PGP 2020

[dawn_canada]

Not so simple.

The whole process of a legal suit is draining.

Because you have to respond and defend yourself. This is something people would prefer not to go through.

On a smaller scale think of it as a customer complaining to the manager or company about a particular staff. The complaint could be totally nonsense and based on fabricated events. But the staff has to answer. The company has to investigate and respond.

They are called vexatious complaints. There are also vexatious lawsuits.

I believe this is unavoidable in any stream and case.

 

[nayr69sg]

@dawn_canada I have been around this forum from 2017 when my parents felt ready to apply for PR. It just so happened that they switched to the lousy lottery system.

Remember that the interest to sponsor can be submitted by anyone with an email address. It could be non Canadians and PRs as well. We found so many asking silly questions that showed they do not qualify or meet requirements and wasted spots.

Hence it was very frustrating for people like myself.

We had many discussion. @Rob_TO was one of the more objective people and I have missed him/her.

But yeah discussed many times. Lots of suggestions. I even suggested having an open bidding system where people can bid for a spot in PGP. Top 10,000 will pay the 10,000th ranked bid. So say of the top 10,000 you rank them from highest bid to 10,000th. Say the top bid is $1 million. And the 10,000th is $550 then all 10,000 will pay $550 each for the right to sponsor.

But if 10,000th bid is $10,000 then all pay $10,000. It is just a way to ensure people bid what they are really willing to pay. But if really 10,000 are willing to pay $5000 and above then the price goes up. It is great way for Canada to make some money as well. It wont cover the cost of the healthcare of course but helps with running costs.

I basically am following the Certificate of Entitlement (COE) system in Singapore. This is how Singapore determines who can purchase a car. It is a way to allocate high in demand very limited spots to people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement

 

[nayr69sg]

I believe this is unavoidable in any stream and case.

Not exactly. You see in the end it is the lawyers who advise the clients if they should continue to go ahead with the suit.

So if you do work the system in a way where there is no money involved. The lawyers will not take the case.

The government unfortunately has money.

Perhaps one way is for the government to setup a government linked private enterprise to handle the process. It can be setup such that the enterprise has a limited asset or cash holdings and thus a limited liability.

This is for the lawyers and accountants to work out.

All lawsuits are about money. Take away the money and the lawyers will not take the case. No lawyer will act for a client to sue a homeless man who has no assets and no insurance.

 

[nayr69sg]

We should find a way to bring this to the Minster of Immigration to consider this, when sponsoring person takes the responsibility of his parents financially and its health-care then what is hurdle in given them visa. Agree with you!

Yes I believe that if they take the health care coverage out then the demand will drop considerably.

Basically have super visa health care insurance requirements a part of the PR granting process.

Maybe only after 10 years then the health care cover kicks in.

Many ways to reduce the demand or how to distribute the resources "fairly".

A total random lottery though seemingly "fair" trivializes the process and insults children and parents alike.

Lotteries are games. Gaming industry. Or in professional sport with the draft picks also as a lottery.

Is sponsoring parents to Canada a game? A sport? If not then dont use a lottery system.

 

[dawn_canada]

@dawn_canada I have been around this forum from 2017 when my parents felt ready to apply for PR. It just so happened that they switched to the lousy lottery system.

Remember that the interest to sponsor can be submitted by anyone with an email address. It could be non Canadians and PRs as well. We found so many asking silly questions that showed they do not qualify or meet requirements and wasted spots.

Hence it was very frustrating for people like myself.

We had many discussion. @Rob_TO was one of the more objective people and I have missed him/her.

But yeah discussed many times. Lots of suggestions. I even suggested having an open bidding system where people can bid for a spot in PGP. Top 10,000 will pay the 10,000th ranked bid. So say of the top 10,000 you rank them from highest bid to 10,000th. Say the top bid is $1 million. And the 10,000th is $550 then all 10,000 will pay $550 each for the right to sponsor.

