.Elder son – 18yrs, entered Canada thru USA border , got university admission & finally got the PR renewed for 5 years
2.Wife – She is CA qualified accountant, entered Canada thru USA border (One year after elder son entered Canada), got section 44 (Residency Obligation & Removal Order) hence filed appeal within 30 days
3.Myself & younger son are based in home country, waiting for my wife’s renewal of PR (?)

My queries
Since we have filed appeal (IAD IRB) . What are the probabilities of appeal decision (in my scenario one son having PR renewed & studies in Canada and another son (child) is not with her) , how long it may take ?
My wife having SIN card (Not starting with “9” series & no expiry date written ) , since it is never used so not sure if this is dormant . Can she work on this card?
Appreciate expert views , opinions, suggestion & way forward from you experts
My understanding is that you should be prepared for a 2 year wait for the appeal process. However perhaps others have more recent information on expected waits.

I don't think any of us can comment on the chances of success in appealing. She was outside of Canada for 15 years and your family never established yourselves in Canada after getting PR (i.e. only remained in Canada for 10 days). Your older son is in Canada which is a pro. However you and your other child are outside of Canada. I think it's very hard to guess the outcome. But it's not a strong profile in my opinion given the length of time outside of Canada.

If she has a SIN, then she can work.

Good luck.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,062
12,800
Would add that if your child is attending university they are usually considered an adult and can live independently. Given your minimal ties and not having spent any ti e in Canada your arguments are not strong. Your wife is potentially looking at a long period of separation from you and her other child with no guarantee that she will be able to remain in Canada. Your son was lucky to be able to retain his PR and attend university while paying domestic fees without his family ever being taxpayers.

Because of fraud issues there are more stringent procedures when it comes to reactivating SIN#, getting a health card,etc. In some provinces you are required to show a valid PR card. She will have to see what happens when she tries to activate her SIN#.
 
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armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,694
7,963
Because of fraud issues there are more stringent procedures when it comes to reactivating SIN#, ... She will have to see what happens when she tries to deactivate her SIN#.
And @NR-2020 - please advise what happens with your wife's SIN usage.

So far I cannot see any evidence that one cannot 'use' a dormant SIN (at least in the sense of using it work by providing that SIN number to the employer). I.e. - does the employer get some question? Any actual issues?

It could be. Or it just could be that one cannot use it to access related benefits or account information.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,062
12,800
And @NR-2020 - please advise what happens with your wife's SIN usage.

So far I cannot see any evidence that one cannot 'use' a dormant SIN (at least in the sense of using it work by providing that SIN number to the employer). I.e. - does the employer get some question? Any actual issues?

It could be. Or it just could be that one cannot use it to access related benefits or account information.
If you use a dormant SIN# CRA should contact the employer eventually.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,300
3,064
Hi ,
I did Landing in 2004 , stayed in Canada for 10days and got the PR & SIN cards for myself, wife , elder son (PR only) , younger son is child (no PR) born post 2009. Our PR cards were expired in 2009 for all family members

Background
1.Elder son – 18yrs, entered Canada thru USA border , got university admission & finally got the PR renewed for 5 years
2.Wife – She is CA qualified accountant, entered Canada thru USA border (One year after elder son entered Canada), got section 44 (Residency Obligation & Removal Order) hence filed appeal within 30 days
3.Myself & younger son are based in home country, waiting for my wife’s renewal of PR (?)

My queries
Since we have filed appeal (IAD IRB) . What are the probabilities of appeal decision (in my scenario one son having PR renewed & studies in Canada and another son (child) is not with her) , how long it may take ?
My wife having SIN card (Not starting with “9” series & no expiry date written ) , since it is never used so not sure if this is dormant . Can she work on this card?
Appreciate expert views , opinions, suggestion & way forward from you experts
I am NO expert.

