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Attempt to cross border as PR with expired card

princessofdiamonds

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Jan 6, 2016
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Update on my situation. As you know, I travel back and forth as a visitor and found out I was still a PR when I recieved an email rejecting an ETA. I was thinking of coming back as a visitor and then 'possibly' staying.

However, I spoke to a lawyer and he said that I would surely be done for misrepresentation , because there is evidence from CIC that I still hold permanent residency, and just deciding to stay 'won't wash'. YIKES - he said I would have a ban.

SO - he suggested to attempt crossing the border, which I'm going to do. I'm hoping to GOD that I have an officer that won't report me. My Mom and Dad (Both Canadian citizens) will be coming to pick me up and cross over with me, I'm hoping this also works in my favour - that I'm 'just returning from holiday'. Last time I was in Canada was in May, so It's not like I've been gone forever. My card expired 2013... wish me luck!


Just thought I would update :)
 

Ponga

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Oct 22, 2013
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So...do you ever plan to enter Canada and remain in Canada for at least two years...in the hopes that you do not lose your PR?
 

Rob_TO

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princessofdiamonds said:
However, I spoke to a lawyer and he said that I would surely be done for misrepresentation , because there is evidence from CIC that I still hold permanent residency, and just deciding to stay 'won't wash'. YIKES - he said I would have a ban.
Ya that would never happen in reality. Whether CBSA admits you as a visitor or PR, is pretty much completely irrelevant when it comes time to eventually renew your PR card when you're back in compliance with the RO. IRCC will not go back and check HOW you got into Canada. They will simply check that you meet 2 years of residency in the past 5 years, and approve the PR renewal based solely on that. So if you got in as a visitor, it would never be an issue.

Of course you should always be honest with CBSA, since they can determine your PR status on the spot if you go to secondary inspection. If CBSA thinks you're trying to deceive them by pretending to be a visitor when in fact you're a PR, that is where you'll get into trouble. Although this would be extremely rare, as there are countless cases of PRs mistakenly thinking their PR status was automatically revoked due to staying outside Canada a long time, and being genuinely surprised when CBSA tells them they're a PR.
 

princessofdiamonds

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Jan 6, 2016
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There seems to be conflicting stories about this. Im scared that I would be done for misrepresentation as there is a chance they could go back two years . It would be my last travel history so it would flag straight away. I think crossing the border with my family is the honest Option and hope for the best :)
 

Ponga

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Oct 22, 2013
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Is an eTA a Travel Document? If it is...isn't it possible that this OP has a similar problem, to this person:
http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/entering-canada-by-land-with-expired-pr-card-ro-not-met-t432247.0.html;msg5290571#msg5290571

Is CIC now already aware of the RO non-compliance? Is it possible that `the cat is out of the bag', so to speak?
 

princessofdiamonds

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No. Basically it could have been filled by mistake. Ive had no further communication and I applied for that back in March. So haven't been reported for that as of yet
 

Ponga

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princessofdiamonds said:
No. Basically it could have been filled by mistake. Ive had no further communication and I applied for that back in March. So haven't been reported for that as of yet
Don't forget that CIC and CBSA share information, regarding entry/exit data, so it IS possible that [someone] knows that you have not met your RO.

Good luck!
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Regarding observation by lawyer about misrepresentation:

The issue is making a misrepresentation to a border official at a Canadian PoE, or in an application to IRCC (of any kind).

I have previously referred to and cited (probably linked as well) at least two cases published in the last several months involving PRs prosecuted for making residency related misrepresentations at a PoE upon arrival from abroad.

It not only can happen, it does happen, it has happened. The lawyer is absolutely right to caution about this.

Now these reported cases were egregious. I do not recall the names or details off the top of my head, but in one, for example, the PR not only made a misrepresentation about how long he had been outside Canada, but had actually made some forged stamps in his passport to look like he had exited and entered (I think it was Egypt) on additional dates, to correspond to his misrepresentations about the last time he was in Canada and how long he had been outside Canada. I suspect that either the forged stamps were very poorly done, or had telltale indicators in them, or FOSS had already flagged this individual for elevated scrutiny upon arrival and thus was examining the individual and his documents extra carefully.

