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RO Question ?

qureishi

Hero Member
Dec 9, 2011
283
34
Hi Friends,

I did my soft landing on 15 Aug 2015 and stay in Toronto until 31st Aug 2018 and then returned to my home country.

My three years outside Canada is going to be complete by 15 Aug 2018 or 31st Aug 2018 ? Am going to meet RO , if I moved in by 31st Aug 2018 ?

What is the time period required to renew the PR card ?

Thanks in advance..
 

Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
13,190
2,419
From date of landing August 15 2018 through 14 August 2020 you must accumulate 730 days in Canada so if you return August 31 2018 you will be short by approx 16/17 days in the first 5 years since landing.

Assuming you manage to come back in August 31 without being reported, nobody here can predict, although if you have a valid PR card you may be ok you would need to stay in Canada and not apply to renew your card until mid to end September 2020 or even leave it until October 2020.
 
Last edited:

qureishi

Hero Member
Dec 9, 2011
283
34
From date of landing August 15 2018 through 14 August 2020 you must accumulate 730 days in Canada so if you return August 31 2018 you will be short by approx 16/17 days in the first 5 years since landing.

Assuming you manage to come back in August 31 without being reported, nobody here can predict, although if you have a valid PR card you may be ok you would need to stay in Canada and not apply to renew your card until mid to end September 2020 or even leave it until October 2020.
Thanks for your reply.But how I will be short by 16/17 days if I moved by Aug 31 2018 ? Because I stay in Canada from Aug 15 2015 until Aug 31 2015 during my soft landing, are these days not going to be count ?
 

qureishi

Hero Member
Dec 9, 2011
283
34
That would also mean stay for 2 straight years, no family emergencies, work trips out of Canada, etc.
Thanks.But as per my calculation , if if I moved by Aug 31 2018 I can go out of Canada for two weeks in case of family emergency. Because I stay in Canada from Aug 15 2015 until Aug 31 2015 during my soft landing, are these days not going to be count ?
 

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,304
2,166
Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
Thanks.But as per my calculation , if if I moved by Aug 31 2018 I can go out of Canada for two weeks in case of family emergency. Because I stay in Canada from Aug 15 2015 until Aug 31 2015 during my soft landing, are these days not going to be count ?
Yes, they will count until 15 Aug 2020. Then they will start to move outside of the 5 years rolling period. You are leaving very little time for emergencies however.
 

qureishi

Hero Member
Dec 9, 2011
283
34
Yes, they will count until 15 Aug 2020. Then they will start to move outside of the 5 years rolling period. You are leaving very little time for emergencies however.
Thanks.It mean if I move by 31 Aug 2018 , then I have 15 days in buffer ?
 

zardoz

VIP Member
Feb 2, 2013
13,304
2,166
Canada
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
London
App. Filed.......
16-02-2013
VISA ISSUED...
31-07-2013
LANDED..........
09-11-2013
Thanks.It mean if I move by 31 Aug 2018 , then I have 15 days in buffer ?
No, it doesn't mean that. From 31 Aug 2015 to 31 Aug 2018, you will have already spent 1093 days outside canada, giving you a day credit for the day you left and the day you return. The limit is 1095 days. You actually only have 2 days buffer.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,297
3,062
In addition to and apart from the astute observations by @zardoz as to a more or less precise calculation, which should be taken seriously, REMEMBER that CBSA and IRCC do not have a crystal ball, there is no precise database of an individual PR's presence that CBSA or IRCC will entirely rely upon. The burden of proving presence is always on the PR. This is a real burden.

The discussion here warrants a reminder about the risks associated with cutting-it-close.

In particular, playing a cutting-it-close game so close that a few days makes the difference is so risky as to be foolish if keeping PR status is a priority for the PR.


To be clear: cutting-it-this-close, as close as you are contemplating, can be especially risky.

The risk is about more than the precise calculation for meeting the MINIMUM amount of presence necessary to comply with PR obligations.

There are real risks apart from and in addition to the risk of potential emergencies or compelling personal circumstances, apart from situations compelling going abroad again. That is, there are risks even if in actual fact the PR is present enough days to meet the PR RO since what really can matter, if IRCC has concerns, is PROVING that amount of presence.