I disagree some with the view that no one can say what the chances are. Sure, no one can reliably calculate a precise probability. And it is worth emphasizing the actual outcome is not determined by chance . . . what matters are the specific details, the facts and circumstances in the individual case; these are what will most influence the outcome. For the PR who remains in Canada, how long before the appeal is actually heard by the IAD can be a significant, potentially positive factor, but absent other substantially favourable H&C factors that has not, historically, tipped the scales much.

Which means, sorry to say, frankly it appears that the odds are not good, ranging from poor to very poor. Poor enough it would be prudent to anticipate that the appeal will be dismissed and the decision to terminate PR status thus enforced. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. For most the situation warrants being realistic. Some, perhaps many can afford the gamble, taking their best shot. And I do not mean to discourage doing that. Many others, however, have other priorities to consider (costs, family separation, among other personal consideration) and will want to approach their decision-making pragmatically.

Which leads to questions about the next step and how long the appeal will take.

Key next step: see a qualified, reputable immigration LAWYER. A licensed immigration lawyer with experience in these kinds of cases. NOT a consultant. If cost is a concern, start with a consultation, a paid for consultation (free consultations are rarely if ever worth any more than what you pay for). At the least, a lawyer can offer a more realistic, practical assessment of the situation, and very specifically describe the process going forward. If full out representation is affordable, that can improve the odds of success (cannot guarantee success, and in this situation even with a lawyer odds remain not so good).

But, that in turns leads to the other part of the question, the HOW LONG question.

How Long Will An Appeal Take?

Appeals, like everything else related to immigration, are currently badly delayed due to the pandemic. Historically they have ranged from a little less than a year to well over a year, more than a few approaching two years. The latter seems quite likely now.

My sense is that you have conflicting preferences. If a favourable outcome was more likely, you probably would prefer a faster process, the sooner the better.

However, subject to what a qualified lawyer says, the longer it takes to be heard by the IAD, the better the odds of a successful, favourable outcome. But that is without any assurance how much this can improve the odds. This leads back to the importance (if pursuing the appeal and keeping PR status is a high priority) of obtaining a lawyer's assistance. For information. And for navigating the process in the most advantageous way, which might be to encourage some delays (with the objective of increasing the PR's establishment in Canada as a positive factor in the appeal), as well as presenting the case in its most favourable light.

Also note: a lawyer can better review the whole procedure to see if there was some procedural error in the adjudication procedure resulting in the 44(1) Report and Removal Order, that might render that not valid in law (a technical reason for allowing the appeal). This is NOT likely. Not at all likely. But it happens. In those isolated instances it happens, it can save the PR's status.


Other Observations:

I will mostly defer to others in regards to most SIN questions; except to say, concurring with @scylla, that as a PR she can legally work in Canada. How the situation will practically affect obtaining employment, dealing with CRA, and such, there appears to be a good deal of uncertainty.

I will push a little harder than @armoured in distinguishing your older son's experience. While a different outcome was possible, perhaps more likely, if he had applied for a PR Travel Document based on H&C reasons (given the minimal stay in Canada initially), the removed-as-a-minor factor (whether addressed explicitly or simply an understood factor given his age upon arrival) undoubtedly tipped the scales favourably in however things went (whether border officials waived him through, authorizing entry without adjudicating RO compliance; or adjudicating RO compliance and determining he would be allowed to retain status based on H&C reasons, which would more definitively have been based on the removed-as-a-minor factor). But, as @armoured notes, your spouse does not have that H&C factor and does not appear to have a good H&C case otherwise.

Overall:

Best case scenario almost certainly means being separated for a long while, YEARS, during which the outcome will remain in limbo, with likely affirmation of the decision to terminate PR status looming overhead. . . . That is UNLESS you are eligible to apply for and obtain PR status again (noting eligibility qualifications have changed a lot since 2004). If there is a fair chance of qualifying for and obtaining PR status again, you could submit the forms for renouncing PR status, or apply for a PR TD which when denied will terminate your PR status, and then begin the process for applying for PR status anew, and be doing this while waiting for the outcome in your spouse's case.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,062
12,800
I am NO expert.