And that is a huge factor: Whether an individual has been flagged.

No flag, frequent trips in and out of Canada, a visa-exempt passport, and a simple response if asked about why no renewed PR card, such as did not think I needed one since I have been able to travel OK using my passport, and otherwise not making any misrepresentations, odds are good there will be no problem.

But, of course, any time a PR arrives at a PoE and is in breach of the PR Residency Obligation, there is a risk of being examined and reported. Those odds increase for a PR without a valid PR card. Probably a good idea to be prepared to honestly explain why abroad so much and plans to return to home, to live near parent's home, and otherwise give reasons why you deserve to retain PR status.

Better to not panic, if questioned, so do NOT panic and try fudging about the amount of time abroad, just trying to get a pass through the PoE without being reported. Even if there is no action taken for misrepresentation, just compromising one's credibility can have serious consequences. For example, if it came to making an appeal based on H&C reasons, a person who has been coming and going and whose parents are settled in Canada, probably can put together a decent H&C argument . . . but if the individual's credibility has been compromised due to less than honest responses to the officers, that can make it a lot, lot more difficult to succeed with the H&C case.

In contrast, most of us probably would not remember details anyway, so it is OK to not have a clear memory of total time spent here or there, especially if there was a lot of coming and going. While it is much better to not be evasive (I don't remember is at least somewhat evasive, no matter how true it is), but being vague about precise details not clear in one's memory may be the best approach one has in this situation. BUT it would be a really BAD idea to misrepresent the amount of time in Canada or abroad. Odds are good that with frequent travel in and out of Canada, traveling with Canadian citizen parents, not a clear recall of precisely how much time was spent in or out of Canada, but clear about more recent dates of time in and out of Canada, that it will go well . . . no guarantees . . . but it should go OK.
 

Rob_TO

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princessofdiamonds said:
There seems to be conflicting stories about this. Im scared that I would be done for misrepresentation as there is a chance they could go back two years . It would be my last travel history so it would flag straight away. I think crossing the border with my family is the honest Option and hope for the best :)
As i said, the issue is with CBSA. If they think you're trying to deceive them, then you may suffer immediate consequences.

If CBSA allows you in (as a visitor or as a PR) with no problem, then after that you are in the clear. As i said, IRCC will NOT go back and check how you entered Canada, the purpose of the PR renewal is just to prove you've met the 2 in 5 years RO rule... not to determine HOW you entered Canada.
 

princessofdiamonds

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Jan 6, 2016
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Im really confused guys. The lawyer told me when the time came to renew my PR card two years down the line , he said they will see I entered as a visitor two years ago and that I misrepresented myself at the port of entry as a visitor , as it is illegal for a PR to enter as a visitor. He wasn't talking about when entering the country , he was talking about 2 years down the line.

I looked up the lawyer and he's been one of the best in canada and also was extremely expensive , I chose one of the best because I wanted to be absolutely clear , and now it seems that this isn't the case ?
 

kateg

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princessofdiamonds said:
Im really confused guys. The lawyer told me when the time came to renew my PR card two years down the line , he said they will see I entered as a visitor two years ago and that I misrepresented myself at the port of entry as a visitor , as it is illegal for a PR to enter as a visitor. He wasn't talking about when entering the country , he was talking about 2 years down the line.

I looked up the lawyer and he's been one of the best in canada and also was extremely expensive , I chose one of the best because I wanted to be absolutely clear , and now it seems that this isn't the case ?
Let's get one thing out of the way first. Misrepresentation, if proven, is grounds for barring you from Canada. In other words, if you lie, and they catch you, they have the option for that punishment.

(Puts on pragmatic hat).

When you cross the border, they may or may not ask any particular question.

If they ask what your status is in Canada, and you indicate that you are a visitor, that would be a lie.
If they ask what your purpose is in Canada, and you answer that you are visiting, that could be truthful, even if you are a Permanent Resident. I've crossed the border to Canada for a couple days, and done so for the purpose of travel, for vacation, to get the mail, etc.

When you apply for a PR card, they have the option of reviewing notes. If those notes said "traveler indicated he was a visitor staying only for a couple of days", then that would be indicitive of misrepresentation. For that to happen, you would almost certainly have to end up grilled in secondary (where they make more notes).

