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NEED HELP: Citizenship Application Declined

marido

Newbie
Feb 21, 2018
7
0
Hi

I submitted my application about a month ago, with more than 1150 days of physical presence credit. About 275 days of my credit was accumulated during about 550 days I was in Canada as a visitor, waiting for my PR application to be processed by CIC (I was being sponsored by my husband, who was a PR living in Canada at the time).

Today, I received a mail from CPC Sydney with a cover letter and my entire application package. The letter indicates that "based on the review of the information provided by you, and verification of your time in Canada prior to becoming a permanent resident, we have determined that you were not physically present in Canada for the minimum 1095 days. This discrepancy can occur for a number of reasons, however, most of the time this is due to an error in physical presence calculation. In your particular case, some or all of the time reported on the calculator (prior to Permanent Resident date) could not be verified in our records."

In my application package, I had sent them the copies of all of my flight itineraries as well as the passport stamps for every single time I have left and returned back to Canada. I think it is likely that they have missed one or more entry records in their database.

Considering that I am 100% confident that my calculations are correct and that I have fulfilled the physical presence requirements prior to my application date, what course of action fo you think is most appropriate for me to start the process of my application. Also, does that mean that the 630 CAD I have paid for my application fee is gone?

Any advice would be really appreciated.
 

Roger_notta

Star Member
Oct 15, 2017
145
70
How many trips you have taken after PR? Did you have any US trips? I am assuming you put all the dates in physical presence calculator?
 

Roger_notta

Star Member
Oct 15, 2017
145
70
Hi

I submitted my application about a month ago, with more than 1150 days of physical presence credit. About 275 days of my credit was accumulated during about 550 days I was in Canada as a visitor, waiting for my PR application to be processed by CIC (I was being sponsored by my husband, who was a PR living in Canada at the time).

Today, I received a mail from CPC Sydney with a cover letter and my entire application package. The letter indicates that "based on the review of the information provided by you, and verification of your time in Canada prior to becoming a permanent resident, we have determined that you were not physically present in Canada for the minimum 1095 days. This discrepancy can occur for a number of reasons, however, most of the time this is due to an error in physical presence calculation. In your particular case, some or all of the time reported on the calculator (prior to Permanent Resident date) could not be verified in our records."

In my application package, I had sent them the copies of all of my flight itineraries as well as the passport stamps for every single time I have left and returned back to Canada. I think it is likely that they have missed one or more entry records in their database.

Considering that I am 100% confident that my calculations are correct and that I have fulfilled the physical presence requirements prior to my application date, what course of action fo you think is most appropriate for me to start the process of my application. Also, does that mean that the 630 CAD I have paid for my application fee is gone?

Any advice would be really appreciated.
You will be able to get your money back since they did not process your application since you did not get AOR and got your application back instead
 

marido

Newbie
Feb 21, 2018
7
0
How many trips you have taken after PR? Did you have any US trips? I am assuming you put all the dates in physical presence calculator?
Thanks for your response. I have had a total of 6 trips outside of Canada after I landed, one of which was to the US. Yes I am 100% sure all the dates are written correctly in the calculator. The letter says the discrepancy is because of the pre-PR period, when I was in Canada on a visitor visa. But I only had two trip during this period, and have Canada's border entry stamps for both trips!!!
 

Roger_notta

Star Member
Oct 15, 2017
145
70
Hard to tell anything without the dates. Like when u came as visitor and when you applied pr and when citizenship.
 

marido

Newbie
Feb 21, 2018
7
0
Hard to tell anything without the dates. Like when u came as visitor and when you applied pr and when citizenship.
I came as a visitor in August 2013. Landed in March 2015. And applied for citizenship in March 2018. I was physically present in Canada for 550 calendar days between August 2013 and March 2015 as a visitor (therefore, 275 days as credit), and more than 870 days after becoming PR. I have sent them every possible document to support these dates, including tickets and passport stamps. I am really confused :(
 

spyfy

Champion Member
May 8, 2015
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Hi

I submitted my application about a month ago, with more than 1150 days of physical presence credit. About 275 days of my credit was accumulated during about 550 days I was in Canada as a visitor, waiting for my PR application to be processed by CIC (I was being sponsored by my husband, who was a PR living in Canada at the time).

