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PRTD from USA

ksn4u

Hero Member
Feb 28, 2014
238
22
Category........
Visa Office......
Case Processing Centre - Ottawa (CPC-O)
NOC Code......
2283
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
25-4-2014
Doc's Request.
13-03-2015
AOR Received.
09-06-2014
Med's Request
27-11-2014
Med's Done....
04-12-2014
Passport Req..
27-04-2015
LANDED..........
11-07-2015
Hi anyone applied PRTD while staying in US? My PR card expired and I need to travel to US. What are my chances to return.
 

IndianBos

Hero Member
Oct 8, 2014
306
137
Toronto, Canada
Category........
FSW
Visa Office......
CPC-O
NOC Code......
2174
App. Filed.......
19-Jun-2014
Nomination.....
16-Oct-2014
File Transfer...
11-Dec-2014
Med's Request
24-Apr-2015 (Delayed for adding a child)
Med's Done....
9-May-2015 (Updated 29-May-2015)
Interview........
N/A
Passport Req..
17-Jun-2015 (mailed 29-June-2015)
VISA ISSUED...
11-Jul-2015
LANDED..........
7-Sep-2015
If you are travelling by car, you dont need PRTD. You can just use your COPR at the land border and and enter Canada. Again, assuming that you meet the Residency Obligation.
 

Dreamszalone

Star Member
Oct 5, 2013
62
9
Hi anyone applied PRTD while staying in US? My PR card expired and I need to travel to US. What are my chances to return.

You can apply to PRTD from the USA the same as you would apply from any other country. You will have to email everything to IRCC email for PRTD. If you are in limbo or very short of days to meet RO then just cross the border on an expired PR Card. Usually, PRTD from the USA is easy and it would be very helpful for your PR renewal because Canadian Post has already made decision on RO your PR renewal would be quick and fast.
 

ksn4u

Hero Member
Feb 28, 2014
238
22
Category........
Visa Office......
Case Processing Centre - Ottawa (CPC-O)
NOC Code......
2283
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
25-4-2014
Doc's Request.
13-03-2015
AOR Received.
09-06-2014
Med's Request
27-11-2014
Med's Done....
04-12-2014
Passport Req..
27-04-2015
LANDED..........
11-07-2015
If you are travelling by car, you dont need PRTD. You can just use your COPR at the land border and and enter Canada. Again, assuming that you meet the Residency Obligation.
yes i am eligible for RO and I have applied for the PR card extension already but not yet received AOR.
question: how they will know my residency obligation ? whether i met or not? how do i need to prove them that i meet the RO? can ishow them my expired PR card? and what documents should i show them for proof of RO?
 

IndianBos

Hero Member
Oct 8, 2014
306
137
Toronto, Canada
Category........
FSW
Visa Office......
CPC-O
NOC Code......
2174
App. Filed.......
19-Jun-2014
Nomination.....
16-Oct-2014
File Transfer...
11-Dec-2014
Med's Request
24-Apr-2015 (Delayed for adding a child)
Med's Done....
9-May-2015 (Updated 29-May-2015)
Interview........
N/A
Passport Req..
17-Jun-2015 (mailed 29-June-2015)
VISA ISSUED...
11-Jul-2015
LANDED..........
7-Sep-2015
yes i am eligible for RO and I have applied for the PR card extension already but not yet received AOR.
question: how they will know my residency obligation ? whether i met or not? how do i need to prove them that i meet the RO? can ishow them my expired PR card? and what documents should i show them for proof of RO?
Usually the agent at the border crossing window will ask you questions like how long have you been away, and whether you have applied for the PR card since it is expired. Based on your answers, if they have a doubt that you dont meet RO, you will be referred to secondary inspection.

The agent at secondary has access to all your entry and exit records from Canada and can calculate your number of days spent in Canada. If you want to be extra-prepared, carry some proofs like Utility bills, job letters and lease documents, but I doubt you will need them.

Since you meet RO, your COPR should be enough. You shouldn't be concerned about entering through a land border using COPR as long as you meet the RO.
 

kathysrazor

Star Member
Oct 25, 2020
163
33
yes i am eligible for RO and I have applied for the PR card extension already but not yet received AOR.
question: how they will know my residency obligation ? whether i met or not? how do i need to prove them that i meet the RO? can ishow them my expired PR card? and what documents should i show them for proof of RO?
At primary, they generally won’t know. With plane records and US information sharing, they can generally find out if you are not a US Citizen. US Citizens have a few more privacy rights, and then to really find out requires getting info from the US directly or making you do a FOIA request.

