lets write to minister internatinal students

[gimmyle]

Hi All,
Ive been going through comments here so touching and really sad. I believe the best thing to do is to complain to the Minister who spearhead the whole program.
The point I will like us to put forward are 1. International students dont need LMIA to secure a job bcos they already have PGWP which allows them to get a job. And before the PGWP was granted the students must have meet the set requirement at the time.
2.Does the CIC wants student who are working already to resign and start searching for a placement elsewhere bcos their present employer is not willing to go through the stress of LMIA
3.Regarding proofs from employer , does it mean that even when job are advertise and no canadian/PR candidates applies the employer has to wait for ever because CIC wants a proof . Because most students have jobs which they were outstanding at the interview and they got offer.

 

[dukhi]

https://www.change.org/p/citizenship-and-immigration-canada-candidates-on-open-work-permit-and-working-in-canada-need-more-visibility-in-express-entry-system

 

[Ivan.Galv]

I think this problem will be 100% solved in the future by Canada ministers, but not so fast as you expect.
Firstly, International students amount in Canada will be significantly decreased because study will not grant any benefits for immigration.
And only to fix this issue, government will change Express Entry criteria to save colleges and universities from losing money.
It may be 2-4 years to pass this way from beginning to end.

You cannot just demand privileges for yourself, because open work permit owners get the jobs which Canadians could get.
Great amount of Canadians are unhappy about it. That is why CIC must prove that only those immigrant who does not steal jobs from Canadians are eligible. And LMIA is the proof of not stealing jobs.
That's why you need to wait until study industry starts to lose money because of EE and CIC will grant more benefits to students then.

 

[torontosm]

I think this problem will be 100% solved in the future by Canada ministers, but not so fast as you expect.
Firstly, International students amount in Canada will be significantly decreased because study will not grant any benefits for immigration.
And only to fix this issue, government will change Express Entry criteria to save colleges and universities from losing money.
It may be 2-4 years to pass this way from beginning to end.

You cannot just demand privileges for yourself, because open work permit owners get the jobs which Canadians could get.
Great amount of Canadians are unhappy about it. That is why CIC must prove that only those immigrant who does not steal jobs from Canadians are eligible. And LMIA is the proof of not stealing jobs.
That's why you need to wait until study industry starts to lose money because of EE and CIC will grant more benefits to students then.

The US doesn't offer any benefits for immigration to students, and yet their universities seem to be doing fine. Canadian institutions should be able to compete based on the quality of education offered, and should not have to rely upon the lure of immigration to attract students. Those who can't will shut down and that will be better for everyone in the long run.

 

[Ivan.Galv]

The US doesn't offer any benefits for immigration to students, and yet their universities seem to be doing fine. Canadian institutions should be able to compete based on the quality of education offered, and should not have to rely upon the lure of immigration to attract students. Those who can't will shut down and that will be better for everyone in the long run.

It is very wrong to think that all businesses must grow by their own without any help from government.
Study institutions is just another type of successful business which is stupid idea to bankrupt.
Canada supports many businesses, agriculture, meat, milk, pharmacy production, banks etc. Without support these areas would be bankrupt and there would be no long run benefits for anyone inside Canada.

Of cause, it is great when business can grow and win any competitions without support. But if a business is not so strong to win anyone in the world, it is not enough reason to force it's bankruptcy.

 

[torontosm]

It is very wrong to think that all businesses must grow by their own without any help from government.
Study institutions is just another type of successful business which is stupid idea to bankrupt.
Canada supports many businesses, agriculture, meat, milk, pharmacy production, banks etc. Without support these areas would be bankrupt and there would be no long run benefits for anyone inside Canada.

Of cause, it is great when business can grow and win any competitions without support. But if a business is not so strong to win anyone in the world, it is not enough reason to force it's bankruptcy.

Canadian immigration is not for sale. It should never be used as a tool to prop up businesses in any fashion. The government does provide funding and other benefits/subsidies to universities and that is more than ample for the ones that should survive to continue to survive.

If this new program means that suddenly attendance at ECE programs of third rate, unheard of colleges drop, it's all for the better in my opinion. It will serve to weed out those people who are only using Canadian schools as a backdoor to gain PR status.