Today, I received a mail from CPC Sydney with a cover letter and my entire application package. The letter indicates that "based on the review of the information provided by you, and verification of your time in Canada prior to becoming a permanent resident, we have determined that you were not physically present in Canada for the minimum 1095 days. This discrepancy can occur for a number of reasons, however, most of the time this is due to an error in physical presence calculation. In your particular case, some or all of the time reported on the calculator (prior to Permanent Resident date) could not be verified in our records."

In my application package, I had sent them the copies of all of my flight itineraries as well as the passport stamps for every single time I have left and returned back to Canada. I think it is likely that they have missed one or more entry records in their database.

Considering that I am 100% confident that my calculations are correct and that I have fulfilled the physical presence requirements prior to my application date, what course of action fo you think is most appropriate for me to start the process of my application. Also, does that mean that the 630 CAD I have paid for my application fee is gone?

Any advice would be really appreciated.
You seem to have used the entry stamps into a different country as proof of when you left Canada. That doesn't work. You could have traveled to France first (stamp A) and then to Japan (stamp B) on the same trip and then use stamp B as "proof of when you left Canada", hiding that you left earlier to go to France.

I am NOT insinuating that you did that of course. I'm just explaining why exit from Canada can't be proven by entry stamps. The same for flight itineraries. What works better is Canadian documents (leases, bills).
Could it be that you are a US citizen? In that case, exits from Canada to the US have not been recorded by Canada until very recently. So they wouldn't find that in their database.

Generally, days in Canada as a visitor can count but you need very good evidence. It seems that even the person in Sydney didn't believe it.

Your options are:
- apply again and hope someone different believes you. Unlikely to work.
- wait for 275 days and apply again.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,419
3,161
Hi

I submitted my application about a month ago, with more than 1150 days of physical presence credit. About 275 days of my credit was accumulated during about 550 days I was in Canada as a visitor, waiting for my PR application to be processed by CIC (I was being sponsored by my husband, who was a PR living in Canada at the time).

Today, I received a mail from CPC Sydney with a cover letter and my entire application package. The letter indicates that "based on the review of the information provided by you, and verification of your time in Canada prior to becoming a permanent resident, we have determined that you were not physically present in Canada for the minimum 1095 days. This discrepancy can occur for a number of reasons, however, most of the time this is due to an error in physical presence calculation. In your particular case, some or all of the time reported on the calculator (prior to Permanent Resident date) could not be verified in our records."

In my application package, I had sent them the copies of all of my flight itineraries as well as the passport stamps for every single time I have left and returned back to Canada. I think it is likely that they have missed one or more entry records in their database.

Considering that I am 100% confident that my calculations are correct and that I have fulfilled the physical presence requirements prior to my application date, what course of action fo you think is most appropriate for me to start the process of my application. Also, does that mean that the 630 CAD I have paid for my application fee is gone?

Any advice would be really appreciated.
If you are certain of your information and you have proof of status in addition to proof of dates of entry into Canada, with status, for all the pre-PR periods of time spent in Canada, you can obtain the assistance of a lawyer and pursue an application for leave to appeal, or to seek a Writ of Mandamus ordering IRCC to process the application. Note, however, this recourse would be expensive and probably take as long, if not longer, than to do as others suggest: wait to apply without relying on the days spent in Canada with visitor status.

That is, of course there is legal recourse for a wrongful decision denying an otherwise valid application for citizenship. BUT just like pursuing any civil case seeking recourse, the pursuit of any legal recourse demands a serious investment in time, money, and effort. Suggestions offered by @spyfy are probably more practical.

If you are among those who believe themselves capable of handling complex legal matters without the assistance of a lawyer, you could resubmit the application with a cover-letter demand that IRCC process the application, clearly stating the grounds for the demand, explaining the basis for including the pre-PR time in the calculation, and attaching proof of BOTH having status and date of entry with that status to support your claim.