The extent of risk can depend on how clearly it appears the PR has fully settled and is permanently living in Canada. Make no mistake, however, this is about appearances. Appearances matter. Especially for a PR who is cutting-it-close. Sure, the actual facts matter too, a lot. And there is a strong correlation between the actual facts and appearances.

But unless and until a PR who has been abroad for years has come to Canada and settled in Canada for years, until then the appearance tends to be the PR has NOT settled in Canada permanently.

SUMMARY: Unless and until a PR has been living and otherwise settled in Canada permanently, for the PR cutting-it-close there are serious risks apart from, and over and above, the precise calculation. A two week margin, let alone merely a few days margin, MIGHT NOT be good enough if IRCC has concerns and is skeptical about the PR's compliance. Reminder: PRs with as much as 900 days presence, near continuous presence for nearly two and a half years (and occasionally more), have an elevated risk of Secondary Review when they apply for a new PR card.

Further Caution: this is about the risk of a negative PR RO determination, the risk of losing PR status. Additionally, the PR cutting-it-close faces the risk of less severe but nonetheless oft times problematic issues. Like a PR card application being referred to SR and taking a year, a year during which the PR has NO PR card, making travel abroad more risky . . . to return to Canada during that year the PR card is in process the PR will need to either obtain a PR Travel Document or travel via the U.S. and cross the border using private transportation, and while abroad is subject to the statutory presumption that the PR does NOT have valid PR status (see Section 31.(2)(b) (should link) IRPA).

This forum is rife with tales of woe, more than occasional wailing and gnashing of teeth, among those who were cutting-it-close, and fell short, one way or another.


Longer explanation:

For a PR who has been outside Canada for nearly three years, it will take nearly THREE YEARS presence in Canada before the PR has been in Canada as much as the PR has been abroad. Thus, for nearly three years after coming to Canada and settling in Canada and STAYING in Canada, and then ONLY TO THE EXTENT THIS IS PROVEN, any time the PR is subject to an examination as to compliance with the PR RO, for any day the PR does not affirmatively prove actual presence in Canada it would be REASONABLE for CBSA or IRCC (during a PoE examination, for example, or a PR card application or PR TD application) to INFER THE PR WAS OUTSIDE CANADA, since that is where the PR was most of the time.

That is, for any day which it is not certain the PR was in Canada, a fact-finder can reasonably infer the PR was likely where the PR was most of the time during the preceding five years or so. And thus, if the PR was abroad more than in Canada, it would be reasonable for CBSA or IRCC to infer the PR was NOT in Canada unless the PR has affirmatively proved presence for any particular day.

For example, the PR reports being present in Canada 15 Aug 2015 until 31st Aug 2015, and the records and documentation do indeed verify the PR entered Canada 15 Aug 2015 and departed Canada 31 Aug 2015. That proves the PR was in Canada TWO DAYS regarding which it would be unreasonable to conclude presence for any less than FOUR days (since it is highly unlikely the PR left before the next day after arriving, and highly likely the PR was in Canada at least the day before the exit).

What about August 17 through August 29, back in 2015. What proves the PR was in Canada those days? Remember, again, the burden of proving presence those days is on the PR. If IRCC can reasonably infer the POSSIBILITY the PR was not in Canada any of those days, that means the PR has the burden of affirmatively proving presence those days.

For example, can you prove you did not spend a week or ten days in the U.S. during that period of time, back in 2015?

CBSA and IRCC do NOT ordinarily approach most PRs that skeptically. BUT in many circumstances it may be reasonable to do so. And for a PR cutting-it-close and particularly one cutting-it-so-close as you are contemplating, it would not take much to tip the scales toward more skepticism.

There seems to be a pervasive sense that PRs can rely on CBSA and IRCC counting all days between a reported date-of-entry and the next reported date-of-exit. Sure, that is a typical INFERENCE. That inference goes like this: so long as there is no indication the PR exited Canada in-between a reported date-of-entry and the next reported date-of-exit, the PR was in fact in Canada between those dates.

