Confused about this Letter from LVO need help

[knighthunter001]

Hey there guys i just received this email from the LVO and im very confused.....

first off here is a little background.

I am a Canadian Citizen ( born n raised ) and also the Sponsor

My Wife is a Pakistani Citizen ( The Applicant )

I was residing in Pakistan from Oct 2008 till Nov 2015 ( now in Canada ) but ...

I was previously divorced in July 2009 ( in Pakistan .. have a divorce certificate to prove though the people at the Nadra office wrote the wrong date which my mrs will have to get fixed "says june 2009 when it should of stated July 2009" )

Re Married in Nov 2010 ( have Marriage Certificate to prove the same )

To my knowledge under Pakistani Law a male does not need 90 days to wait before he can re marry. This would only apply to the female.

If my math is correct from the time i was divorced till the time i got married that is 16 months ( 1 yr and 4 month ). Now just yesterday i received an email from the LVO stating that they still think i was married to my previous wife while i was getting married to my current wife. Below is what LVO Officer wrote and i have 30 days to reply with more proof and/or Evidence ... i dont know what else to tell the Officer .. if anyone can help out with ideas ....


"This refers to your application for permanent residence in Canada as a member of the Family Class.
I have reviewed your application and all of the documents you submitted in support of it. It appears that you may not meet the requirements for immigration to Canada.
I have determined that you may not meet the requirements of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act because you do not appear to meet R 117(9).
Paragraph R117(9)(c)(i) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations states that a foreign national shall not be considered a member of the family class by virtue of their relationship to a sponsor if
(c) the foreign national is the sponsor's spouse and
(i) the sponsor or the foreign national was, at the time of their marriage, the spouse of another person
I have concerns that your sponsor was the spouse of another person at the time of your marriage and therefore that you do not qualify as a member of the family class. My concerns revolve around the divorce documentation that you and your sponsor has provided. According to divorce laws in Pakistan the husband pronounces talaq (oral or by way of Deed of Divorce) and sends written notice by registered post to the Union Council, mentioning the address of his wife. Thereafter the concerned Union Council sends a copy of the notice to wife by registered post and it constitutes arbitration Council within 30 days of receipt of notice. Once the iddat period (90 days from the date the union council receives the talaq notice) is over, the union council will issue a certificate of Talaq being effective to the husband and wife.
Your sponsor has presented the divorce deed dated either June 2009 or July 2009 (it is not clear) in which he states his intention to divorce his former spouse. You have provided a letter dated 23 July 2009 which your sponsor’s solicitors sent to your sponsor’s first wife, which appears to confirm that the divorce has taken effect. This would suggest that a 90 day period of iddat has not been observed.

Furthermore, I note that In the divorce certificate provided (issued by Govt of Sindh on July 2014), the ‘date of notice for divorce’ is given as 13 June 2009 and both the ‘date of failure of conciliation’ and ‘date of effectiveness of divorce’ are given as the same date of 13 June 2009. This again suggests that there was no period of iddat observed at all, let alone 90 days.
If your sponsor’s divorce was not legal under Pakistani Law, then he was therefore the spouse of another at the time he married you. You would therefore not be considered to be a member of the family class under R1117(9)(c)(i)
Before a final decision is made, you are being given 30 days to provide a response to the above concerns. You are requested to provide a statement addressing my concerns along with any other evidence you wish to provide.
If you choose not to respond with additional information within 30 days, I will make my decision based on the information before me, which may result in the refusal of your application.
If not in English or French, all documents must be accompanied by English or French translations. Please quote your complete application number on your correspondence
Please use this opportunity to address my concerns and indicate any further information you would like to be considered in respect of your application
If your application is refused, you may reapply, but you will be required to submit a new application and pay a new processing fee. A new application would be assessed based on the selection criteria and legislation in force at the time that the new application is received.
Sincerely,
Immigration Officer "


Now the only problem and maybe confusion that the LVO Immigration officer has is that in the Divorce deed is a stamped paper which has the date of June 2009 (as stamped affidavits have backdated stamps) but in the Deed itself is written in 2 to 3 place July 21st 2009. i hope and pray that is the only confusion.

i dont know what to write to the LVO ... i can explain all this and even have my mrs get a new divorce transcript from the Nadra office in Pakistan, but would that help ?


would love to get some ideas n help on the matter as i only have 30 days ... all other documentation is done medical cleared ... this is the only thing that is pending.

hope to hear from someone soon !

 

[jomz]

Your problem is with the dates. The time you give notice to the Union of intention to divorce they need to wait 90 days before they can issue a divorce certificate. So if your notice was June 13, 2009 the divorce certificate has to be dated 90 days after the notice which would be September 11, 2009. If your notice for divorce was June 13 and your divorce certificate dated before September 11 than your divorce was not correctly registered therefore your current wife is not recognized as your legal spouse under Canadian laws for immigration purposes.

Since you lived in Pakistan with your current wife ask the LVO to amend your application to show your wife as a common law spouse. What I would do in your case is write the visa office and thank them for bringing this to your attention. Let them know you relayed on the information from the union to dissolve the marriage and all these years you thought they have.