Some Observations About Pre-PR Visitor Days:

As you are aware and others have concurred, days present in Canada prior to becoming a PR count so long as the applicant had legal status during those stays. Perhaps this is better stated as they "SHOULD" count.

However, the burden of proof is on the applicant. And that includes the burden of PROVING STATUS as well as actual presence.

While somewhat contrary to the consensus here, that is the Common-Wisdom in this forum, in respect to this I have many times CAUTIONED about the problem of actually PROVING both status and presence as a visitor. In particular, I have cautioned that if IRCC's internal records, the client's overall FOSS and GCMS records, do NOT include a formal grant of status and record of entry, an application relying on credit for such Pre-PR periods of time will very likely, at best, run into serious non-routine processing pursuant to which the applicant would be required to more thoroughly document and prove BOTH STATUS and PRESENCE. (While you are the first person I've seen report an instance of this problem since the change in law last October, there were scores of such reports under the old pre-June 2015 law; those with formal visitor status usually getting credit, albeit some subject to further proof as to actual presence, while many without formal documentation of visitor status running into a cannot-prove-it wall.)

Again, the burden of proof is on the applicant. Proving PR status, for example, is usually a matter of proving identity, and IRCC records will sufficiently show the client's status. Similarly for most instances in which an individual had formal status to be resident in Canada pursuant to a work permit or a study permit. Proving identity will facilitate IRCC in verifying the client's status as a temporary resident, pursuant to either a work or study permit.

Visitor status for many tends to be less formal, less documented.

For some visitors, such as someone from a country which is NOT visa-exempt who has applied for and obtained a formally issued visitor visa, there should be a FOSS/GCMS record of the grant of status.

It appears there is no such FOSS/GCMS record of your visitor status (or IRCC records do not document enough days with status to meet the minimum requirements). Thus, if you were issued a formal visitor's visa for the periods of time you are claiming credit, perhaps you could return the application with a cover letter requesting (demanding) IRCC process the application together with an explanation why, and with a copy of the visa(s). Obviously, the visas would need to cover all those 550 days for which you are seeking credit.

Similarly, if you were issued Visitor Records, you could copy and attach those as proof of status in Canada as a visitor during the respective time periods those VRs show you to be a visitor. (Of course, you also need proof of actual presence for all these periods of time as well. Date of entry and next date of exit probably is NOT sufficient proof for this purpose.)

However, again as @spyfy and others have suggested, the more practical approach will be to wait to apply without relying on the visitor days for credit.

Obviously, if you do not have formally issued visitor's visas or duly issued Visitor's Records, clearly covering all 550 days, the only practical recourse is to wait and apply without relying on the pre-PR credit. Rather difficult to prove status without proof of status. And without proof of status, you do not meet the requirements.


Edit to add observation about spouse sponsored inland PR applicants:

(This probably has NO relevance to your situation, but it is a common scenario.)

I do not know for sure how IRCC views the status of those who are allowed to remain in Canada while they have a spouse-sponsored inland PR application in process. Moreover, I have not been following the nuances of that process for several years now. My sense, nonetheless, is that unless the individual has formal visitor or other status, unless and until an open-work permit is issued, IRCC probably does NOT allow credit for those days. The pre-PR credit depends on BOTH temporary resident status AND actual presence. The fact that removal proceedings are held in abeyance pending an inland spouse-sponsored PR application, as a matter of policy, does not constitute a grant of temporary resident status. If in the interim the FN is issued a formal visitor visa, or Visitor Record, or the open-work permit, then those days, respectively, should be entitled to credit.
 