IRCC does not rely on this inference alone EVEN for PRs who are well settled in Canada and who have been mostly living and staying in Canada. In a PR card or PR TD application, for example, IRCC requires the PR to include corroborating (supporting) information, including address and work history, and IRCC will often compare the PR's information to information in other sources, ranging from government sources like CBSA travel history records, to open source information such as considering any information a PR appears to have shared on the Internet (LinkedIn appears to be frequently probed for information about PRs).

It is worth remembering that IRCC's inquiries in this regard are not focused much on what will show the PR's presence BUT rather it is mostly focused on looking for indications of inconsistencies, discrepancies, omissions, or other types of error or misrepresentation. This means any MISTAKE by the PR can trigger IRCC to be more skeptical about the PR's accounting of information, especially the PR's accounting of travel dates, and the latter especially so if there are any inconsistencies or discrepancies tending to indicate the POSSIBILITY the PR was abroad some day the PR reported being present in Canada.

One discrepancy which pops up in more than a few of the officially published IAD decisions, in actual cases, is the PR's reference to job experience in LinkedIn which is NOT reflected in the PR's work history.

The more common discrepancy identified by IRCC is a mistake in the travel history. One or two minor errors, like being off by a day or two, NO big deal. Even a somewhat short omission, like a week or even three, will NOT ordinarily cause IRCC to go into a severely skeptical approach (but of course the PR needs a margin over the minimum to accommodate any such discrepancy). But of course any mistake, even if small, can nudge IRCC toward greater skepticism if there are other reasons to be skeptical.

Like cutting-it-so-close as to appear NOT really settling in Canada permanently. Add to that some little mistakes, like reporting a date-of-exit based on a passport stamp showing entry into another country on that date, when it is quite likely the exit from Canada was at least a day or more earlier. Again, the latter is ordinarily NO big deal, even though the inaccuracy does show the PR cannot be relied upon to be entirely accurate, but in conjunction with other things tending to raise questions or concerns, and especially in the case of a PR who has been outside Canada more than in Canada (thus appearing to not be fully settled and living in Canada permanently), the scales may tip.

I have barely scratched the surface of little things which can add up to IRCC taking a more severe approach to assessing the PR's declarations of presence. In conjunction with cutting-it-close, the risks can increase dramatically. To some extent, perhaps a large extent, once it is readily clear the PR has indeed fully settled in Canada, is living in Canada permanently, IRCC tends to NOT be so strict . . . in which circumstances cutting-it-close is NOT so risky. BUT until and unless it is clear the PR is fully settled in Canada, is living in Canada permanently, cutting-it-close is risky and cutting-it-this-close, as close as you are contemplating, can be especially risky.
 
Last edited:

qureishi

Hero Member
Dec 9, 2011
283
34
In addition to and apart from the astute observations by @zardoz as to a more or less precise calculation, which should be taken seriously, REMEMBER that CBSA and IRCC do not have a crystal ball, there is no precise database of an individual PR's presence that CBSA or IRCC will entirely rely upon. The burden of proving presence is always on the PR. This is a real burden.

The discussion here warrants a reminder about the risks associated with cutting-it-close.

In particular, playing a cutting-it-close game so close that a few days makes the difference is so risky as to be foolish if keeping PR status is a priority for the PR.


To be clear: cutting-it-this-close, as close as you are contemplating, can be especially risky.

The risk is about more than the precise calculation for meeting the MINIMUM amount of presence necessary to comply with PR obligations.

There are real risks apart from and in addition to the risk of potential emergencies or compelling personal circumstances, apart from situations compelling going abroad again. That is, there are risks even if in actual fact the PR is present enough days to meet the PR RO since what really can matter, if IRCC has concerns, is PROVING that amount of presence.

The extent of risk can depend on how clearly it appears the PR has fully settled and is permanently living in Canada. Make no mistake, however, this is about appearances. Appearances matter. Especially for a PR who is cutting-it-close. Sure, the actual facts matter too, a lot. And there is a strong correlation between the actual facts and appearances.

But unless and until a PR who has been abroad for years has come to Canada and settled in Canada for years, until then the appearance tends to be the PR has NOT settled in Canada permanently.

