PR renewal possibilities

[teeakatheer]

Hi Experts

I would like to get your valuable inputs for this current situation.

I got my PR card in Aug 2018 and did stamping in the next few weeks in 2018. and i entered Canada in Aug 2020 .

now, i came to my home country for a personal trip where i ended up staying for 4 months. i will be most likely returning back in Jan 2022 .

saying that, to meet that 2 years count. I have stayed inside the country only for 365 days so far. if i enter in Jan 2022... am i eligible to renew the PR by applying in dec 2022?

where as by Sep2022 by card is getting expired and also i wouldn't have met the 2 years within that 5 years.. where i would need to stay for another few months to apply for renewal.

Also, I was in canada for an year in 2014- 2015 under workpermit. will that be considered ? also during this personal trip i was working for canada employer for few weeks.. will that be considered at any point? Appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Thanks a lot !!

 

[armoured]

saying that, to meet that 2 years count. I have stayed inside the country only for 365 days so far. if i enter in Jan 2022... am i eligible to renew the PR by applying in dec 2022?

where as by Sep2022 by card is getting expired and also i wouldn't have met the 2 years within that 5 years.. where i would need to stay for another few months to apply for renewal.

Also, I was in canada for an year in 2014- 2015 under workpermit. will that be considered ? also during this personal trip i was working for canada employer for few weeks.. will that be considered at any point? Appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Thanks a lot !!

First, you have to be responsible for the day count - anyone here is only be going to look at the dates you provide and add them up; that's arithmetic, check if yourself.

The remaining important part of the answer is: do not apply to renew your card before you have at least 730 days, better a bit of buffer (say 30-60 days just in case), counting all days going back five years from the day you submit. (Days in Canada before that do not count and no, your work permit or other days before that five year period do not count either).

Really, that's it. It does not matter if you have an expired PR card if you remain in Canada. You'll have to deal with health care etc acc to the rules of your province of residence. But underline: within Canada you mostly do not need a valid PR card (your PR card is not your PR status).

Note: it seems (not doing careful calcs because vague dates) that you are or may soon be out of compliance with your residency obligation. You should return soonest. Note, the date of your PR card is irrelevant for these purposes - what matters is the five year period from your original date of landing (and assuming that was perhaps May 2018, you may be cutting it close).

Anyway, if you proceed like that - say, applying in early 2023 (to have some buffer, check the dates), have the 730 days + buffer when you apply, it hopefully should all go smoothly.

 

[teeakatheer]

First, you have to be responsible for the day count - anyone here is only be going to look at the dates you provide and add them up; that's arithmetic, check if yourself.

The remaining important part of the answer is: do not apply to renew your card before you have at least 730 days, better a bit of buffer (say 30-60 days just in case), counting all days going back five years from the day you submit. (Days in Canada before that do not count and no, your work permit or other days before that five year period do not count either).

Really, that's it. It does not matter if you have an expired PR card if you remain in Canada. You'll have to deal with health care etc acc to the rules of your province of residence. But underline: within Canada you mostly do not need a valid PR card (your PR card is not your PR status).

Note: it seems (not doing careful calcs because vague dates) that you are or may soon be out of compliance with your residency obligation. You should return soonest. Note, the date of your PR card is irrelevant for these purposes - what matters is the five year period from your original date of landing (and assuming that was perhaps May 2018, you may be cutting it close).

Anyway, if you proceed like that - say, applying in early 2023 (to have some buffer, check the dates), have the 730 days + buffer when you apply, it hopefully should all go smoothly.

I appreciate for your response..!!
Just to clarify one last question,

when we talk about dates... here is what am i am now..

PR duration Aug2017- sep2022.
I stayed Aug2020-Aug2021 - 365 days counted.
sep-2021 - Dec 2021 - out of country
Jan2022- Sep 2022 - PR valid.

can i stay after Sep2022 and wait for few more months without valid PR card and apply once i meet that 730 days?

Also.. will my stay outside county can be counted in any way? like thou am in personal trip and am workin for canada employer,.. is there a way we can show that? please advise.

Thanks.

 

[dpenabill]

can i stay after Sep2022 and wait for few more months without valid PR card and apply once i meet that 730 days?

If you return to Canada and are waived into the country, you can stay for as long as you care to stay. The validity of your status does not depend on having a valid PR card.

