Student Permit for Presumptive Canadian Citizen
- Thread starter BarryKG
- Start date
You seem to be referring to direct correspondence you have had with IRCC. Obviously, none of us can refute or comment on correspondence that has not been shared in full, or even more so any other type of communication (eg verbal).
All we can say is what seems to be indicated by official government communications and publications and (to the extent there are any) actual cases seen here. If you wish to disagree, you can do so, or ignore what others have said here - best of luck. Please note though: mistakes or miscommunications from government employees can happen - either at the fault of the government employee or a simple misunderstanding. Misunderstandings happen frequently, often if one side and the other understand meanings of terms differently.
That said:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/temporary-residents/visitors/facilitation-visas.html
Another source of such misunderstandings is if one department/section is answering questions that really are the responsibility of another - such as, in your case, questions about citizenship where the consular section is in charge and the visa section can only 'facilitate': "Canadian citizens abroad are the responsibility of the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development (DFATD), and not CIC. A Canadian citizen who wishes to travel to Canada should be referred to the Consular section if they do not have a Canadian passport. There are, however, exceptional circumstances where CIC can facilitate the travel of a dual national by placing a facilitation visa counterfoil into the passport of the Canadian's other nationality." My editorial comment: this means if someone from IRCC tells you something, it's quite possible they don't know because it's ... not their department. Literally. (And from some experience, I can tell you that I think there is zero chance a visa section will issue such a vsia without the sign-off of the senior consular officer).
This official publication does not appear to fit the points that you say you were told (or that you're claiming to be facts that I can't see anywhere).
-A TRV and a student visa and a facilitation visa are, I believe, entirely different things, with different codes attached (although they all look like visas inserted in passport). I don't believe they can issue a 'student permit' to a Canadian citizen - period. Neither is the process the same as 'anyone else.'
-The page I linked to shows quite clearly it's a rare procedure, usually only issued in rare and/or limited circumstances, including which (normally) that it's an urgent matter.
-I agree they cannot 'require' your daughter to renounce citizenship. But they can refuse to issue visas if the request doesn't meet the requirements.
-You can read through that doc - I don't see that your case obviously fits the requirements but I can't attest to that (you can argue it does, of course, and I don't know all the facts).
I posted earlier, that I don't believe that is the case for Indonesian citizens under the age of 21. I admit though I do not know how that works but also note from the doc above: "it is not the policy of CIC to assist persons who wish to 'hide' the fact of their Canadian citizenship from a foreign government that does not permit dual citizenship." There are of course other parts of policy in that same document which can be interpreted differently, so I suspect it will depend on the circumstances.
As a life long lawyer, can you tell me that it would be unlawful for an official to tell you that IF your daughter wishes to get a student permit, she cannot receive one as a citizen and hence that the only way to get one is to renounce citizenship? (Assuming of course my point is correct that foreign nationals cnnot be issued student permits). It seems to me that the simple answer is that the response of the official can be correct and not 'pressure' if you have insisted on something that is not lawful for them to do.
No. First of all, a Canadian citizen is NOT a foreign national - period. They may hold some other citizenship, but that has close to zero legal meaning under Canadian law. I assume this applies to a presumptive Canadian citizen equally.
If Canadian law states that Canadian citizens cannot be issued visas (certain types of visas) or that they can only be issued to 'foreign nationals', then there's no question of discrimination, period.
Could you please provide a source for this? Not from the university, but a public doc.
I have never heard of such a thing or policy on either the federal or provincial level (at least Ontario) - certainly not federal, as it's not a federal responsibility.
This is a rather grandiose claim, the basis for which I do not see.
I didn't clearly realize that your daughter can't have dual citizenship. That definitely complicates the situation.
IMO you may need an immigration lawyer's help with this. This does feel like a more complicated situation and none of us here are immigration lawyers or work for IRCC.
I don't have any advice to provide on how to navigate out of this. This is above my level of knowledge.
This is a provincial level policy. I think you can find it somewhere in this document:
https://www.ontario.ca/page/tuition-and-ancillary-fees-policy-framework-colleges-applied-arts-and-technology
Thanks. Only had chance to do very quick skim but seem to have missed the part that says "foreign nationals who are dependent on a Canadian citizen are charged fees on the domestic fee scale despite being a foreign student." Will try to read it more detailed later.
Is this a recent change (assuming correct)?
This may not be the right link. I don't think it's a new rule to the best of my knowledge. It's not phrased quite the way you've said. It states something along the lines of dependents of Canadian citizens and permanent residents (i.e. the status of the dependent is irrelevant and the tuition is determine based on the status of their parent). I don't remember the exact wording.
Found it for you. On page 30.
A person who is a spouse or dependent family member of a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident
As @armoured mentioned in his/her first post, under Article 6 of Law 12/2006, Indonesian citizenship law was amended in 2006 to allow children that acquired another country's citizenship by descent to hold dual citizenship until the age of 18, or to apply to extend dual citizenship until the age of 21. You could have applied for your daughter's Canadian citizenship without loss of her Indonesian citizenship since 2006. In any case, your daughter will need to choose which citizenship to keep under Indonesian law when she turns 21.
Just to note: my point in referring to this was not about what the OP should have done in the past, but about what is possible to do now - and, crucially, that I suspect it will affect what IRCC/Global Affairs will be willing to do in the specific circumstances.
For just one example, how they will interpret the operational guidelines about facilitation visas, as they clearly interact with local rules about (forbidding) dual citizenship. And beyond that, on specifics, I don't want to speculate any more except to say that it is relevant that the Indonesian ban on dual citizenship isn't total and may not (currently) affect the daughter.
I was just giving you credit for being the first poster to mention dual citizenship in Indonesia; what the OP could have done was just my comment. Anyway, if the daughter is to start university, that would mean that she is already or close to the age of 18 and is already at or near that time under Indonesian law to officially pick a citizenship, or delay for three more years; that's one more thing the OP has to address now.
I didn't mean as a criticism of your post, just a note that it potentially has an impact on how IRCC/Global Affairs will approach the questions surrounding dual citizenship and how the facilitation visa policy is written (and they may also comment that this could have been done any time in 18 years, so, ummm, urgency is self-created, and get less sympathy - for the parents if not the daughter).
No offense taken, nor did I see your post as criticism; just pointing out the facts
. Anyway, I agree with you; this is one of the pitfalls of dual citizenship. Neither country has any obligation to accommodate a dual citizen's inconvenience caused by the policies of the other country, and it is the duty of the dual citizen to know the policies and laws of both countries. So, I don't believe IRCC has to do anything to accommodate or change their policies because of situations like this case.