In general, if your docs look good and the answers aren't sketchy, primary doesn't make any notes. At all. Particularly if they are busy. As such, they have no clue what questions were asked, nor answers given after the fact.

Your lawyer is correct - you should not lie. Additionally, you should not forge things. That's illegal, too. You are not, however, obligated to divulge information that they do not request, and that you are not required by statute to provide.

If you were just visiting, and had return tickets, or hotel reservations for a few days, you could honestly tell them that. Should something happen that later changes your mind, that would not be illegal.

On the other hand, if you entered with the intent to stay permanently, but you stated your purpose was visiting, that would be misrepresentation, and that would be illegal. They do sometimes search phones, laptops, etc., and if they found any information that you were withholding things, that would be misrepresentation.

Permanent Residents are not required to have, nor to present, Permanent Resident cards. They are presumptive proof of status, but not required. A permanent resident may legally present a passport from a country with visa-free status as proof of identity. If asked, you would be legally obligated to answer that you were a permanent resident. If they don't ask that particular question, instead asking why you are coming, or how long you intend to stay, then you would need to answer their question honestly.

If they ask, you might be subject to a hearing, and you might lose your status. Sometimes they ask. Usually, they don't ask me. It varies - I've even been waved through without them looking at my ID, or sometimes just looking at it.
 

princessofdiamonds

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Jan 6, 2016
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But surely, if I get into the line for 'visitors' not the permanent residency line, my misrepresentation starts there?

Sorry I'm trying to be clear as possible.

I visit back and forth all the time - around 120 days so far this year. I showed my PR card until around 2010 - I'd always get taken into secondary and they'd check my bag, and my intent at the time was as a visitor. No report was made about my status or anything. My actual card expired in 2013. When I got my new passport in 2010, I never showed my PR card at all (As there was no evidence in my new passport with old student visas etc) I also just assumed that once I left the country permanently and had no intention (at the time) to come back as a PR , my PR was automatically gone.

I now am in the situation where I 'MAY' stay. I want to come out for a holiday for around 2 weeks and may decide to stay longer (6 months visitor isnt it?) I may also decide to stay permanently. My stuff will remain in the UK, so I'm not bringing all my belongings with me. I just spoke to the lawyer, as previously in the year I had applied for an ETA, but it was rejected as I held PR status. I was not aware of this at the time. So now, the option is that I could stay at some point if I could get back in the country. Again - not 100% sure on the staying part.

The lawyer has told me, that no matter the situation, I will definately face misrepresentation 2 years down the line. Obviously, his way of getting in across the border is risky,as I will be showing my expired 2013 PR card. My option as coming as visitor would be better for me, depending on the questions they ask me.

I feel that I'm getting myself in a mess, because I'm not sure the best route to take. I want to be honest if I cross through Buffalo and present my self as a PR , so I have the option of staying (and I'm not misrepresenting anything) , however I'm terrified they'll revoke my status.

Also - to clarify - When I cross the border from Buffalo (If i decide to go this route) , I will be travelling with my Mom and Dad (Who are both now canadian citizens, in their ontario plated car). They will be saying that they were picking me up from the airport. I am going to declare that I have been out of the country for 9 weeks (and will have a boarding pass to prove this) and will say that I'm planning on renewing my card when I'm back in Canada.
 

Rob_TO

VIP Member
Nov 7, 2012
11,427
1,551
Toronto
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
Seoul, Korea
App. Filed.......
13-07-2012
AOR Received.
18-08-2012
File Transfer...
21-08-2012
Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
princessofdiamonds said:
The lawyer has told me, that no matter the situation, I will definately face misrepresentation 2 years down the line.
Ask him if he's ever seen evidence of this actually happening in the history of Canadian immigration. My guess would be no.

Again if you apply to IRCC to renew your PR card and you meet the RO at that time, whether you entered Canada as a visitor or by declaring your PR status 2 years ago would be completely irrelevant to them. But as many have mentioned, you should not attempt to lie or deceive CBSA since they can make life difficult for you. If CBSA lets you in with no problems, that is all that matters.