But if 10,000th bid is $10,000 then all pay $10,000. It is just a way to ensure people bid what they are really willing to pay. But if really 10,000 are willing to pay $5000 and above then the price goes up. It is great way for Canada to make some money as well. It wont cover the cost of the healthcare of course but helps with running costs.

I basically am following the Certificate of Entitlement (COE) system in Singapore. This is how Singapore determines who can purchase a car. It is a way to allocate high in demand very limited spots to people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement

I have lived in Singapore over there having a car is luxury not necessity, government has very good public transport. But I did not like the idea of bidding because Canada is welfare country, it does not align with their rules/rituals.

 

[nayr69sg]

I have lived in Singapore over there having a car is luxury not necessity, government has very good public transport. But I did not like the idea of bidding because Canada is welfare country, it does not align with their rules/rituals.

I agree to some extent. Is a car really a luxury? In Singapore if you are elderly or have several young children in tow it is much more convenient to have a personal vehicle. Singapore's problem isnt the car per se it is space. Limited space.

If you ask some members here they will also say that PGP is a program Canada cannot afford ie a luxury to have.

Is Canada a welfare country? Some members here will disagree as well. I hope most immigrants do not come to Canada thinking of getting welfare at every turn because that's not good for the country.

Anyway these are just ideas I throw out for discussion.

PGP is quite unique to Canada among first world countries. So I would say that immigrants should be thankful and appreciative that we have it. Some will say it is their "right" because they "pay taxes" which is absurd and a misplaced sense of entitlement.

I still think that PGP being a high demand limited resource should be allocated by merit rather than random.

What kind of merits is something to be discussed and worked out of course.

You will have some who feel that any criteria based on merit is "discriminatory" and "unfair".

You can't please everyone. But I will state that I am strongly against the lottery for the reasons I have mentioned. PGP is not a trivial game or serious sport. So lottery is a bad way to allocate it.

 

[Kelon]

Other idea could be if healthcare is burden, and family reunification is government's preference then give conditional PR that parents can live and work here but cannot access public health care of initial 4 years.(As currently in BC and ON there is wait period of 3 months).

it’s a good idea but I don’t think this is the problem IRCC is facing now for this program. They accepted 27,000 application and there were 100,000 who tried to applied. That’s a massive gap! A higher requirement threshold that is fair is the way to go this time!

 

[canuck78]

it’s a good idea but I don’t think this is the problem IRCC is facing now for this program. They accepted 27,000 application and there were 100,000 who tried to applied. That’s a massive gap! A higher requirement threshold that is fair is the way to go this time!

What do you mean a higher LICO? LICO is pretty low to begin with. Applications are supposed to go back to 21k this year. The 27k was due to the lawsuits. Think many will still exceed the LICO amount or will cash in RRSPs or suddenly discover cash income they forgot about and refile. There will always be more demand than spots.

 

[canuck78]

Yes I believe that if they take the health care coverage out then the demand will drop considerably.

Basically have super visa health care insurance requirements a part of the PR granting process.

Maybe only after 10 years then the health care cover kicks in.

Many ways to reduce the demand or how to distribute the resources "fairly".

A total random lottery though seemingly "fair" trivializes the process and insults children and parents alike.

Lotteries are games. Gaming industry. Or in professional sport with the draft picks also as a lottery.

Is sponsoring parents to Canada a game? A sport? If not then dont use a lottery system.

You know that won’t work. First access to medicare is one of the rights as a PR or citizen. In order to not qualify for Medicare parents would need to receive something like a longterm PGP status. Supervisa insurance only covers emergencies and may not cover emergencies relating to preexisting conditions. Most sponsored parents will not want to return home if they need more medical treatment or will not repay medical expenses unless their families agree to repay. It will be hard to collect when/if senior dies. Many of these seniors will have preexisting conditions or need regular medical care. Insurance rates to cover regular care and preexisting conditions will be extremely expensive and who would get priority when it comes to non-emergency situations? Canadians with medicare recipients normally get priority so the parents would have to wait a long time to get to get care.