 

[Ivan.Galv]

Canadian immigration is not for sale. It should never be used as a tool to prop up businesses in any fashion. The government does provide funding and other benefits/subsidies to universities and that is more than ample for the ones that should survive to continue to survive.

If this new program means that suddenly attendance at ECE programs of third rate, unheard of colleges drop, it's all for the better in my opinion. It will serve to weed out those people who are only using Canadian schools as a backdoor to gain PR status.

Canadian immigration IS FOR SALE, but for FAIR SALE, rule-based sale, not cheating. You cannot claim education as a backdoor, because it is approved way to immigrate. Double-intent study was documented by CIC to be allowed without any penalties. Immigration is exactly for getting money, wealth and market advantages to all Canadians and Canadian companies. Don't be delusional, immigration is not for altruistic bright purposes like peace everywhere in the world.
Subsidies to universities and colleges do help to survive, but only great amount of international students moves big money into Canada from outside. So subsidies cannot replace immigration benefits for international students. More money country gets from outside - more wealthier country becomes. Canadian education is export-oriented service. Like selling maple syrup.
If you start destroying export-oriented service, then you will have two simple consequences:
1)Canadian dollar rate start falling down
2)Canadian people become poor and unwealthy

Maybe universities will not be bankrupt in this case, but it will be impossible to set international tuition fee 2-3 times bigger than domestic fee. Less benefits=cheaper price for service.

By the way, in 2013 there were mass strike for immigration officers and nobody granted study permits for 4-6 months. By August 2013 government started to grant study visas as easy as never to save colleges. As you can see, elected people do understand how students flow is important to Canada. It proved they will never let colleges to lose money. Moreover, they want to increase amount of students year-to-year.

 

[torontosm]

Canadian immigration IS FOR SALE, but for FAIR SALE, rule-based sale, not cheating. You cannot claim education as a backdoor, because it is approved way to immigrate. Double-intent study was documented by CIC to be allowed without any penalties. Immigration is exactly for getting money, wealth and market advantages to all Canadians and Canadian companies. Don't be delusional, immigration is not for altruistic bright purposes like peace everywhere in the world.
Subsidies to universities and colleges do help to survive, but only great amount of international students moves big money into Canada from outside. So subsidies cannot replace immigration benefits for international students. More money country gets from outside - more wealthier country becomes. Canadian education is export-oriented service. Like selling maple syrup.
If you start destroying export-oriented service, then you will have two simple consequences:
1)Canadian dollar rate start falling down
2)Canadian people become poor and unwealthy

Maybe universities will not be bankrupt in this case, but it will be impossible to set international tuition fee 2-3 times bigger than domestic fee. Less benefits=cheaper price for service.

By the way, in 2013 there were mass strike for immigration officers and nobody granted study permits for 4-6 months. By August 2013 government started to grant study visas as easy as never to save colleges. As you can see, elected people do understand how students flow is important to Canada. It proved they will never let colleges to lose money. Moreover, they want to increase amount of students year-to-year.

The fact that very few, if any, other developed Western nations offer immigration programs to students similar to what Canada used to, and yet their educational systems remain intact automatically disproves your point. If all of these earth shattering, doomsday scenarios were indeed realistic, why haven't they happened in the US? I don't see the USD plummeting or Americans becoming poor and "unwealthy" because they didn't hand out green cards to students. Canada will similarly be fine, with or without these students.

 

[Ivan.Galv]

The fact that very few, if any, other developed Western nations offer immigration programs to students similar to what Canada used to, and yet their educational systems remain intact automatically disproves your point. If all of these earth shattering, doomsday scenarios were indeed realistic, why haven't they happened in the US? I don't see the USD plummeting or Americans becoming poor and "unwealthy" because they didn't hand out green cards to students. Canada will similarly be fine, with or without these students.

Because US is the leader on this market. They can afford to be unsupported by anyone.
If you leave all companies to their own all over the world, only China and US will feel good. They would get 100% market share or buy all competitors. That's why all countries have subsidies, restrictions and other support actions.
You can talk your ideas only if the industry you are talking about is the world leader.
Canada is not USA, many industries can be easily defeated by USA power if unprotected.
Same as Google, Apple and Microsoft. They are leaders. Blackberry was left without support and there is no more BlackBerry. I hope you see how it helps to all Canadians in long run - all those ruins of large hi-tech company.