In general, if they believe you’ve genuinely applied for a PR card/PRTD, they don’t bother with residency, as you will get found out and it won’t be their problem anyway. Otherwise, it can be helpful to bring your residency calculator with you. Ultimately, the decision won’t be made there - they will just require you to deal with it at a hearing.

Your expired PR card is not useful at all, other than providing some evidence that you were at one point a PR, and making it easier to look up your UCI in the computer to see if you’ve failed a RO check and lost status.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,062
12,800
At primary, they generally won’t know. With plane records and US information sharing, they can generally find out if you are not a US Citizen. US Citizens have a few more privacy rights, and then to really find out requires getting info from the US directly or making you do a FOIA request.

In general, if they believe you’ve genuinely applied for a PR card/PRTD, they don’t bother with residency, as you will get found out and it won’t be their problem anyway. Otherwise, it can be helpful to bring your residency calculator with you. Ultimately, the decision won’t be made there - they will just require you to deal with it at a hearing.

Your expired PR card is not useful at all, other than providing some evidence that you were at one point a PR, and making it easier to look up your UCI in the computer to see if you’ve failed a RO check and lost status.
Expired PR card is very helpful if entering by land.
 

kathysrazor

Star Member
Oct 25, 2020
163
33
Expired PR card is very helpful if entering by land.
Not really, as it’s considered not proof of status anymore. As I said, it’s just proof you were at one point a PR. Heck, when my card was stolen it didn’t even help having the printout of the old that wasn’t expired.

If you are a US Citizen, it can actually make things worse, as it gives them a reason to look at your residency.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,062
12,800
Not really, as it’s considered not proof of status anymore. As I said, it’s just proof you were at one point a PR. Heck, when my card was stolen it didn’t even help having the printout of the old that wasn’t expired.

If you are a US Citizen, it can actually make things worse, as it gives them a reason to look at your residency.
OP isn't a a US citizen. Proof that you still have PR status is essentially what you'll need to enter Canada. Showing your expired PR card or COPR is pretty standard especially if you are not from a visa exempt country like OP.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,300
3,064
Not really, as it’s considered not proof of status anymore. As I said, it’s just proof you were at one point a PR.
Actually, not really.

@canuck78 gets it right. Particularly at a PoE, presenting an expired PR card will usually, almost always, help the border officials verify identity and status. Remember, as long as the PR can establish identity, the border officials can ordinarily readily verify the PR's status in the system.

It warrants noting, as well, that at least some provinces officially recognize expired PR cards as proof of status, at least for a period of time. (Ontario, for example, will accept an expired card as proof of status for the purposes of qualifying for OHIP . . . I forget the number of years, at least three or four years.)

Heck, when my card was stolen it didn’t even help having the printout of the old that wasn’t expired.
Not sure what you mean by "the printout" of the old PR card, but if you mean a photocopy, yeah, of course, a photocopy of a document like a PR card is not worth anywhere near what an actual card is. For sure, an expired PR card is stronger EVIDENCE of identity and status than a photocopy of even a still valid card.

DISTINCTION: There is an important distinction relative to what will suffice when trying to board commercial transportation headed to Canada from abroad. For this, to get permission to board a flight to Canada, for example, a PR must show either a valid PR card or a PR Travel Document. No substitutes. No matter how much documentation and other evidence a person has tending to prove they are a PR in good standing, that will not suffice for getting permission to board the flight to Canada. Valid PR card or PR Travel Document only. So, for boarding a flight to Canada, an expired PR card is of no help. A photocopy of a valid PR card is of no help. Valid PR card or PR Travel Document only.

This has to do with regulations imposed on commercial transportation businesses.

What will suffice at the border, at a PoE, however, is whatever is needed to establish identity and status, and again establishing identity almost always will suffice because the border officials can then verify status in the system. Presenting an expired PR card or CoPR will typically make things easier for the border officials, and thus facilitate clearing border control more quickly (unless the PR has other issues, such as an outstanding compliance with the Residency Obligation problem). But even the PR's home country passport will, usually, almost always, be enough.