SUMMARY: Unless and until a PR has been living and otherwise settled in Canada permanently, for the PR cutting-it-close there are serious risks apart from, and over and above, the precise calculation. A two week margin, let alone merely a few days margin, MIGHT NOT be good enough if IRCC has concerns and is skeptical about the PR's compliance. Reminder: PRs with as much as 900 days presence, near continuous presence for nearly two and a half years (and occasionally more), have an elevated risk of Secondary Review when they apply for a new PR card.

Further Caution: this is about the risk of a negative PR RO determination, the risk of losing PR status. Additionally, the PR cutting-it-close faces the risk of less severe but nonetheless oft times problematic issues. Like a PR card application being referred to SR and taking a year, a year during which the PR has NO PR card, making travel abroad more risky . . . to return to Canada during that year the PR card is in process the PR will need to either obtain a PR Travel Document or travel via the U.S. and cross the border using private transportation, and while abroad is subject to the statutory presumption that the PR does NOT have valid PR status (see Section 31.(2)(b) (should link) IRPA).

This forum is rife with tales of woe, more than occasional wailing and gnashing of teeth, among those who were cutting-it-close, and fell short, one way or another.


Longer explanation:

For a PR who has been outside Canada for nearly three years, it will take nearly THREE YEARS presence in Canada before the PR has been in Canada as much as the PR has been abroad. Thus, for nearly three years after coming to Canada and settling in Canada and STAYING in Canada, and then ONLY TO THE EXTENT THIS IS PROVEN, any time the PR is subject to an examination as to compliance with the PR RO, for any day the PR does not affirmatively prove actual presence in Canada it would be REASONABLE for CBSA or IRCC (during a PoE examination, for example, or a PR card application or PR TD application) to INFER THE PR WAS OUTSIDE CANADA, since that is where the PR was most of the time.

That is, for any day which it is not certain the PR was in Canada, a fact-finder can reasonably infer the PR was likely where the PR was most of the time during the preceding five years or so. And thus, if the PR was abroad more than in Canada, it would be reasonable for CBSA or IRCC to infer the PR was NOT in Canada unless the PR has affirmatively proved presence for any particular day.

For example, the PR reports being present in Canada 15 Aug 2015 until 31st Aug 2015, and the records and documentation do indeed verify the PR entered Canada 15 Aug 2015 and departed Canada 31 Aug 2015. That proves the PR was in Canada TWO DAYS regarding which it would be unreasonable to conclude presence for any less than FOUR days (since it is highly unlikely the PR left before the next day after arriving, and highly likely the PR was in Canada at least the day before the exit).

What about August 17 through August 29, back in 2015. What proves the PR was in Canada those days? Remember, again, the burden of proving presence those days is on the PR. If IRCC can reasonably infer the POSSIBILITY the PR was not in Canada any of those days, that means the PR has the burden of affirmatively proving presence those days.

For example, can you prove you did not spend a week or ten days in the U.S. during that period of time, back in 2015?

CBSA and IRCC do NOT ordinarily approach most PRs that skeptically. BUT in many circumstances it may be reasonable to do so. And for a PR cutting-it-close and particularly one cutting-it-so-close as you are contemplating, it would not take much to tip the scales toward more skepticism.

There seems to be a pervasive sense that PRs can rely on CBSA and IRCC counting all days between a reported date-of-entry and the next reported date-of-exit. Sure, that is a typical INFERENCE. That inference goes like this: so long as there is no indication the PR exited Canada in-between a reported date-of-entry and the next reported date-of-exit, the PR was in fact in Canada between those dates.

IRCC does not rely on this inference alone EVEN for PRs who are well settled in Canada and who have been mostly living and staying in Canada. In a PR card or PR TD application, for example, IRCC requires the PR to include corroborating (supporting) information, including address and work history, and IRCC will often compare the PR's information to information in other sources, ranging from government sources like CBSA travel history records, to open source information such as considering any information a PR appears to have shared on the Internet (LinkedIn appears to be frequently probed for information about PRs).


Thank you for the detailed reply and efforts. much appreciated..
Regards
Q.
 