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Panamai

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This just happened to me as well. I have lived in Canada since December 30, 2013. I stayed here as a visitor for one year to establish common-law status with my partner, at which point I applied for PR. I stayed in Canada during the entire process, only leaving a couple of times to pick up my kids for a summer visit and to return them home to the US. These absences were less than 24 hours each. I landed as a PR on November 23, 2015. When I put the information into the calculator, I got 1188.5 days. However, despite my presence in Canada, living with my Canadian partner (now husband), being the basis of my PR application, they still say they cannot verify that I was physically present during the time before my landing. I'm pretty upset, tbh. My thoughts are that I should just wait until November and apply again to avoid more disappointment. The question I have is do I have to pay the fees again or will that payment still be good by then? I could ask for a refund and then just pay it again, except that they will keep $100 of it. I couldn't really afford the $630 as it was. :(
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,419
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This just happened to me as well. I have lived in Canada since December 30, 2013. I stayed here as a visitor for one year to establish common-law status with my partner, at which point I applied for PR. I stayed in Canada during the entire process, only leaving a couple of times to pick up my kids for a summer visit and to return them home to the US. These absences were less than 24 hours each. I landed as a PR on November 23, 2015. When I put the information into the calculator, I got 1188.5 days. However, despite my presence in Canada, living with my Canadian partner (now husband), being the basis of my PR application, they still say they cannot verify that I was physically present during the time before my landing. I'm pretty upset, tbh. My thoughts are that I should just wait until November and apply again to avoid more disappointment. The question I have is do I have to pay the fees again or will that payment still be good by then? I could ask for a refund and then just pay it again, except that they will keep $100 of it. I couldn't really afford the $630 as it was. :(
OVERALL: Best approach is to WAIT and re-apply, waiting until you meet the physical presence requirement based on days present after obtaining PR status.

You could pursue recourse in the courts, but that would be very expensive and probably actually take longer than it will to wait and re-apply when you otherwise meet the presence requirement based on days present after obtaining PR status. And my guess is that the odds of succeeding are NOT good anyway. See my previous response to the OP regarding pursuit of judicial review or a Writ of Mandamus.


Re Fees & Refunds:

I have not kept current with fees and refunds. So I do not know what refund you get. In the OP's situation I believe, but am NOT sure, the OP gets a full refund . . . or perhaps can use the same receipt when making a later application if that application is made within a certain amount of time. This BELIEF is based on the application being returned without ever being put into process.

You do not indicate at what stage of the process you have been advised "they cannot verify that I was physically present during the time before my landing." I believe the amount of refund depends on whether the application reached an "in process" status.


Re credit (or no credit) for days present prior to becoming a PR:

My previous post in response to the OP, above, also addresses this. Read that in conjunction with my further observations here.

Being physically present on Canadian soil is, itself, NOT sufficient for pre-PR credit. Pre-PR credit is limited to those days the individual was physically present in Canada WITH TEMPORARY RESIDENT STATUS. (Similarly, otherwise, credit for days physically present is dependent on having PR status.) The burden of proving status, just like the burden of proving every other element of qualification for grant citizenship, is on the applicant.

I realize that my previous cautions about this have been resoundingly dismissed in this forum by many adamantly asserting that visitors too are eligible for the pre-PR credit. AND that is TRUE. BUT credit is nonetheless subject to proof of actual presence AND PROOF of STATUS.

The matter of proof tends to be overlooked, or at least glossed over, in this forum. There tends to be an attitude which asserts: I know I meet the qualifications, therefore I am entitled to be granted citizenship (or issued a PR card, and so on), with little regard for the potential difference between what a person knows the facts to be versus what a total stranger bureaucrat will KNOW what the facts are, let alone recognizing what is necessary to conclusively show the total stranger bureaucrat what the facts are.

Thus, a couple trite but apt clichés:
-- Saying it is so does not necessarily make it so.
-- It is not what you know, it is what you can prove.



Re Proof of Visitor Status Sans Formal TRV:


First, as to proof of status generally: IRCC can and usually will verify the applicant's status based on the applicant's identity and client identification in particular. When Jaxx Applicantguy, client id ######, applies and submits sufficient information (including name, DoB, client number, bio-page of passport, and such), IRCC can readily verify Jaxx Applicantguy's PR status in the client's GCMS records, and usually also verify any pre-PR Temporary Resident status which was formally, officially, granted the client, likewise in the GCMS records. The GCMS records will show work permits, student permits, and other formally issued TRVs.