 

[nayr69sg]

What do you mean a higher LICO? LICO is pretty low to begin with. Applications are supposed to go back to 21k this year. The 27k was due to the lawsuits. Think many will still exceed the LICO amount or will cash in RRSPs or suddenly discover cash income they forgot about and refile. There will always be more demand than spots.

Once you base it using the term LICO there is no such thing as "higher" LICO cut offs. LICO is not determined with PGP in mind. PGP uses LICO as a guide.

 

[canuck78]

Not exactly. You see in the end it is the lawyers who advise the clients if they should continue to go ahead with the suit.

So if you do work the system in a way where there is no money involved. The lawyers will not take the case.

The government unfortunately has money.

Perhaps one way is for the government to setup a government linked private enterprise to handle the process. It can be setup such that the enterprise has a limited asset or cash holdings and thus a limited liability.

This is for the lawyers and accountants to work out.

All lawsuits are about money. Take away the money and the lawyers will not take the case. No lawyer will act for a client to sue a homeless man who has no assets and no insurance.

This is a low priority immigration process. The government will definitely not pay to set-up a private organization for PGP. If anything they would pay for high skilled workers who are needed by employers right away. That won’t happen either.

 

[nayr69sg]

You know that won’t work. First access to medicare is one of the rights as a PR or citizen. In order to not qualify for Medicare parents would need to receive something like a longterm PGP status. Supervisa insurance only covers emergencies and may not cover emergencies relating to preexisting conditions. Most sponsored parents will not want to return home if they need more medical treatment or will not repay medical expenses unless their families agree to repay. It will be hard to collect when/if senior dies. Many of these seniors will have preexisting conditions or need regular medical care. Insurance rates to cover regular care and preexisting conditions will be extremely expensive and who would get priority when it comes to non-emergency situations? Canadians with medicare recipients normally get priority so the parents would have to wait a long time to get to get care.

Yes agreed

Once the parents are granted something called PR it will be open to complaints and lawsuits if they dont receive the same benefits as other PRs. It wont work.

Which is also why you should stop complaining about how these parents drain the healthcare and what not without saying that you are outright against PGP and want it canceled altogether.

You do wish that PGP could be canceled and done away with. Correct?

 

[nayr69sg]

This is a low priority immigration process. The government will definitely not pay to set-up a private organization for PGP. If anything they would pay for high skilled workers who are needed by employers right away. That won’t happen either.

Yes and that is why government will always be a target for lawsuits if they keep the current structure.

Can the government set up separate government linked private entities to oversee certain processes? They can. But as with you, many will will say no it cant be done.

Whatever happened to the thinking out of the box to try and get things done with the least problems?

The Canadian legal system being so open and accommodating to any legal challenges makes it difficult to do things in Canada. Some Canadians will say this is fair and justice.

Well then dont complain about inefficiencies and road blocks, red tape and bureaucracy.

 

[Kelon]

What do you mean a higher LICO? LICO is pretty low to begin with. Applications are supposed to go back to 21k this year. The 27k was due to the lawsuits. Think many will still exceed the LICO amount or will cash in RRSPs or suddenly discover cash income they forgot about and refile. There will always be more demand than spots.

Didn’t mention LICO. Higher requirements threshold can be filtering with years of income tax payment, citizenship and all that was already mentioned.

 

[canuck78]

Yes and that is why government will always be a target for lawsuits if they keep the current structure.

Can the government set up separate government linked private entities to oversee certain processes? They can. But as with you, many will will say no it cant be done.

Whatever happened to the thinking out of the box to try and get things done with the least problems?

The Canadian legal system being so open and accommodating to any legal challenges makes it difficult to do things in Canada. Some Canadians will say this is fair and justice.

Well then dont complain about inefficiencies and road blocks, red tape and bureaucracy.

Even private enterprises won’t be able to find a system that everyone is happy with. Fundamentally people will continue to complain unless every parent and grandparent who qualifies to be accepted as fast as possible. When it comes to prioritizing where the government spends their money the PGP program is very low on the list so they won’t be hiring an outside organization to create a very complex PGP program.