PRs have a statutory entitlement to entry into Canada. They do not have a statutory entitlement to board an airline headed to Canada. (Neither do Canadian citizens, who also must show specific documents, either a Canadian passport or a special Travel Document.)

By the way . . . U.S. citizens presenting their U.S. passport will be allowed to board a flight headed to Canada without showing either a PR card (if they are also a Canadian PR) or a Canadian passport (if they are a Canadian citizen). Border entry protocols, in contrast, will depend on their status in Canada . . . which does not need to be shown by any particular document.
 

kathysrazor

Star Member
Oct 25, 2020
163
33
By the way . . . U.S. citizens presenting their U.S. passport will be allowed to board a flight headed to Canada without showing either a PR card (if they are also a Canadian PR) or a Canadian passport (if they are a Canadian citizen). Border entry protocols, in contrast, will depend on their status in Canada . . . which does not need to be shown by any particular document.
That was the case up until the border closure. Post border closure, even proof that I met the exemptions that would allow for US Citizens (traveling for essential work) didn’t matter. The CBSA agent told the airline to deny boarding anyway, and I ended up driving to Canada instead of taking the last leg of my flight.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,300
3,064
That was the case up until the border closure. Post border closure, even proof that I met the exemptions that would allow for US Citizens (traveling for essential work) didn’t matter. The CBSA agent told the airline to deny boarding anyway, and I ended up driving to Canada instead of taking the last leg of my flight.
It appears you are confusing or at least conflating more than just what PRs need to board a flight to Canada versus what PRs can show at a PoE to establish identity and status and be given permission to enter Canada, but also conflating the rules governing travel restrictions related to the measures implemented in response to the Covid-19 pandemic.

In terms of your personal experience, and why the Covid-19 related travel restrictions precluded you from getting permission to board a flight to Canada, I cannot explain and will not try. That said, it is easy to recognize that it was obviously rooted in the Covid-19 related travel restrictions since otherwise, but for these restrictions, a U.S. citizen presenting a U.S. passport will be given permission to board a flight to Canada (subject, of course, to other potential exceptions).

In any event, to avoid muddying waters, let's be clear; to reiterate, to board a flight to Canada, there are specific document requirements. For Canadians attempting to fly to Canada from abroad, the ONLY documents that will suffice are:
-- a valid Canadian PR card, or​
-- a valid Canadian passport, or​
-- a Travel Document specifically authorizing travel to Canada​

That is it. With some exceptions (like the exception for Canadians carrying a U.S. passport . . . which is an exception to the general policies and rules regulating immigration, NOT about other travel restrictions such as those currently in effect related to the pandemic).

No amount of evidence of status, even an amount of evidence amounting to overwhelming proof of status, will suffice. The applicable regulations require presentation of one of these specified documents.

IN CONTRAST, being allowed to enter Canada is about establishing status. No particular documents are necessary. As @canuck accurately, correctly observed (and, again, which is contrary to what you asserted), for a PR arriving at a PoE without a valid PR card, having evidence of one's PR status will help facilitate the border officials verification of the traveler's status, and an expired PR card is good evidence for this purpose. In fact, it is probably the BEST evidence a PR can present if the PR does not have a valid PR card. The next best evidence is a copy of the CoPR.

Many participants in this forum are well familiar with this. But the recurring queries suggest that in the general population of Canadians (both citizens and PRs), there continues to be confusion about the difference between what is needed to fly to Canada versus what will suffice at the border entry itself.

Current travel restrictions related to Covid-19 measures complicates things for individual travelers. These restrictions are temporary (subject to periodic modifications, including changes on very short notice). These do not modify or alleviate application of the immigration rules themselves. In particular, the same general rule requiring Canadians to present specified documents to obtain boarding flights to Canada still apply, meaning PRs still need to present either a valid PR card or a Travel Document. And, Canadians do not need any particular documents to be allowed entry upon arrival at a PoE, and even though the burden of proving identity and status is on the traveler, even though a Canadian, proof of identity will usually suffice, recognizing that for those Canadians who are PRs, it will help to have direct evidence of status, such as an expired PR card or a copy of the CoPR.
 

kathysrazor

Star Member
Oct 25, 2020
163
33
It appears you are confusing or at least conflating more than just what PRs need to board a flight to Canada versus what PRs can show at a PoE to establish identity and status and be given permission to enter Canada, but also conflating the rules governing travel restrictions related to the measures implemented in response to the Covid-19 pandemic.
I'm neither confusing nor conflating. You're trying to generalize a statement that is referring to a specific case.