Thus, proof of identity as a particular client, and declaration of relevant dates as to status, generally suffices to prove status: IRCC simply verifies status in the client's GCMS records.


Back to Proof of Visitor Status: Many visitors to Canada are not issued formal TRVs. Americans especially, and many other visa-exempt visitors, are simply waived through PoE examinations, allowed to enter Canada as visitors subject to the general rules governing those temporarily in Canada as visitors.

I am not certain when a visitor becomes a "client" in GCMS. (I became a client a long time prior to there being GCMS, when such record would only be in FOSS or CAIPS.) These days I expect almost all visitors, at least other than Americans, to be a "client," since even visa-exempt visitors ordinarily need at least eTA in order to travel to and enter Canada, and once they have been issued eTA they become a unique client. But this was not in full operation back in 2015.

But even when a visitor has "client" status, that does not mean the visitor has been granted a formal TRV or otherwise has any formal or officially issued Temporary Resident status.

In other words: for Americans especially, even if at some point they have become a "client" (I became a client at the very least when I was first issued a Visitor's Record, again a rather long time ago now), when they are waived through the PoE examination without formal documentation of status, there will be NO formal record in their GCMS to document their status in Canada.

That, I suspect, is your situation. (Please clarify if, in contrast, you were issued a formal TRV or such.) In which case IRCC cannot verify your status in its GCMS records.

So one big question is whether or not, in the absence of a GCMS record verifying Temporary Resident status (including visitor status), it is possible for a citizenship applicant to prove he or she had such status prior to becoming a PR?


Is it possible to prove informal visitor status for purpose of pre-PR credit?

I do not know the answer to this. It may depend on how IRCC interprets what constitutes having Temporary Resident status. It appears, as most in the forum have asserted and I too believe, that formal visitor status does qualify as Temporary Resident status so as to be entitled to credit toward the citizenship presence requirement. Thus, for those who have been issued a formal TRV or even a Visitor's Record, and who can prove presence in Canada respectively, as far as we know there should be NO problem with getting credit for this period of time.

BUT what about informal visitor status? What about the visitor waived through the PoE examination?

Let me offer this: if sufficiently proved, it should count. This is my non-expert opinion.

Which, if that perspective is correct (might not be), the question then is HOW does one prove the conjunction of status and presence?

It is possible that IRCC takes the position (one way or another, that is, pursuant to this or that explanation) that if there is NO GCMS record and otherwise no formally issued TRV, that Temporary Resident status CANNOT be sufficiently proven to qualify for pre-PR credit. The OP's scenario suggests the likelihood of this, given that the application was summarily returned.


BOTTOM-LINE: As I have oft cautioned, UNLESS the applicant had formally granted Temporary Resident status, the safe approach is to NOT rely on those days to meet the presence qualification for citizenship.

Visitor status should be OK . . . BUT without a formal visa or at least a Visitor's Record, better to not rely on it.
 
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sansnom

Hero Member
Mar 10, 2017
216
36
I'm curious, did you get an application number or they just simply send back your package without even processing the case? If you got an application number, it most-likely is a formal refusal so that you won't get a refund. If you didn't get an application number, it is probably the same as if missing required documents, in which case your receipt is still valid and can be used for your future application.
 

YesCanadian

Newbie
Mar 6, 2018
9
3
visitor status does qualify as Temporary Resident status , You can not claim your period as a visitor. you have to cancel this 275 days you added. So you have to wait for 8 months
 

Joshua1

Hero Member
Nov 18, 2013
946
473
I remember last year this was a hot topic and was put in 'my place'... Counting half days as a visitor is not as simple as many assumed.
 

PMM

VIP Member
Jun 30, 2005
25,494
1,950
Hi

visitor status does qualify as Temporary Resident status , You can not claim your period as a visitor. you have to cancel this 275 days you added. So you have to wait for 8 months
1, Wrong, Visitor status is Temporary Residence Status, as long as it is in the 5 year period and you can document it, then it will be counted.