PR child left Canada after applying for PR renewal.Problems to pick new PR card?

[Helen14]

I and my child both landed as PRs on Sep 2008. Soon we left Canada because the child had become seriously ill, surgery required and long treatment.
We have lived out of Canada more than 3 of 5 years but fortunately entered back in Aug 2012 without got reported or departure order in the entry port.
I enrolled the college in Canada on Sep 2012 and earned one year program diploma. Then I got full time permanent job in Canada.
The child lived with me in Canada and attended public school for 2 years. Finally, we both made new "fresh" RO 732 days during Aug 2012 - Sep 2014.
The PR cards expired on Sep 2013. We did not apply for renewal in 2013.

Having made "fresh" RO 732 days in 2012-2014, we have applied on Sep 2014 for renewal of our PR cards.
As I understand, RO is reestablished for both of us in good standing. Right?

Next day after application, my child left Canada by airplane for homeland to live with my mom and attend school outside of Canada.
I continue living in Canada and work full time, no travelling.

Question: can we meet any problems for renewal PR card for the child if the CIC send our application to the local office and request us to visit both of us the local office personally to pick up the new PR cards? Can the CIC give me, parent, the child's new PR card?
Of course, my relatives will send back the child's passport to me and the CIC officer in the local office will see during PR card pick up that the child currently left Canada after application was sent by looking at passport stamp (homeland country stamp passport in the airport).

Can CIC refuse to give me the child's PR card because my child left Canada after application was sent? Application and fresh photos were made and sent when the child was physically in Canada, we followed the rule: "Application must be prepared and sent from Canada". But what about "pick up PR cards" official rules? Must the child live in Canada until application processing in finished to be present personally in the local CIC office during pick up PR card time? Sometimes, the CIC send renewed PR cards by mail to the home address. But also very often they can require to visit the local office to pick up the card for all members of family.

Currently, the child has expired PR card, so the child is not able to return back in 1, 2 or 3 years.

If the CIC refuse to give me the child's new PR card, what should I do to get my child back to Canada (in summer 2016 or 2017)?
1. Apply for PR Travel document in the inland country?
2. Do the sponsorship of my child from Canada? Why? The child got RO 732 days in 2012-2014 valid until Sep 2017.
3. I plan to apply for Citizenship under new rules (4 of 6 years) in Nov-Dec 2016 and include the child for Citizenship application but it might be loo long to finish...

I would like to avoid extra problems and new applications because we both really did "fresh" RO 732 days and have full documentation to prove it.
I do not plan leave Canada except short vacations, I continue work full time.
Thanks to anybody who can answer.

 

[Leon]

You can apply for your child's PR card. If you are asked to pick up, bring your child's medical records (you get them from your provincial health care) as well as school records to show that your child was living with you for the 2 years in question.

If you are unable to get your child's PR card and want your child to visit, you should apply for your child's travel document.

You would not be able to sponsor your child for PR at this time nor would it be necessary because the child is still a PR and meets the residency requirements.

Keep in mind that once your child is outside for 3 years again, it risks losing PR due to not meeting the RO again. If your child loses PR, they would not be eligible for citizenship.

Also keep in mind that in order for your child to have a better chance in Canada, you should really consider having them study in Canada and not in your homeland.

 

[Helen14]

Thank you for your response, Leon.

So, the opportunity to pick up the child's new PR card is 50/50, depends on the officer's position.
You are right in general that it is better for the child to study in Canada for the child's better future but our current situation is different from standard cases.

The child has disability and is small enough now, it is the big challenge to study in Canada in regular class. We tried and were exhausted absolutely....
The child required too much care...
I was not able to work normally (I bless the Lord to keep my job !!!). I can't risk to loose full time permanent job, who will make income? I am a single parent. Due to that, the child was sent back to the relatives. Later, when the child will be older, the situation will change, it will be simpler.