Specifically, your statement that "U.S. citizens presenting their U.S. passport will be allowed to board a flight headed to Canada without showing either a PR card (if they are also a Canadian PR) or a Canadian passport (if they are a Canadian citizen). " was historically correct, but is no longer so.

Historically, the airline's documentation requirements were satisfied by a US Passport (or Canadian, or PR card). With the COVID restrictions barring non-essential travel, they are now required to verify that your travel is essential if you do not have proof of PR status. The order in council has legally changed their legal obligations, even if only temporarily.

My point is that even if one has proof of essential travel that one can no longer be guaranteed to fly to Canada on the strength of a US Passport. You may, or may not, be permitted to board. As the screening is done in the US, the CBSA officials who approve what's "essential" are not bound by the same rules they would be at a PoE. In other words, even if the CBSA determines that you are, in fact, a Permanent Resident, they may still instruct the airline to deny you boarding to Canada.

That part is new. Historically, the decision for US Citizens on admission was made at the PoE. Visa countries had much of the determination made outside of Canada, and the ETA system pushed even more of that decision making outside of Canada. For US Citizens without PR status documents, that decision is now also being made while outside of Canada by Canadian officials.

In any event, to avoid muddying waters, let's be clear; to reiterate, to board a flight to Canada, there are specific document requirements. For Canadians attempting to fly to Canada from abroad, the ONLY documents that will suffice are:
-- a valid Canadian PR card, or​
-- a valid Canadian passport, or​
-- a Travel Document specifically authorizing travel to Canada​
If we're going to be accurate here, let's be accurate. Those are the requirements for transport to Canada using a commercial carrier. I've flown to Canada using just my Pilot's license and while it annoys them, it's legal. You can also have an email from Canada that authorizes flying with a foreign passport if you are a Canadian Citizen.

No amount of evidence of status, even an amount of evidence amounting to overwhelming proof of status, will suffice. The applicable regulations require presentation of one of these specified documents.
We're talking again in the context of the strength of a US Passport, which was previously sufficient. PR cards and PR travel documents are presumptive proof of Status by law, but that does not mean that one can not rebut the presumption of non-status. My documents in this case were relevant, given the exclusions under the OIC. The CBSA ultimately has to decided whether or not a given US Citizen's entry is discretionary or not.

They chose to treat me as a Permanent Resident for purposes of the OIC restrictions (meaning that I was exempt, thus they would ignore H&C/Proof of non-discretionary travel), and then had the airline exclude me for not having the appropriate docs. This was odd in that they would have approved me to travel if I were not a Permanent Resident. That's why my comment is that a US Passport is no longer strong enough to cross the border by commercial carrier.

It's also entirely useless if one is at a land border, as foreign passports don't matter there.

IN CONTRAST, being allowed to enter Canada is about establishing status. No particular documents are necessary.
That much you do have correct.

As @canuck accurately, correctly observed (and, again, which is contrary to what you asserted), for a PR arriving at a PoE without a valid PR card, having evidence of one's PR status will help facilitate the border officials verification of the traveler's status
They will look you up by UCI, meaning that having an expired card or no card will not affect whether or not you cross the border (though it may save a few minutes). More importantly, presenting an expired card harms you.

, and an expired PR card is good evidence for this purpose. In fact, it is probably the BEST evidence a PR can present if the PR does not have a valid PR card. The next best evidence is a copy of the CoPR.
The CoPR is the approprate document if one does not want to get their residency questioned.

I'm traveling in the US at the moment so I don't have my spreadsheet here, but I have crossed the border over 500 times, making notes and seeing how they respond to various situations. I have crossed with Nexus, without Nexus, using a Washington EDL, US Passport Card, a BC license, even a Canadian pilot's license. I've used my CoPR, volunteered and not volunteered status, used copies of a current PR card, PR card, an expired PR card, a scan of a PR card on my phone, and I've crossed at all times day or night, in all the PoEs in BC and Ontario. I've crossed by air, by boat, by land, by foot, by bike.