If you do this and stay and wait until the day you have been IN Canada for at least 730 days within the five years preceding THAT DAY, you meet the eligibility requirements for a new PR card (to replace the expired card). It would be OK to apply for a new PR card any day after that.

The Issue You May Be Underestimating:

(and why @armoured emphasized returning sooner)

If you do not return to Canada before you have been outside Canada more than 1095 days, total, since the date of your landing, you will be in breach of the PR Residency Obligation . . . and that happens as of the day you reach that threshold. That is because once you are outside Canada more than 1095 days since landing (during the first five years), it is no longer possible for you to meet the RO.

You will then, when you next arrive at a Port-of-Entry when you return to Canada, be at RISK for being issued a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility based on a breach of the RO, and issued a Departure Order. That is a decision terminating PR status. You would have a right of appeal so you would still be allowed to enter Canada. HOWEVER, days IN Canada after that will NOT count toward meeting the RO (unless you ultimately win the appeal or the Report is otherwise set aside).

We cannot quantify the risk other than to emphasize that the sooner the PR returns to Canada, the lower the risk; the longer abroad, the greater the risk.

To be clear, as noted, the validity of your PR status does not depend on having a valid PR card. Which also means having a valid PR card does not determine whether you are inadmissible or still have valid PR status. That is, the fact you have a valid PR card on the date you arrive at a PoE into Canada does NOT protect you from revocation proceedings for a failure to be in compliance with the RO at that time.

Credit for days abroad in employ of Canadian business:

also during this personal trip i was working for canada employer for few weeks.. will that be considered at any point?

That is a more complicated issue. It requires more than just being in the employ of a Canadian business. It may be available, or may not be available to you, depending on the details in your situation. Unless you can determine it will almost certainly be a credit you qualify for, it would be quite risky to rely on it.

First note: while there are other employers, like the Federal government, for which employment abroad may, emphasis on "MAY" not necessarily "will" qualify for RO credit, one of the requirements to qualify for the working-abroad-in-the-employ-of-a-Canadian-business credit is that the employer be a Canadian "business" as prescribed by regulation as well as statute. Not all businesses in Canada, even if incorporated under Canadian law, qualify.

Second note: the employment itself must meet specific criteria which are strictly interpreted; this mostly has to do with the work being a TEMPORARY ASSIGNMENT, and what that means, which again gets complicated. There is also a "full time" element, which may be an issue in your situation.

There are some threads here in which this credit is discussed in depth. See, for example "Working Abroad RO credit, including 'business trips;' an update" here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/working-abroad-ro-credit-including-business-trips-an-update.607559/ (the actual discussion goes well beyond the scope of business trips)

Perhaps you could peruse that or one of the other threads and refine your query. Absent more detail, in general it is risky to rely on this credit. While it is somewhat an exaggeration, I often suggest that if a PR actually needs this credit to be in compliance with the RO, odds are they do not qualify for it. Again, that is overstating it, but the point is much caution needs to be exercised if a PR is relying on the working-abroad credit toward RO compliance.

 

[teeakatheer]

If you return to Canada and are waived into the country, you can stay for as long as you care to stay. The validity of your status does not depend on having a valid PR card.

If you do this and stay and wait until the day you have been IN Canada for at least 730 days within the five years preceding THAT DAY, you meet the eligibility requirements for a new PR card (to replace the expired card). It would be OK to apply for a new PR card any day after that.

The Issue You May Be Underestimating:

(and why @armoured emphasized returning sooner)

If you do not return to Canada before you have been outside Canada more than 1095 days, total, since the date of your landing, you will be in breach of the PR Residency Obligation . . . and that happens as of the day you reach that threshold. That is because once you are outside Canada more than 1095 days since landing (during the first five years), it is no longer possible for you to meet the RO.

You will then, when you next arrive at a Port-of-Entry when you return to Canada, be at RISK for being issued a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility based on a breach of the RO, and issued a Departure Order. That is a decision terminating PR status. You would have a right of appeal so you would still be allowed to enter Canada. HOWEVER, days IN Canada after that will NOT count toward meeting the RO (unless you ultimately win the appeal or the Report is otherwise set aside).

We cannot quantify the risk other than to emphasize that the sooner the PR returns to Canada, the lower the risk; the longer abroad, the greater the risk.