If CIC does not give me the child's new PR card when finish processing the current joint (me and child) application for PR renewal, at least, I can apply for PRTD later.
When the child return to Canada in summer, I can apply urgent processing of his PR card renewal.

Another option is doing PRTD every summer for the next 3 years to be more comfortable for RO (earn extra 80-90 RO days every summer, totally 8-9 months extra), it can help until I get Citizenship - it give us more opportunities (e.g. I can return to my country to care of the child and he will be considered OK with RO by CIC because he will accompany the parent, Canadian citizen abroad, for example). If the Citizenship process in 2016-2017 will be faster than now (be finalized withing 10-12 months), the child has also a chance to get Citizenship with me at the same time. The most important is we already have 732 "fresh" RO days and the child can be absent in the next 3 years.

Later we will decide when to bring the child permanently to Canada depending on medical conditions. It is necessary to pass smoothly the nearest 4th year first (I mean current RO 732 days + next 3 years of absence + earn some extra 8-9 months of RO days during summer visits for the 4th year).

The child has also an option to appeal later that he was removed from Canada by parent decision when he was a kid to restore his PR if he loose it in the 4th year (by H & C). How old must be the child for THAT option (appeal)?
Thanks.

 

[Alurra71]

One thing that was not considered by you.

Your child met the RO at the time you applied for the renewed PR card.

By sending the child out of country again, the days that he/she has been gone are now removed from those days for RO.

If, for some reason, they don't allow you to get your child's PR card, when/if you try to apply for a PRTD this following summer for the child to visit, they no longer meet the RO and you applying for a PRTD brings that fact to light.

I understand how difficult it can be to raise a child with a disability alone, however, there are options available to you other than sending the child away. There are people in Canada who are able to do this daily. I would look into seeing what help is available to give you assistance with your child and also allow you to keep your job. This is the safest route for you in order to keep your childs PR in tact and to later facilitate the ability to gain citizenship. Of course, this is just my opinion on the matter.

Good luck, no matter what you choose.

 

[Helen14]

To: Alurra

I am sorry, I do not understand why every day of child absence out of Canada is removed from his RO days. The child was in Canada from Aug 2012 to Sep 2014, earned 732 RO days. If I apply for PRTD for the child, for example, in 2015 or 2016 year, the embassy will check whether the child hold 730 days calculating 5 years back from the PRTD application date. Because the child left Canada only in Sep 2014, he can be absent out of Canada almost 3 years in the future without risk to revoke his PR status (until early Sep 2017). I have the chance apply for Citizenship in Sep-Nov 2016 (4 of 6 years RO for me) and get the citizenship by the end of 2017. My own concern is to hold valid PR status for the child during citizenship application process. So if I apply every year for PRTD and will bring child back in summer for three next years, he will earn 8-9 months RO extra in 2015-2017, it allow him to maintain RO until Sep 2017 + 8-9 months more = May-June 2018. I hope it is enough to get citizenship for both of us.

As for advice "get care from other people or social workers" in Canada... It does not work in our case. We need not everyday care, we need Special Needs education at school. But all available programs are only for physical disability or authists - not our case, or I should be millionaire to send the child to the private special needs school in Canada.... We did primary school homework for 4 hours every day until night. All of officials only advised me to find and pay the specialists out of school or send the child to the private school. The Toronto school board laid off almost all specialists from the public school system (school budget reductions !) and now it is only PARENT's headache where to get school education for their sick children, e.g. with dyslexia (neuro-biological disorder to learn reading and writing, character recognition perception). At homeland my retired relatives will help the child do homework and learn at school regularly, I will earn money to support family, the relatives will assist to get special needs education IN school and outside of school extra at the essentially smaller cost than in Canada ($2000 MONTHLY at private school or pay $75+ for every lesson and go with kid to the specialist during WORK DAY hours, I must see what the specialist is doing with the child and repeat THIS lesson at home 4-5 times a week, no one nanny can replace ME, I must present at the lesson. Which single parent can afford to loose job to do that ?!). As for IQ, the child is normal, not "idiot". But he really was not able to learn at regular class. In my country we have a good system (better than in Canada !!!!) to get support dyslexic children at school. It costs me NOTHING to place him into special education stream in my country and get opportunity to finish school with oral examination instead of written ones. I never could assume that situation in Canada ("democratic" Canada, the member of G8) is so bad ... It looks like every day nightmare... In the US and UK every elementary school teacher takes special education course in their teacher program but NOT in Canada.... I and my child were full of tears every day after school...