Teshrbrt

Newbie
Jul 31, 2018
1
0
Hello guys,

I've been a PR since Nov. 25,2009. On my first 5 years in Canada I only travelled once for 2 months in year 2012 and got my PR renewed in April 27,2015. On July 26, 2016 I and my Canadian husband travelled together to visit my sick mother in my home country. In 15 days after he flew back to Canada alone. I chose to stay longer and planning to return later end of this year 2018.

Since I'm a PR for more than 5 years so the rolling 5 year period would be applied on calculating days of my presence in Canada. I've drawn up a rough calculation for you to review guys. My return date is Dec. 29,2018.

Here goes:
Nov.25, '09 date landed
do.......'10 365
do.......'11 365
do.......'12 305 (out for 2 mo.=60 days)
Nov.25, '13 331
________________________________
Dec.29, '14- 365 days
do.......'15- 365 days -got renewed PR April 27, 2015
do......'16- 210days( out 5mo.& 5 days=155 days)
do......'17- 0 (Out 365 )
Dec.29 '18- 0 return date (Out 365 )
________________________________
Total days in Canada -940 days
Total outside Canada- 885 days

Any corrections from you guys is highly appreciated. Thanks in advance. ;)
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,053
12,795
Yes looks right. You're going to start losing your days so good that you are coming back to bank some more time.
 

ch671

Star Member
Mar 22, 2017
129
25
In addition to and apart from the astute observations by @zardoz as to a more or less precise calculation, which should be taken seriously, REMEMBER that CBSA and IRCC do not have a crystal ball, there is no precise database of an individual PR's presence that CBSA or IRCC will entirely rely upon. The burden of proving presence is always on the PR. This is a real burden.

The discussion here warrants a reminder about the risks associated with cutting-it-close.

In particular, playing a cutting-it-close game so close that a few days makes the difference is so risky as to be foolish if keeping PR status is a priority for the PR.


To be clear: cutting-it-this-close, as close as you are contemplating, can be especially risky.

The risk is about more than the precise calculation for meeting the MINIMUM amount of presence necessary to comply with PR obligations.

There are real risks apart from and in addition to the risk of potential emergencies or compelling personal circumstances, apart from situations compelling going abroad again. That is, there are risks even if in actual fact the PR is present enough days to meet the PR RO since what really can matter, if IRCC has concerns, is PROVING that amount of presence.

The extent of risk can depend on how clearly it appears the PR has fully settled and is permanently living in Canada. Make no mistake, however, this is about appearances. Appearances matter. Especially for a PR who is cutting-it-close. Sure, the actual facts matter too, a lot. And there is a strong correlation between the actual facts and appearances.

But unless and until a PR who has been abroad for years has come to Canada and settled in Canada for years, until then the appearance tends to be the PR has NOT settled in Canada permanently.

SUMMARY: Unless and until a PR has been living and otherwise settled in Canada permanently, for the PR cutting-it-close there are serious risks apart from, and over and above, the precise calculation. A two week margin, let alone merely a few days margin, MIGHT NOT be good enough if IRCC has concerns and is skeptical about the PR's compliance. Reminder: PRs with as much as 900 days presence, near continuous presence for nearly two and a half years (and occasionally more), have an elevated risk of Secondary Review when they apply for a new PR card.

Further Caution: this is about the risk of a negative PR RO determination, the risk of losing PR status. Additionally, the PR cutting-it-close faces the risk of less severe but nonetheless oft times problematic issues. Like a PR card application being referred to SR and taking a year, a year during which the PR has NO PR card, making travel abroad more risky . . . to return to Canada during that year the PR card is in process the PR will need to either obtain a PR Travel Document or travel via the U.S. and cross the border using private transportation, and while abroad is subject to the statutory presumption that the PR does NOT have valid PR status (see Section 31.(2)(b) (should link) IRPA).

This forum is rife with tales of woe, more than occasional wailing and gnashing of teeth, among those who were cutting-it-close, and fell short, one way or another.