To be clear, as noted, the validity of your PR status does not depend on having a valid PR card. Which also means having a valid PR card does not determine whether you are inadmissible or still have valid PR status. That is, the fact you have a valid PR card on the date you arrive at a PoE into Canada does NOT protect you from revocation proceedings for a failure to be in compliance with the RO at that time.

Credit for days abroad in employ of Canadian business:



That is a more complicated issue. It requires more than just being in the employ of a Canadian business. It may be available, or may not be available to you, depending on the details in your situation. Unless you can determine it will almost certainly be a credit you qualify for, it would be quite risky to rely on it.

First note: while there are other employers, like the Federal government, for which employment abroad may, emphasis on "MAY" not necessarily "will" qualify for RO credit, one of the requirements to qualify for the working-abroad-in-the-employ-of-a-Canadian-business credit is that the employer be a Canadian "business" as prescribed by regulation as well as statute. Not all businesses in Canada, even if incorporated under Canadian law, qualify.

Second note: the employment itself must meet specific criteria which are strictly interpreted; this mostly has to do with the work being a TEMPORARY ASSIGNMENT, and what that means, which again gets complicated. There is also a "full time" element, which may be an issue in your situation.

There are some threads here in which this credit is discussed in depth. See, for example "Working Abroad RO credit, including 'business trips;' an update" here: https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/working-abroad-ro-credit-including-business-trips-an-update.607559/ (the actual discussion goes well beyond the scope of business trips)

Perhaps you could peruse that or one of the other threads and refine your query. Absent more detail, in general it is risky to rely on this credit. While it is somewhat an exaggeration, I often suggest that if a PR actually needs this credit to be in compliance with the RO, odds are they do not qualify for it. Again, that is overstating it, but the point is much caution needs to be exercised if a PR is relying on the working-abroad credit toward RO compliance.

Thanks for the detailed information!!

Now I am bit worried . So I have spent only 365 so far. I took 3 months break now. What if I enter in jan2022. Will there be anything to consider at Port of entry?? As I might exceeded that 1095 days?? Please kindly advice.

 

[teeakatheer]

Thanks for the detailed information!!

Now I am bit worried . So I have spent only 365 so far. I took 3 months break now. What if I enter in jan2022. Will there be anything to consider at Port of entry?? As I might exceeded that 1095 days?? Please kindly advice.

Now with the current state... Once I enter until I renew my card..I can't come out of the country in between at any point of time is it?? Thou u have a valid PR till sep 2022?

 

[dpenabill]

Thanks for the detailed information!!

Now I am bit worried . So I have spent only 365 so far. I took 3 months break now. What if I enter in jan2022. Will there be anything to consider at Port of entry?? As I might exceeded that 1095 days?? Please kindly advice.

As @armoured noted, calculating compliance with the Residency Obligation is arithmetic, arithmetic and the calendar. You know the precise date you landed. You should know how many days you have been outside Canada since that date. And how many days you have been IN Canada since that date.

There are various approaches to applying the numbers during the first five years. Ultimately, to be in compliance with the RO during the first five years the PR must be able to spend at least 730 days IN Canada by the fifth year anniversary of the date of landing. Typical way of calculating this, doing the arithmetic, is to count the number of days in Canada so far and add to that the number of days left on the calendar. As long as that total equals 730 or more, the PR is in compliance.

Many PRs, however, are in situations similar to yours in which they plan or anticipate more days abroad before they return to Canada. Meaning they realize that going forward they will not get credit for some of those days left on the calendar today. If, for example, you remain outside Canada for the next six weeks, in doing YOUR arithmetic you should not count those six weeks.

Personally (but different people deal with numbers differently) I find it easier, for calculating RO compliance during the first five years, to simply count the number of days outside Canada. As I previously observed, if a PR is outside Canada for more than 1096 days (well, to be precise I should have said 1096 where I said 1095) that means the PR is, as of then, in breach of the RO. This is because the total number of days in the first five years is 1826 (or so, depending on leap years). Subtract 1096 from 1826, that leaves exactly 730. Thus, if the PR is outside Canada *MORE* than 1096 days during the first five years, it is no longer possible for the PR to meet the minimum 730 days IN Canada obligation.

As of the day that happens, the day it becomes impossible for the PR to spend at least 730 days in Canada by the fifth year anniversary of the day they landed, the PR is then in breach of the RO.

Again, as @armoured also noted, you are the one who needs to do the arithmetic. This part is not complicated. It is just about counting days based on whether you were IN or NOT IN Canada.