 

[jomz]

Here are the rules concerning divorce in Pakistan by the husband.

Divorce/Talaq by the Husband
Under MFLO limited reforms have also been introduced in relation to talaq. Under MFLO a divorcing husband shall, as soon as possible after talaq has been pronounced, in whatever form, give a notice in writing to the chairman of the Union Council. The chairman must then supply a copy of the notice of talaq to the wife. Non-compliance is punishable by imprisonment and/or a fine. Within thirty days of receipt of the notice of talaq, the chairman must constitute an Arbitration Council in order to take steps to bring about a reconciliation between the husband and the wife. If and when such attempts to negotiate a reconciliation fail, a talaq that is not revoked in the meantime, either expressly or implicitly, takes effect after the expiry of ninety days from the day on which the notice of repudiation was first delivered to the chairman. If, however, the wife is pregnant at the time of the pronouncement of talaq, the talaq does not take effect until ninety days have elapsed or the end of the pregnancy, whichever is later.

 

[knighthunter001]

Your problem is with the dates. The time you give notice to the Union of intention to divorce they need to wait 90 days before they can issue a divorce certificate. So if your notice was June 13, 2009 the divorce certificate has to be dated 90 days after the notice which would be September 11, 2009. If your notice for divorce was June 13 and your divorce certificate dated before September 11 than your divorce was not correctly registered therefore your current wife is not recognized as your legal spouse under Canadian laws for immigration purposes.

Since you lived in Pakistan with your current wife ask the LVO to amend your application to show your wife as a common law spouse. What I would do in your case is write the visa office and thank them for bringing this to your attention. Let them know you relayed on the information from the union to dissolve the marriage and all these years you thought they have.

Thanks for the reply


So does this mean if my date of divorce on the deed is July 21st 2009 then on the Divorce certificate it should be written Oct 21st 2009 ?

there are 3 dates on the Divorce certificate. If you can correct me on these dates please .....


Date of Notice for Divorce : ( should be July 21st 2009 )

Date of Failure of Conciliation : ( what does this mean ??? )

Date of Effectiveness of Divorce : ( This should be Oct 21st 2009 ?? )

Date of issuance : ( this would be the date of when the divorce certificate was issued ? correct )



please do let me know !

 

[knighthunter001]

Here are the rules concerning divorce in Pakistan by the husband.

Divorce/Talaq by the Husband
Under MFLO limited reforms have also been introduced in relation to talaq. Under MFLO a divorcing husband shall, as soon as possible after talaq has been pronounced, in whatever form, give a notice in writing to the chairman of the Union Council. The chairman must then supply a copy of the notice of talaq to the wife. Non-compliance is punishable by imprisonment and/or a fine. Within thirty days of receipt of the notice of talaq, the chairman must constitute an Arbitration Council in order to take steps to bring about a reconciliation between the husband and the wife. If and when such attempts to negotiate a reconciliation fail, a talaq that is not revoked in the meantime, either expressly or implicitly, takes effect after the expiry of ninety days from the day on which the notice of repudiation was first delivered to the chairman. If, however, the wife is pregnant at the time of the pronouncement of talaq, the talaq does not take effect until ninety days have elapsed or the end of the pregnancy, whichever is later.

Thanks for the reply


So does this mean if my date of divorce on the deed is July 21st 2009 then on the Divorce certificate it should be written Oct 21st 2009 ?

there are 3 dates on the Divorce certificate. If you can correct me on these dates please .....


Date of Notice for Divorce : ( should be July 21st 2009 )

Date of Failure of Conciliation : ( what does this mean Huh )

Date of Effectiveness of Divorce : ( This should be Oct 21st 2009 ?? )

Date of issuance : ( this would be the date of when the divorce certificate was issued ? correct )



please do let me know !

 

[knighthunter001]

so what does that mean ? am i not married to my current wife ? ? ? ? ?

ive been married in Nov 2010 ...

i gave my Divorce in July 2009 its i got married 14 months after ...

this is weird ... we are on the final stages and this comes up ... i can tell the LVO office that yes there were problems with the dates .. but im still married with my current wife with my 2 kids with her ... i cant dissolve this marriage ...

Or does this mean if my date of divorce on the deed is July 21st 2009 then on the Divorce certificate it should be written Oct 21st 2009 ?

does it mean that ???

if that is the case please do let me know

 

[deplix]

please i am on same situation if u can help me what you get in decision and what proof you provide to satisfied them
waiting your reply

 

[canadianwoman]

Go to a lawyer in Pakistan and get him to write a letter describing Pakistani divorce laws and showing how your divorce is in fact in compliance with these laws.
It looks to me like the OP's divorce was not in compliance with these laws. If yours is like his, then asking the visa officer to reconsider the application as a common-law application might work, if you have lived with your wife for at least one continuous year.

 

[Tareq10]

Hi ..... While trying to figure out, I want to ask you that if dates have already been got corrected from Nadra, cant CIC view it just by putting your ID in that online database? I think CIC must have obtained such facility for cross checks from the government. They can verify that correction of date in your divorce certificate themselves. Cant they ? Or they just rely on the documents you provide? I mean the background checks does not include document verification from organizations like Nadra maintaining personal databases.