When I immigrated to Canada I had some outstanding tax debt. The US was taking passports for back tax debt, so I was highly motivated to ensure that I could still travel to and from the United States (where I have business) and to Canada (where I live). I crossed nearly every single day for 6 months, and multiple times a week over years. Seeing what actually works at the border is kind of my thing.

The odds of getting questioned about my residency are way, way, way higher if I present anything that shows expired on a PR card (either the card itself or a picture/printout of it). Pre-COVID lockdowns, NEXUS was the lowest short of an actual PR card. Percentage wise, I was questioned more about my residency when I presented an expired PR card than when I literally just showed up and went "all I have is my BC license, sorry".

There are other factors that have to be controlled for. Having plates from the province you are in decreases the questioning. Mentioning that I'm applying for citizenship reduced the number of residency questions I got. US plates get more questions, though if the purpose of trip is "shopping" they often don't get to asking for Canada status (again, assuming not COVID).

Many participants in this forum are well familiar with this. But the recurring queries suggest that in the general population of Canadians (both citizens and PRs), there continues to be confusion about the difference between what is needed to fly to Canada versus what will suffice at the border entry itself.
That may be the case generally, but I'm quite aware of the specifics.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,300
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My point is that even if one has proof of essential travel that one can no longer be guaranteed to fly to Canada on the strength of a US Passport.
You conflate TEMPORARY pandemic response measures, and the related travel restrictions, with the rules and regulations governing immigration.

The immigration rules have NOT changed. It is confusing, at best, and risks misleading many, to suggest that the current Covid-19 travel restrictions have changed those rules. The pandemic related travel rules are separate, additional restrictions. They apply, for now, and thus of course they directly affect travel, for now, and probably for several more months.

But they do NOT modify the generally applicable rules or regulations governing what documents must be shown to board commercial transportation.

Beyond that, most of what you claim and describe appears to be imbued with personal experience coloured by some personal issues . . . noting, after all, generally a pilot legally flying a private plane into Canada from the U.S. is not something that ordinarily "annoys" Canadian authorities, so long as the pilot otherwise follows the applicable rules and, of course, is dealing honestly with authorities. Not a lot of people travel by private plane but it is nonetheless very common, and usually NOT a big deal, not usually something that "annoys" authorities.

Thus, whatever else you have going on that triggers questions or annoyance or has, as it appears it may have, elevated suspicions about you, even if those are totally unfounded, that does not illuminate much about how things work for most PRs traveling back to Canada.

For focus on the topic and query here: If the OP here, whose PR card has expired, who is in compliance with the Residency Obligation, elects to make the trip and then return to Canada via private transportation, which for many is easier and timing-wise can be better managed than applying for a PR Travel Document while abroad, presenting the expired PR card is a good option, probably the best option, upon arrival at the PoE. To the extent you persist in asserting otherwise, NO. Emphatically, NO.

It warrants noting a tangent I do not want to get bogged down discussing (I assume we disagree), but it needs to be said: not "volunteering" information to border officials, in general, is one thing; concealing by omission you are a Canadian is another. Game-playing tends to increase a PR's risk of problems, albeit sometimes things go smooth but then it is something that comes back to haunt one in later transactions.


EDIT TO ADD; talk about game-playing:

. . . living in Blaine, WA (right across the border). I’d bike across the border at around 11:45PM, then bike back at 12:05 PM so I could bang out two days of residency at once. Partial days of physical presence count, and you could just as easily do it in a car.
Wow. Really.

And you think the reason border officials questioned you about Residency Obligation compliance was an expired PR card?

I suppose you are not the first and will not be the last person to confuse what the law allows with what it intends, or to otherwise intentionally exploit it.

But for other PRs here, looking for guidance and information about how things work . . . that is NOT the way to go.
 
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kathysrazor

Star Member
Oct 25, 2020
163
33
If you are a PR, you can return to Canada by land by right. The more documentation you have, the better.

You won't be able to fly to Canada, and if you don't have a PCR test you may be fined, but you can enter Canada if you can get here. A PRTD would let you get on a plane, either from the US or India.
 
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