I pay 34% + 13% HST = 47% taxes in Canada and have NOTHING useful for my sick child at school.
Where is the child rights for primary/middle/high school education guaranteed by Canadian constitution?

Have you ever heard about 100% Canadians in several generations (not PR!), e.g. in BC, who filed in the court to the provincial government to get back expenses that the parents had to pay because their child was dyslexic and was not able to learn at regular class, they had to move the child to the private school because Vancouver school board did not help their child and also cut budgets and closed all Special needs groups in their area of residence? Those parents were supported by Canadian dyslexia association and have frighten in the court for three years and have won!!! They got back expenses about $26,000 (annually) * 7 years in the private school, they even have sold their house to pay for private school to allow their child to get school (!) education (not college/university but primary and secondary school !). They moved him to the private school from grade 4.

I was really shocked to hear that. It is essentially cheaper to spend some budget (return speech and occupational therapists at public school system and return back Special Needs groups at least at big schools) and help such kind of children at school than pay them welfare for all their life later when that become non-literacy and will not be able to apply for 80% jobs. I really do not understand the Canadian government policy.

That was the reason why I sent my child back to homeland. I know also several families in Canada who did the same.
I really did not loose my (parent) head to continue keep my child in Canada for PR at "any price".
As for oral language, the dyslexic child will be able to pass listen/speak examination for the Citizenship (since 14 y.o. by new rules). It is not reading or writing.

 

[Alurra71]

To: Alurra

I am sorry, I do not understand why every day of child absence out of Canada is removed from his RO days. The child was in Canada from Aug 2012 to Sep 2014, earned 732 RO days. If I apply for PRTD for the child, for example, in 2015 or 2016 year, the embassy will check whether the child hold 730 days calculating 5 years back from the PRTD application date. Because the child left Canada only in Sep 2014, he can be absent out of Canada almost 3 years in the future without risk to revoke his PR status (until early Sep 2017). I have the chance apply for Citizenship in Sep-Nov 2016 (4 of 6 years RO for me) and get the citizenship by the end of 2017. My own concern is to hold valid PR status for the child during citizenship application process. So if I apply every year for PRTD and will bring child back in summer for three next years, he will earn 8-9 months RO extra in 2015-2017, it allow him to maintain RO until Sep 2017 + 8-9 months more = May-June 2018. I hope it is enough to get citizenship for both of us.

As for advice "get care from other people or social workers" in Canada... It does not work in our case. We need not everyday care, we need Special Needs education at school. But all available programs are only for physical disability or authists - not our case, or I should be millionaire to send the child to the private special needs school in Canada.... We did primary school homework for 4 hours every day until night. All of officials only advised me to find and pay the specialists out of school or send the child to the private school. The Toronto school board laid off almost all specialists from the public school system (school budget reductions !) and now it is only PARENT's headache where to get school education for their sick children, e.g. with dyslexia (neuro-biological disorder to learn reading and writing, character recognition perception). At homeland my retired relatives will help the child do homework and learn at school regularly, I will earn money to support family, the relatives will assist to get special needs education IN school and outside of school extra at the essentially smaller cost than in Canada ($2000 MONTHLY at private school or pay $75+ for every lesson and go with kid to the specialist during WORK DAY hours, I must see what the specialist is doing with the child and repeat THIS lesson at home 4-5 times a week, no one nanny can replace ME, I must present at the lesson. Which single parent can afford to loose job to do that ?!). As for IQ, the child is normal, not "idiot". But he really was not able to learn at regular class. In my country we have a good system (better than in Canada !!!!) to get support dyslexic children at school. It costs me NOTHING to place him into special education stream in my country and get opportunity to finish school with oral examination instead of written ones. I never could assume that situation in Canada ("democratic" Canada, the member of G8) is so bad ... It looks like every day nightmare... In the US and UK every elementary school teacher takes special education course in their teacher program but NOT in Canada.... I and my child were full of tears every day after school...