I disagree some with the view that no one can say what the chances are. Sure, no one can reliably calculate a precise probability. And it is worth emphasizing the actual outcome is not determined by chance . . . what matters are the specific details, the facts and circumstances in the individual case; these are what will most influence the outcome. For the PR who remains in Canada, how long before the appeal is actually heard by the IAD can be a significant, potentially positive factor, but absent other substantially favourable H&C factors that has not, historically, tipped the scales much.

Which means, sorry to say, frankly it appears that the odds are not good, ranging from poor to very poor. Poor enough it would be prudent to anticipate that the appeal will be dismissed and the decision to terminate PR status thus enforced. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. For most the situation warrants being realistic. Some, perhaps many can afford the gamble, taking their best shot. And I do not mean to discourage doing that. Many others, however, have other priorities to consider (costs, family separation, among other personal consideration) and will want to approach their decision-making pragmatically.

Which leads to questions about the next step and how long the appeal will take.

Key next step: see a qualified, reputable immigration LAWYER. A licensed immigration lawyer with experience in these kinds of cases. NOT a consultant. If cost is a concern, start with a consultation, a paid for consultation (free consultations are rarely if ever worth any more than what you pay for). At the least, a lawyer can offer a more realistic, practical assessment of the situation, and very specifically describe the process going forward. If full out representation is affordable, that can improve the odds of success (cannot guarantee success, and in this situation even with a lawyer odds remain not so good).

But, that in turns leads to the other part of the question, the HOW LONG question.

How Long Will An Appeal Take?

Appeals, like everything else related to immigration, are currently badly delayed due to the pandemic. Historically they have ranged from a little less than a year to well over a year, more than a few approaching two years. The latter seems quite likely now.

My sense is that you have conflicting preferences. If a favourable outcome was more likely, you probably would prefer a faster process, the sooner the better.

However, subject to what a qualified lawyer says, the longer it takes to be heard by the IAD, the better the odds of a successful, favourable outcome. But that is without any assurance how much this can improve the odds. This leads back to the importance (if pursuing the appeal and keeping PR status is a high priority) of obtaining a lawyer's assistance. For information. And for navigating the process in the most advantageous way, which might be to encourage some delays (with the objective of increasing the PR's establishment in Canada as a positive factor in the appeal), as well as presenting the case in its most favourable light.

Also note: a lawyer can better review the whole procedure to see if there was some procedural error in the adjudication procedure resulting in the 44(1) Report and Removal Order, that might render that not valid in law (a technical reason for allowing the appeal). This is NOT likely. Not at all likely. But it happens. In those isolated instances it happens, it can save the PR's status.


Other Observations:

I will mostly defer to others in regards to most SIN questions; except to say, concurring with @scylla, that as a PR she can legally work in Canada. How the situation will practically affect obtaining employment, dealing with CRA, and such, there appears to be a good deal of uncertainty.

I will push a little harder than @armoured in distinguishing your older son's experience. While a different outcome was possible, perhaps more likely, if he had applied for a PR Travel Document based on H&C reasons (given the minimal stay in Canada initially), the removed-as-a-minor factor (whether addressed explicitly or simply an understood factor given his age upon arrival) undoubtedly tipped the scales favourably in however things went (whether border officials waived him through, authorizing entry without adjudicating RO compliance; or adjudicating RO compliance and determining he would be allowed to retain status based on H&C reasons, which would more definitively have been based on the removed-as-a-minor factor). But, as @armoured notes, your spouse does not have that H&C factor and does not appear to have a good H&C case otherwise.