Now with the current state... Once I enter until I renew my card..I can't come out of the country in between at any point of time is it?? Thou u have a valid PR till sep 2022?

The dates on your PR card do not matter in calculating RO compliance.

If you are asking whether it will be OK to travel outside Canada again after returning, while your current PR card is still valid, Canada does NOT restrict a PR's international travel at all. You *CAN* travel.

But if you go outside Canada while you are in breach of the PR RO, you will be at RISK for being Reported the next time you return to Canada. Whether you are carrying a valid PR card or not. Again, what matters is how many days you have been IN Canada, how many days OUTSIDE Canada, and the dates on your PR card do NOT matter in calculating RO compliance.

In contrast, even if your PR card is expired and IRCC has not yet issued you a replacement PR card, as long as you are in compliance with the RO you can travel abroad without facing the prospect of being Reported when you return. There is a significant risk of inconvenience if you do that, since to board a flight to Canada you would need to apply for and obtain a PR Travel Document. And that can be more difficult and take longer in some parts of the world. (And cutting-it-close can elevate processing risks.)

All the PR card does is get you permission to board a flight to Canada from abroad. That is its purpose. Sure, provinces and Canadian schools and some employers will want to see a valid PR card in certain situations, to document your status in Canada, but that is entirely collateral to the Federal government's administration of immigration.

Of course a valid PR card is a primary document to present upon arrival in Canada, but it is not necessary. And for a PR in compliance with the RO, an expired PR card or even a copy of the CoPR generally suffices.

With some hesitation, I will mention that there appears to be some extra leniency being exercised by border officials currently, in relation to the impact Covid has had. Moreover, generally PRs during the first five years appear to be given a little more flexibility. But I must emphasize that I am hesitant to mention this because there is NO guarantee any particular PR will benefit from such leniency, and there is no assurance this will continue, and frankly the best guess is that it will not, that in the coming year border officials and IRCC generally is likely to trend back toward more thorough if not strict enforcement of the RO. If you go looking through other threads here you are bound to see anecdotal reports from PRs who were in breach of the RO when they arrived at a PoE but were easily waived into Canada. That is no assurance it will go so easily for some other PR, and again the likely trend is to see fewer examples of that going forward, if not in the next several months, in the next year or so.

 

[CaBeaver]

I appreciate for your response..!!
Just to clarify one last question,

when we talk about dates... here is what am i am now..

PR duration Aug2017- sep2022.
I stayed Aug2020-Aug2021 - 365 days counted.
sep-2021 - Dec 2021 - out of country
Jan2022- Sep 2022 - PR valid.

can i stay after Sep2022 and wait for few more months without valid PR card and apply once i meet that 730 days?

Also.. will my stay outside county can be counted in any way? like thou am in personal trip and am workin for canada employer,.. is there a way we can show that? please advise.

Thanks.

If you don't get reported at the border, yes you can stay until you meet the requirements, and then apply for a new PR card. But if you get reported, you have to wait and see what they decide in your case. By the way, in your original post you mentioned you got your PR cad in Aug 2018, which is confusing.

 

[jakklondon]

Hi Experts

I would like to get your valuable inputs for this current situation.

I got my PR card in Aug 2018 and did stamping in the next few weeks in 2018. and i entered Canada in Aug 2020 .

now, i came to my home country for a personal trip where i ended up staying for 4 months. i will be most likely returning back in Jan 2022 .

saying that, to meet that 2 years count. I have stayed inside the country only for 365 days so far. if i enter in Jan 2022... am i eligible to renew the PR by applying in dec 2022?

where as by Sep2022 by card is getting expired and also i wouldn't have met the 2 years within that 5 years.. where i would need to stay for another few months to apply for renewal.

Also, I was in canada for an year in 2014- 2015 under workpermit. will that be considered ? also during this personal trip i was working for canada employer for few weeks.. will that be considered at any point? Appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Thanks a lot !!

You have to spend 730 days in 5 year period in Canada to meet RO. Just do the math, add the days in and out in the 5 year period, and you should have an answer. If you landed in 2018, your "5 year period" spans from 2018 through 2023. Whenever you cross the border into Canada, you must show that you met or will be able to meet your RO by 2023 (the 5 year anniversary of landing). Simple as that. The rest of your post is a 3 grade math problem. I am sure you can solve it.