 

[Mbgirlfriend]

https://www.change.org/p/citizenship-and-immigration-canada-candidates-on-open-work-permit-and-working-in-canada-need-more-visibility-in-express-entry-system

While I understand that is must suck for many people here on student visas that would like to stay and what I am going to say may sound harsh but it is the truth.

I am a born Canadian and even though for personal reasons (wanting my boyfriend here) I partly wish it was easier to immigrate. As a Canadian I am sick of seeing people buy there way into Canada (by going to school here) and take jobs from Canadians by playing the system. Even in this petition its states that foreign student had to compete for the jobs they have. The problem is that they compete against Canadians and get them over people already having PR or citizenship. As a Canadian this is complete garbage and not fair to us. So excuse me if I don't really care if its not "fair" to people who came here to study and work and now they have to prove that by staying here they won't take jobs from us.

Another point in this petition was that students are young and healthy so they are not a drain on Canada. However what is happening in many cases one person in a family is sent to school in Canada to basically buy PR then after that the person with PR starts sponsoring family members. Many times these family members do not have any special skills and just end up taking more jobs. Many will sponsor their parents that in a few years will start need health care (that they never paid into). This is very damaging to Canada.

I would also say that if this petition got any kind of recognition it could hurt many immigrants as it comes of as feeling entitled. Reading it made me angry (and not in favour of making it easier for students) I was angry at how entitled and selfish it came off. I am a person who understand how immigration is important to Canada and that it is needed for the economy. I also understand the wrong kind of immigration will and has hurt Canada. Immigration that takes jobs from Canadians hurts us.

 

[Ivan.Galv]

While I understand that is must suck for many people here on student visas that would like to stay and what I am going to say may sound harsh but it is the truth.

I am a born Canadian and even though for personal reasons (wanting my boyfriend here) I partly wish it was easier to immigrate. As a Canadian I am sick of seeing people buy there way into Canada (by going to school here) and take jobs from Canadians by playing the system. Even in this petition its states that foreign student had to compete for the jobs they have. The problem is that they compete against Canadians and get them over people already having PR or citizenship. As a Canadian this is complete garbage and not fair to us. So excuse me if I don't really care if its not "fair" to people who came here to study and work and now they have to prove that by staying here they won't take jobs from us.

Another point in this petition was that students are young and healthy so they are not a drain on Canada. However what is happening in many cases one person in a family is sent to school in Canada to basically buy PR then after that the person with PR starts sponsoring family members. Many times these family members do not have any special skills and just end up taking more jobs. Many will sponsor their parents that in a few years will start need health care (that they never paid into). This is very damaging to Canada.

I would also say that if this petition got any kind of recognition it could hurt many immigrants as it comes of as feeling entitled. Reading it made me angry (and not in favour of making it easier for students) I was angry at how entitled and selfish it came off. I am a person who understand how immigration is important to Canada and that it is needed for the economy. I also understand the wrong kind of immigration will and has hurt Canada. Immigration that takes jobs from Canadians hurts us.

I understand your position, but I disagree that sponsoring family is damaging for Canada.
You would better stop thinking about this world like something static and unchangeable. What do you see? Jobs and pensions-based economies? No, you do not.
You see the replacing people jobs with automation, robots etc....Soon there will be 99% jobs replaced by computers only. It is not bad thing, all people will be jobless and receive subsidies-money, but you will not have less food or smaller amount of Iphones.
The only important thing is to be THAT country who have developed industry for creating these hi-tech things. The most computerized countries will have everything while countries-outsiders will have nothing.
And finally, aging and deaths will be defeated by medicine and science - you should also wish this moment to come faster.
It is not extra-far future. It may happen in nearest 30-40 years. So you would better start thinking not like it is still 20th century. The old people problem will disappear soon enough and the damage is over-estimated.
Therefore, you should worry only how to let right people to do right things and create computerization as fast as possible. I am talking about highly-educated people, many of them are international students in Canada now. Do you really want them to move back to India/China etc and leave Canada with lazy born-Canadians who can do nothing really valuable for changing the world except protecting their priority right to work?