Overall:

Best case scenario almost certainly means being separated for a long while, YEARS, during which the outcome will remain in limbo, with likely affirmation of the decision to terminate PR status looming overhead. . . . That is UNLESS you are eligible to apply for and obtain PR status again (noting eligibility qualifications have changed a lot since 2004). If there is a fair chance of qualifying for and obtaining PR status again, you could submit the forms for renouncing PR status, or apply for a PR TD which when denied will terminate your PR status, and then begin the process for applying for PR status anew, and be doing this while waiting for the outcome in your spouse's case.
Agree that you and your spouse really need to consider whether the cost of appealing and the length of separation is worth the chance of potentially retaining your PR status. If denied your appeal the time working in Canada can not be used to apply for PR again.
 

NR-2020

Newbie
Feb 3, 2022
4
0
Thank you for your responses , valuable time and efforts.
More details of not opting to move to Canada to retain PR
1. My mother and sisters were with my uncle , then my uncle was expired (during PR active tenure) and i had to sponsor & take care of my mother n sister. Sister got married in and mother being taken care by my family friend cum relatives
2. My mother in law was critically sick, hence I had to sponsor her and take care of her health. Now she is being taken care of family friend cum relative
3. My wife , (qualified CA from india, vast working experience at snr management level in big multinational companies.
2018 onwards , she tried for her new PR process (Express entry/PND), completed WES certification, IELTS but she was little short of points (i guess 62points)
5. Recently came to know about revival process and hired Lawyer to managed to cross my elder son to Canada and successfully got the PR card renewed

note, my wife along with my younger son tried to enter canada thru US border and had long interviews (10hours) & explained above with evidences. Finally , my your son was not allowed n wife was allowed but got section 44. It seems our case is not strong to revive the existing PR but exploring the possible option . Appreciate your valuable input

My queries:
1.wrt SIN Service canada offices some said it is valid for life and some not sure , so asked to check with Lawyer. We don't want benefit but need only for employment. will there any constraints?
2. If my wife is allowed to work atleast a year & attempt to complete canada CPA qualification, what are the chances for new PR thru express entry/PNP ?
3. Pls suggest good experienced lawyer (based in Ontario, Toronto / vicinity) having experience in such cases who can provide holistic view & solution to get PR for wife and subsequent sponsor my younger son & myself ? and any idea how much would be their fees (rough estimate)?
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,062
12,800
Thank you for your responses , valuable time and efforts.
More details of not opting to move to Canada to retain PR
1. My mother and sisters were with my uncle , then my uncle was expired (during PR active tenure) and i had to sponsor & take care of my mother n sister. Sister got married in and mother being taken care by my family friend cum relatives
2. My mother in law was critically sick, hence I had to sponsor her and take care of her health. Now she is being taken care of family friend cum relative
3. My wife , (qualified CA from india, vast working experience at snr management level in big multinational companies.
2018 onwards , she tried for her new PR process (Express entry/PND), completed WES certification, IELTS but she was little short of points (i guess 62points)
5. Recently came to know about revival process and hired Lawyer to managed to cross my elder son to Canada and successfully got the PR card renewed

note, my wife along with my younger son tried to enter canada thru US border and had long interviews (10hours) & explained above with evidences. Finally , my your son was not allowed n wife was allowed but got section 44. It seems our case is not strong to revive the existing PR but exploring the possible option . Appreciate your valuable input

My queries:
1.wrt SIN Service canada offices some said it is valid for life and some not sure , so asked to check with Lawyer. We don't want benefit but need only for employment. will there any constraints?
2. If my wife is allowed to work atleast a year & attempt to complete canada CPA qualification, what are the chances for new PR thru express entry/PNP ?
3. Pls suggest good experienced lawyer (based in Ontario, Toronto / vicinity) having experience in such cases who can provide holistic view & solution to get PR for wife and subsequent sponsor my younger son & myself ? and any idea how much would be their fees (rough estimate)?
In terms of your reasons for not moving to Canada they are mostly personal choice. You would have been able to financially support your mother and siblings from Canada if necessary. There are others who can care for your mother like they are now. Your younger son without PR, visa or permit would have never been able to enter Canada. He needed a TRV at a minimum and they weren’t guaranteed entrance as a visitor. Sounds like both your children and your wife tried to enter at the same time but when your youngest son was denied entry your wife returned with him to your home country.