Longer explanation:

For a PR who has been outside Canada for nearly three years, it will take nearly THREE YEARS presence in Canada before the PR has been in Canada as much as the PR has been abroad. Thus, for nearly three years after coming to Canada and settling in Canada and STAYING in Canada, and then ONLY TO THE EXTENT THIS IS PROVEN, any time the PR is subject to an examination as to compliance with the PR RO, for any day the PR does not affirmatively prove actual presence in Canada it would be REASONABLE for CBSA or IRCC (during a PoE examination, for example, or a PR card application or PR TD application) to INFER THE PR WAS OUTSIDE CANADA, since that is where the PR was most of the time.

That is, for any day which it is not certain the PR was in Canada, a fact-finder can reasonably infer the PR was likely where the PR was most of the time during the preceding five years or so. And thus, if the PR was abroad more than in Canada, it would be reasonable for CBSA or IRCC to infer the PR was NOT in Canada unless the PR has affirmatively proved presence for any particular day.

For example, the PR reports being present in Canada 15 Aug 2015 until 31st Aug 2015, and the records and documentation do indeed verify the PR entered Canada 15 Aug 2015 and departed Canada 31 Aug 2015. That proves the PR was in Canada TWO DAYS regarding which it would be unreasonable to conclude presence for any less than FOUR days (since it is highly unlikely the PR left before the next day after arriving, and highly likely the PR was in Canada at least the day before the exit).

What about August 17 through August 29, back in 2015. What proves the PR was in Canada those days? Remember, again, the burden of proving presence those days is on the PR. If IRCC can reasonably infer the POSSIBILITY the PR was not in Canada any of those days, that means the PR has the burden of affirmatively proving presence those days.

For example, can you prove you did not spend a week or ten days in the U.S. during that period of time, back in 2015?

CBSA and IRCC do NOT ordinarily approach most PRs that skeptically. BUT in many circumstances it may be reasonable to do so. And for a PR cutting-it-close and particularly one cutting-it-so-close as you are contemplating, it would not take much to tip the scales toward more skepticism.

There seems to be a pervasive sense that PRs can rely on CBSA and IRCC counting all days between a reported date-of-entry and the next reported date-of-exit. Sure, that is a typical INFERENCE. That inference goes like this: so long as there is no indication the PR exited Canada in-between a reported date-of-entry and the next reported date-of-exit, the PR was in fact in Canada between those dates.

IRCC does not rely on this inference alone EVEN for PRs who are well settled in Canada and who have been mostly living and staying in Canada. In a PR card or PR TD application, for example, IRCC requires the PR to include corroborating (supporting) information, including address and work history, and IRCC will often compare the PR's information to information in other sources, ranging from government sources like CBSA travel history records, to open source information such as considering any information a PR appears to have shared on the Internet (LinkedIn appears to be frequently probed for information about PRs).

It is worth remembering that IRCC's inquiries in this regard are not focused much on what will show the PR's presence BUT rather it is mostly focused on looking for indications of inconsistencies, discrepancies, omissions, or other types of error or misrepresentation. This means any MISTAKE by the PR can trigger IRCC to be more skeptical about the PR's accounting of information, especially the PR's accounting of travel dates, and the latter especially so if there are any inconsistencies or discrepancies tending to indicate the POSSIBILITY the PR was abroad some day the PR reported being present in Canada.

One discrepancy which pops up in more than a few of the officially ....

I have barely scratched the surface of little things which can add up to IRCC taking a more severe approach to assessing the PR's declarations of presence. In conjunction with cutting-it-close, the risks can increase dramatically. To some extent, perhaps a large extent, once it is readily clear the PR has indeed fully settled in Canada, is living in Canada permanently, IRCC tends to NOT be so strict . . . in which circumstances cutting-it-close is NOT so risky. BUT until and unless it is clear the PR is fully settled in Canada, is living in Canada permanently, cutting-it-close is risky and cutting-it-this-close, as close as you are contemplating, can be especially risky.
Such a great answer. Thank you.

I’m presently outside of Canada for almost a year since I got PR. I plan to move there next year since my US visa expires then. I would have lived outside for a year and 8 months then. Is it advisable to not apply to IRCC for any immigration benefits till I have lived for at least two years straight in Canada? Since this is my first 5 year period, I will be still in compliance even after I move there next year.

Will living outside for 1 year and 8 months cause any issues returning next year, at PoE?