 

[mf4361]

@Mbgirlfriend

I do agree that this petition is badly written in a way that people might think immigrants feels entitled to PR and thus making us immigrant-wannabe look bad to locals. I don't fully agree with them and thus didn't sign it despite in my flavor.

However, I concur the point on LMIA requirements is unfair to grads because expecting new graduates (Canadian or otherwise) to earn prevalent wage in a skilled job is close to impossible. Remember prevalent wage is about the median wage of a specific occupation across all levels, entry to senior.

Companies values experiences in technical / skilled jobs, meaning an experienced position earns a lot more than an entry level position. An engineering job, for example, can range from $15 to >$100 per hour, depending on level (entry to senior), location and professional title. Those without professional title is a bit better, but the relation exist. As oppose to an experienced Tim Horton server earns about the same as a new guy (No offense).

One of the main reason LMIA was created to supersede LMO is to fight against abuse of foreign workers policies by companies. e.g. A Mcdonald franchise in Victoria and Edmonton fired local workers and hired foreign workers for a lower wage and easier to abuse their living environment.

Graduates usually search for jobs like Canadians, go through the same processes and interviews like Canadians, although I have no proof of this: earn similar wages as Canadians.

Being educated in Canada, doesn't automatically gets, nor it's entitled to, PR even before EE. (That would be a huge social problem if it is like that) PGWP is issued upon graduation, but getting a job isn't. Those who applied CEC have worked for 1 year in skilled jobs, showing their ability in the job market. This means, you can buy a degree, you can't buy a job.

 

[praneet87]

Do you understand why immigration is important to Canada? what is your population? 35 million? that is the population of California. The country has crazy amount of resources and GDP and can really compete to be top 5. The lack of population is hurting it. That is one primary reason why it needs immigration.

Another point that people get wrong on this forum. We do not pay three times the fees. Canadians and PRs pay 1/3rd the fees. If they are paying 3k and we are paying 10k for a semester, it is because it costs the university 10k to educate us. The government subsidizes local students. They don't subsidize us because our parents didn't pay tax here.

Education industry will take a hit IF CEC takes a hit. Which it will not. There has been one *censored word*ing pick. People on this forum are very very paranoid. Those who think the education industry is going to do fine are stupid period. International students who come to the country to learn and settle are arguably the best form of immigration. The country gets new skilled labour trained in the country's own standards. Now in a perfect world every student will enter a reputed university and pass out but unfortunately the world isn't perfect and there will be some students who will take the cheapest course possible.

And to the locals who cry that the foreigners take their jobs; I am sorry to say this but you are stupid. No in all honesty; what do you expect? A company will take you over a qualified individual just because you were born here? How is that profitable to the company? If you are using an iphone over a BlackBerry then you have no *censored word*ing right to say that. You will choose what is best for you; same is with any profitable company. If a foreign student has better grades than you, then tough luck.

I didn't get my job handed to me because I was an international student; I got a job in spite of being an international student. If you as a local, whos gotten canadian education since birth have lost a job opportunity to a foreigner who doesn't speak the language as good as you then you are stupid. Learn to progress and compete.

 

[praneet87]

I agree that this petition is stupid, premature and badly worded. We didn't get shafted. If in 3-4 more picks things didn't improve a better worded petition would have made sense. Now it just makes us PGWP workers look bad.

 

[mf4361]

More on abuse of foreign workers and LMIA.

There are hiring agencies specialize in helping Canadian companies hiring from outside the country. These agencies matches jobs with the client companies in Canada, arranges interviews and prepare document. Canadian companies liked them because even after all fees, they are still paying cheaper for foreign labourers because (especially for lower skilled jobs) foreigners would agree to get paid much less than locals, in exchange for working in Canada and potential for PR. And thus the incentive to fire local people.

Besides, unethical companies can control their work and living environments by threatening to take their jobs away. And when they do, the foreign worker has to go home. This is practically enslaving them. E.g. Edmonton McDonald

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/mcdonald-s-foreign-workers-call-it-slavery-1.2612659

This is clearly unethical and of course CIC have to do something here. Thus the new rules in LMIA.

Ask any PGWP are "benefited" from these situations.