1. SIN# is attached to your name remains as long as you have status in Canada. If it isn’t used in a certain amount of time it is put on hold so nobody uses it fraudulently. In the past few years we have seen that some provinces are requiring that you show a valid PR card to reactivate the SIN#. Some provinces are also requesting you show a valid PR card RO get a health card. It’s unclear which provinces are requesting the proof of a valid PR card.
2. As specified in my last post, her time working in Canada can not be used to apply for PR if her appeal is denied. How old is she at the moment? Has she been working as an accountant in your home country in the past 10 years?
 

jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
139
Would add that if your child is attending university they are usually considered an adult and can live independently. Given your minimal ties and not having spent any ti e in Canada your arguments are not strong. Your wife is potentially looking at a long period of separation from you and her other child with no guarantee that she will be able to remain in Canada. Your son was lucky to be able to retain his PR and attend university while paying domestic fees without his family ever being taxpayers.

Because of fraud issues there are more stringent procedures when it comes to reactivating SIN#, getting a health card,etc. In some provinces you are required to show a valid PR card. She will have to see what happens when she tries to activate her SIN#.
I don't understand the disdain for PR "who never paid taxes" yet qualified for in-state tuition. Doesn't the same apply to any newly landed PR, who never paid taxes, yet qualifies for all the benefits from day one? I am so glad this kid got in-state tuition, without his family ever paying taxes. Good for him. If others, newly landed PRs, can get in-state tuition, why shouldn't he?
 
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jakklondon

Hero Member
Oct 17, 2021
582
139
My queries:
1.wrt SIN Service canada offices some said it is valid for life and some not sure , so asked to check with Lawyer. We don't want benefit but need only for employment. will there any constraints?
2. If my wife is allowed to work atleast a year & attempt to complete canada CPA qualification, what are the chances for new PR thru express entry/PNP ?
3. Pls suggest good experienced lawyer (based in Ontario, Toronto / vicinity) having experience in such cases who can provide holistic view & solution to get PR for wife and subsequent sponsor my younger son & myself ? and any idea how much would be their fees (rough estimate)?
1. SIN is permanent. As long as one is PR ,not stripped of status and not ordered deported, they are entitled to benefits extended to PRs (obviously, with all the requirements applicable to other PRs in place, such as length of residency or intent to reside permanently to qualify for medicare and etc.).
As such, they have a right to work and should proceed to use SIN they have. She may have hard time logging into her account if it's dormant, but I don't see a reason why she as a PR can't use a SIN she was issued to work. If denied a right to get what one is entitled to - SUE, take it to court!

2. I don't know about EE/PNP requirements, will defer this to other members to address.

3. Did you try to contact one of the attorneys at canadavisa.com ? Ask for a free consultation with one of the attorneys, tell them your circumstances. It's a legitimate company. If your wife has legal grounds to get PR, they will take her case. If she doesn't, they will honestly say she can't retain/obtain PR status in Canada. I don't know about fees. It depends on complexity of your case and how much the firm charges per hour (some charge a flat fee, if it's relatively straightforward case, such as filling out paperwork to apply for the benefit one has qualifications for).
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,062
12,800
I don't understand the disdain for PR "who never paid taxes" yet qualified for in-state tuition. Doesn't the same apply to any newly landed PR, who never paid taxes, yet qualifies for all the benefits from day one? I am so glad this kid got in-state tuition, without his family ever paying taxes. Good for him. If others, newly landed PRs, can get in-state tuition, why shouldn't he?
New PRs didn’t have the option to pay taxes. Many international students have spent more time than this child in Canada and the whole family had not even come close to ever meeting their RO. They should also pay international tuition. People in Canada pay high taxes for benefits like lowered tuition compared to international students.