I pay 34% + 13% HST = 47% taxes in Canada and have NOTHING useful for my sick child at school.
Where is the child rights for primary/middle/high school education guaranteed by Canadian constitution?

Have you ever heard about 100% Canadians in several generations (not PR!), e.g. in BC, who filed in the court to the provincial government to get back expenses that the parents had to pay because their child was dyslexic and was not able to learn at regular class, they had to move the child to the private school because Vancouver school board did not help their child and also cut budgets and closed all Special needs groups in their area of residence? Those parents were supported by Canadian dyslexia association and have frighten in the court for three years and have won!!! They got back expenses about $26,000 (annually) * 7 years in the private school, they even have sold their house to pay for private school to allow their child to get school (!) education (not college/university but primary and secondary school !). They moved him to the private school from grade 4.

I was really shocked to hear that. It is essentially cheaper to spend some budget (return speech and occupational therapists at public school system and return back Special Needs groups at least at big schools) and help such kind of children at school than pay them welfare for all their life later when that become non-literacy and will not be able to apply for 80% jobs. I really do not understand the Canadian government policy.

That was the reason why I sent my child back to homeland. I know also several families in Canada who did the same.
I really did not loose my (parent) head to continue keep my child in Canada for PR at "any price".
As for oral language, the dyslexic child will be able to pass listen/speak examination for the Citizenship (since 14 y.o. by new rules). It is not reading or writing.

This is incorrect on your part. When you applied for your childs PR renewal, the child had 732 days, meeting the RO at that time. You must meet the RO in ANY 5 year rolling time period, meaning in 6 months you need to look back 5 years, does your child meet the RO at that point in time? The RO is not set. It doesn't start at year 5 and go another 5 years. That time period moves along each and every day. The day after your child left Canada, that RO time period began closing. If your child has been out of the country for 10 days, since you filed your PR renewal application, your child now has a day count of 722 days. 8 days short of the required 730 days. The longer your child is out of the country the more of these days he/she did have accumulated fall out of the 5 year window.

As to the rest of your statements in regards to your childs education. I can't speak to what the Canadian system does or does not have in place in regards to children with Dyslexia.

My statement was only to point out that your child will be out of RO and if you are unable to collect his/her PR card and a PRTD is needed, your child will fail to meet the RO and will be at risk to loose his/her PR. How you choose to get your child educated or even where you choose to get your child educated is completely up to you.

 

[Leon]

This is incorrect on your part. When you applied for your childs PR renewal, the child had 732 days, meeting the RO at that time. You must meet the RO in ANY 5 year rolling time period, meaning in 6 months you need to look back 5 years, does your child meet the RO at that point in time? The RO is not set. It doesn't start at year 5 and go another 5 years. That time period moves along each and every day. The day after your child left Canada, that RO time period began closing. If your child has been out of the country for 10 days, since you filed your PR renewal application, your child now has a day count of 722 days. 8 days short of the required 730 days.

She says in her original post: "The child lived with me in Canada and attended public school for 2 years. Finally, we both made new "fresh" RO 732 days during Aug 2012 - Sep 2014. "

So if the 732 days that the child spent were between August 2012 and Sep 2014, they don't start to get eaten up until the examined 5 year period starts in Sep 2012 and ends in Sep 2017 so she still has time of almost 3 years to do whatever.

If the case was that the child had spent 732 days in Canada between Aug 2009 and Sep 2011, you would be right and the child would already not meet the RO right now and would be losing more and more days the longer they stayed outside.