 

[usmanimu]

Thanks for the reply


So does this mean if my date of divorce on the deed is July 21st 2009 then on the Divorce certificate it should be written Oct 21st 2009 ?

there are 3 dates on the Divorce certificate. If you can correct me on these dates please .....


Date of Notice for Divorce : ( should be July 21st 2009 )

Date of Failure of Conciliation : ( what does this mean Huh )

Date of Effectiveness of Divorce : ( This should be Oct 21st 2009 ?? )

Date of issuance : ( this would be the date of when the divorce certificate was issued ? correct )



please do let me know !

Hi, I am also in the same situation and going through all the paperwork to prove to CIC that my wife was indeed spererated from her first husband. Union council had messed up the dates with ought reflecting the 90 day iddat period which was indeed observed.

Right now i am gona get a new certificate issued soon with corrected dates. Any idea if the issuance date and entry date can be of now when the new certificate is being issued or shud i get those dates backdated to Nov 23 ,2014 when the certifcate shud have origanlly been issued exactly 90 days after the notice to Union council date.

 

[khancanada]

According to Visa Officer he stated in his email "You have provided a letter dated 23 July 2009 which your sponsor’s solicitors sent to your sponsor’s first wife, which appears to confirm that the divorce has taken effect. This would suggest that a 90 day period of iddat has not been observed."

This letter from your Lawyer played a vital role confusing your Visa Officer to think your divorce with your first wife was not valid and you were still in marital relationship with your wife even though you married after 16 months. How come your lawyer sent a letter to your first wife on July 23rd, 2009, confirming that divorce has taken place? as you have given divorce to your first wife on July 13th, 2009 so the letter from your lawyer should indicate a date after at least minimum of 90 days which should be Oct 13th 2009 OR Onward.
that's why visa office is saying 90 days Iddat is not been observed but that should consider as a mistake from your lawyer side like typo?
You can try to have it corrected from your lawyer that july 23rd, 2009 was a mistake from your lawyer side.
I m also confused why there was need of your lawyer to sent a letter to your first wife indicating divorce did happen? as yours OR your lawyer job was done once the divorce deed was mailed to union council and then UC should start their job, notifying your first wife, setting up a 30 days reconcilation period, if nothing worked out, after 90 days issuing you a divorce certificate.
Also i m wondering, once you have a divorce certificate, where there was need of providing a copy of letter to visa office that your lawyer sent to your ex wife dated july 23rd, 2009. All visa officer needed from your side was a valid divorce Certificate with correct dates.
This letter that you sent to visa officer screwed up your application my friend.
You have to very careful with each and every steps you are taken now as if you are not able to satisfy visa officer with your responses if may be ended up refusing the application and your 2nd wife will be stuck in Pakistan and you may have to go for appeal process which may also takes more than a year. Good Luck!

 

[Child case]

Hi all, same situation with me, visa office ask me to provide divorce notice, divorce certificate and arbitration letter, but I don’t have letters or arbitration also Nadra made same mistakes in dates my divorce notice/failure of conciliation /effective date same so now what should I do. I have court maintenance decree papers of my son who is in the custody of my xwife, does this help proofing my divorce is genuine or I need to arrange any official letter instead of arbitation does it work

 

[jaffaral]

Hi all, same situation with me, visa office ask me to provide divorce notice, divorce certificate and arbitration letter, but I don’t have letters or arbitration also Nadra made same mistakes in dates my divorce notice/failure of conciliation /effective date same so now what should I do. I have court maintenance decree papers of my son who is in the custody of my xwife, does this help proofing my divorce is genuine or I need to arrange any official letter instead of arbitation does it work

So what did u do then?

 

[umairz]

Hey guys,

So can you guys share your experiences as to what you provided/did for this PFL?

Unfortunately I am in the same boat.

Since some of you have gone thru the process, can you please shed some light on it.

Regards,

 

[l37]

To everyone in this situation - you have to make sure your certificate follows Muslim Family Laws Ordinance 1961. It does not matter if the divorce deed has one talaq, or three - the 90 day period must be shown in the Union Council Certificate. Western countries such as the US and Canada will follow the letter of the law - and for Muslims in Pakistan, that is Muslim Family Laws Ordinance 1961. Many people in the US have faced similar issues (see posts on the visajourney.com forum), and were only able to fix these issues once the dates on their certificates were corrected.

Using the above example:

Date of Notice for Divorce : ( should be July 21st 2009 )

Date of Failure of Conciliation : This is the date where it was determined that the couple did not reconcile - this would be the same as the date of effectiveness of divorce, so notice date + 90 days. October 21, 2019 (this is technically 91 days)

Date of Effectiveness of Divorce : Make sure you count 90 days, and then add 1 day since MFLO 1961 says "at the expiration of 90 days, the divorce is effective" You can always go more than 90 days, but do not go less than 90. October 21 or after (22, etc) would be fine.