 

[Helen14]

Thank you, Leon!!
I agree with you opinion. The official rules for RO are 730 days out of last 5 years counting back from the application date, the child definitely follow those rules until Sep 2017. Otherwise (as Aurilla writes), nobody can leave Canada even for 1 day because "days are eaten"...

Of course, all RO days before Sep 2009 are being eaten when the child gone in Sep 2014. But is not a problem because the child has new 732 RO days
within Aug 2012 - Sep 2014. So the child really can afford be absent in Canada almost 3 years until Sep 2017.

As for education, we will solve this problem. The general doctor's advice is to separate learning of two languages in the primary school.
It is too big school load for the dyslexic child and bad for health. Later, when the base subjects have been taken in the native language, it is possible.
So we will do that later in high school.
When we landed in 2008, the child was in kindergarten age and nobody expected dyslexia. It is diagnosed in the school age.
Because it is simpler and essentially cheaper to get correction course for dyslexia in the homeland for us, we selected this way now. It's OK.

I only is very surprised seeing absolutely different "two Canadas" depending on the province. The child HAD school support in one province and COULD attend school, but got practically nothing in the other (more rich, "leading" !) province and COULD NOT attend school normally. Of course, we presented medical documents to school administration in both provinces. As a result, both the child and the parent, "we done" and "felt down" in the second province at the end of school year... Unfortunately, it is very stressful and very expensive to move frequently, unemployment in Canada is very high. I am a single parent and can't afford us to move every year along Canada and change city and province (cancel lease, cancel my good (!) permanent full time job (!), sell all home things, move to other city, find a new appartment when you do not have job (guarantor needed) and have very limited budget, get a new lease, buy furniture once more, and start to find job !!! in the new place ... Not funny at all... To send the child back to homeland was essentially simpler.

 

[Msafiri]

1. CIC at PRC pick up expect everyone to show up so they can check the veracity of declared absences by inspecting the travel documents.

2. Not much you can do now but relax and wait for CIC to get in touch with either the PRCs via mail or referal to the Local Office as the case may be.

 

[Alurra71]

She says in her original post: "The child lived with me in Canada and attended public school for 2 years. Finally, we both made new "fresh" RO 732 days during Aug 2012 - Sep 2014. "

So if the 732 days that the child spent were between August 2012 and Sep 2014, they don't start to get eaten up until the examined 5 year period starts in Sep 2012 and ends in Sep 2017 so she still has time of almost 3 years to do whatever.

If the case was that the child had spent 732 days in Canada between Aug 2009 and Sep 2011, you would be right and the child would already not meet the RO right now and would be losing more and more days the longer they stayed outside.

They landed originally in sept 2008. The child had 732 days just now in sept 2014. Are you sure they aren't moving out of ro because I sure am not.

 

[Helen14]

to: Aurilla
Absolutely sure.
Child was here after landing in 2008-2009 but those days "were eaten" for now (Sep 2014). Then child was in Canada the second time, attended school for two years from Aug 2012 to early Sep 2014, we have sent to CIC all documentation to prove the child's RO more than 730 days in 2012-2014 (all passport pages and passport stamps, school records for each term, health records, ESL school in summer, summer and winter camps, art studio, skiing classes, etc...). Child's photo was made in Canada one day before the application was sent. Canadian notary public certified the child's passport pages and stamps two days before application was sent.
Even if CIC do not give me child's PRC without child (he is less than 14 y.o. and can't sign PRC himself, parent's signature required),
I will apply for PRTD for the child and get it later, it is only the question of time and extra $50.
I, the parent, continue live in Canada and work full time, my RO is not in the doubt at all.

 

[Leon]

They landed originally in sept 2008. The child had 732 days just now in sept 2014. Are you sure they aren't moving out of ro because I sure am not.

I am sure. She says: "We have lived out of Canada more than 3 of 5 years but fortunately entered back in Aug 2012 without got reported or departure order in the entry port." so they did not meet the RO back in 2012, however, managed to return without getting reported as many people do. Since they made the RO between 2012 and 2014, they now meet the RO again and not having met it in the past can not be held against them (OP10). Immigration may only look at the past 5 years. In the past 5 years, they meet the RO and will continue to meet the RO at least until 2017.

 

[Alurra71]

I am sure. She says: "We have lived out of Canada more than 3 of 5 years but fortunately entered back in Aug 2012 without got reported or departure order in the entry port." so they did not meet the RO back in 2012, however, managed to return without getting reported as many people do. Since they made the RO between 2012 and 2014, they now meet the RO again and not having met it in the past can not be held against them (OP10). Immigration may only look at the past 5 years. In the past 5 years, they meet the RO and will continue to meet the RO at least until 2017.

Outside for 7 out of 9 years and still meet the RO. And while no malcontent is directed at the OP here, is going to get the child citizenship based on her application because the child will qualify if done in that timeframe. I'd say there are a few loopholes in CiC's inner workings.

 

[Leon]

Outside for 7 out of 9 years and still meet the RO. And while no malcontent is directed at the OP here, is going to get the child citizenship based on her application because the child will qualify if done in that timeframe. I'd say there are a few loopholes in CiC's inner workings.

They only landed in 2008 so they have been PR for 6 years now, 4 years outside, then 2 years inside.

CIC really has a loophole only allowing them to look at the past 5 years of an applicants history so if they don't catch a PR not meeting the RO when they don't and they manage to enter Canada and stay for 2 years, they will meet it again and can renew their PR cards without a problem. Of course this depends on not getting caught but there is no guarantee either that this rule will remain the way it is forever.

 

[Helen14]

We were NOT 4 of 6 years outside. We only a little exceed 3 years outside, we had very serious medical personal reasons, fortunately, all the problems gone. We passed through 4 surgeries at hospitals and have all documentation. Even if we got reported in 2012, we had enough medical reasons to appeal for H&C.

We did NOT ask Canada to pay a penny for the treatment of the child and have solved all of the problems ourselves for 3 years. We did not attended any LINK courses or other free of charge governmental programs. The Canadian government DID NOT spend a penny to support us. My English was enough to work immediately.

Now the child need not treatment, all functions are reestablished. We also never applied for welfare but MADE INVESTMENTS, a lot of money, into Canadian economics and Canadian higher education system (I earned here the 3rd post-secondary degree).

The child will definitely visit Canada several times every summer for 3 months in the next three years, and will satisfy all RO at the time of applying for the citizenship. He will get more than 4 of 8 years (not even 4 of 10 years, two 5 year periods) of RO totally since landing before applying for citizenship.

If Aurulla by some reasons permanently prefer to replace us by other immigrants (there are a lot of such non-responsible people... who's style of life is never work, never pay taxes and be sitting on welfare by YEARS .... it is OK).

I have very good, strong education and qualification that is in demand on the international market and I can find job without any problems in my home country, Europe, US and Japan. I have already worked several times by work visa in the other countries after my 30th. Only HERE I had to go to earn one more degree because I "had not Canadian experience" - a very special kind of discrimination ONLY in Canada. Other universities and companies abroad several times invited me without any local experience and paid good money for my skills, they NEEDED what I did for them, what they could not do themselves (some high-tech).

If Canada need not high qualified immigrants who work here full time and pays 47% taxes, preferring them "welfare" immigrants, and Immigration (CIC) say me "go away", I will really DO THAT. I did 50% MORE money and had essentially less stress and more fun at home with relatives and close friends than here. I was single for many years and managed do high qualified work AND do a long treatment of the sick child. I also have luxury property in my country, mortgage is already paid (finished) but I still rent in Canada. I ALREADY have ALL for normal life NOT only in Canada. I come here NOT from Africa to collect social assistance and do not work!

Canada is NOT the ONLY country available for the normal good life. The alternatives for serious qualified people are ALWAYS.

To Aurulla: shame!