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Applicant from PhD program after 5 Nov, 2011 connect here to get status

hamed_hamed_hamed

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Jan 20, 2013
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GeographyPhD said:
Hi Forum!

I was recently rejected for PR under the PhD stream. Looks like many others had the same problem. Their reason was that one of my reference letters did not state the main duties performed and hence making my work experience not count for the continuous full time employment.

I then appealed, even there is NOT a formal appeal process. My grounds was that I did include the main duties performed in the letter and that it must have been misplaced. I just received a reply rejecting my appeal on the grounds that there is no appeal and that I did not include the letter.

Question 1: Does CIC have a system for 100% making sure that they do not misplace documents? I am 99.99% sure that I included the letter in question and that it sufficiently described the duties of said employment. In their response they said:

"Your application for Permanent Residence in Canada was considered on its substantive merits according to the applicable section of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and was refused. Any different or new information that you have submitted cannot be taken into consideration."
And
"NOTE: The letter you submitted from University XX you submitted with your response was not part of your original application and thus cannot be used in a re-assessment."

I wonder if it is worth persevering or whether I should just (sic) make a new application?

Question 2: continuous employment (full/part time) I think is my main weakness. In a related forum asbereth notes that 1,950 hours of continuous work experience is required. I am a 4th year PhD student and have been continuously employed as an RA and a TA through my 2year MA and the frist 3 years of my MA. These have been smaller contracts: 64hrs, the odd 80 and 120 hours, but I am still not sure that this amounts to 1950 hours. Could anyone provide clarification, please? Is there anyone in the same situation who has been granted PR and yet only did small - albeit continous - RA/TA work.

Finally: I know that I don't have to re-do the English test (thankfully, especially because its my first language), but do I have to send original documents, or signed documents again, even though they have a copy of them already?

Thanks so much. Any help is much appreciated.
This happened to many applicants here including me. Last year, they used to not accept updated letters and only count the letters sent with original application. However, this year I have seen some cases that CIC accepted updated letters. It's not very clear yet to me but if they replied and said they do not accept, then your chances are very low, though this is only my opinion.

Regarding any appeal system, there is nothing like that in CIC. I dragged my case until 3-4 months after they rejected me. I tried to make them accept my updated letters. They never said they do no accept updated letters, but they didn't either accepted my updated letters with the excuse that the new letters do not represent sufficient duties.

I ended up re-applying.
 

beh467

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hamed_hamed_hamed said:
This happened to many applicants here including me. Last year, they used to not accept updated letters and only count the letters sent with original application. However, this year I have seen some cases that CIC accepted updated letters. It's not very clear yet to me but if they replied and said they do not accept, then your chances are very low, though this is only my opinion.

Regarding any appeal system, there is nothing like that in CIC. I dragged my case until 3-4 months after they rejected me. I tried to make them accept my updated letters. They never said they do no accept updated letters, but they didn't either accepted my updated letters with the excuse that the new letters do not represent sufficient duties.

I ended up re-applying.
I do not remember any case that they have not accepted to consider the updated letter.
They consider everything they receive before the final assessment.

For GeogrpahyPhD s case, I think he/she has attached a work experience letter with the appeal email. That is why they have replied with this note:

GeographyPhD said:
Hi Forum!

"NOTE: The letter you submitted from University XX you submitted with your response was not part of your original application and thus cannot be used in a re-assessment."

If you have updated the work experience letter before final assessment and have a proof for that, you can send the proof to them.
 

S_Govind

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GeographyPhD said:
Hi Forum!

I was recently rejected for PR under the PhD stream. Looks like many others had the same problem. Their reason was that one of my reference letters did not state the main duties performed and hence making my work experience not count for the continuous full time employment.
Would you mind sharing your timeline with the forum?
 

hamed_hamed_hamed

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beh467 said:
I do not remember any case that they have not accepted to consider the updated letter.
They consider everything they receive before the final assessment.

For GeogrpahyPhD s case, I think he/she has attached a work experience letter with the appeal email. That is why they have replied with this note:


If you have updated the work experience letter before final assessment and have a proof for that, you can send the proof to them.
I remember many cases that they did not accept (with the excuse that it is not sent with original application). People got rejected only because they did not have job offer at the time of sending their applications, while they had the offer later before the final assessment.

Previously it mattered to them when the applicant has the qualification/requirement. I am not sure how they deal with it recently. Yet for some other cases recently they accepted updated letters. They have not applied a firm policy in this matter since the beginning.

That's why I still do not refuse trying to send new letters. But I would suggest do both things. Prepare a new application just in case from now.
 

aidina

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Nov 21, 2012
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hamed_hamed_hamed said:
This happened to many applicants here including me. Last year, they used to not accept updated letters and only count the letters sent with original application. However, this year I have seen some cases that CIC accepted updated letters. It's not very clear yet to me but if they replied and said they do not accept, then your chances are very low, though this is only my opinion.

Regarding any appeal system, there is nothing like that in CIC. I dragged my case until 3-4 months after they rejected me. I tried to make them accept my updated letters. They never said they do no accept updated letters, but they didn't either accepted my updated letters with the excuse that the new letters do not represent sufficient duties.

I ended up re-applying.
CIC openly accepts updated letters provided they were sent before the final assessment. However, those letters must meet all the requirements including they must contain the main duties and the lead statement of the NOC code. You were absent from the forum for several months, and are totally unaware. We have seen lots of people in this forum whose updated letters were accepted by CIC.
 

hamed_hamed_hamed

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aidina said:
CIC openly accepts updated letters provided they were sent before the final assessment. However, those letters must meet all the requirements including they must contain the main duties and the lead statement of the NOC code. You were absent from the forum for several months, and are totally unaware. We have seen lots of people in this forum whose updated letters were accepted by CIC.
If you noticed, I already said it here: "I am not sure how they deal with it recently. Yet for some other cases recently they accepted updated letters." and here: "However, this year I have seen some cases that CIC accepted updated letters.". "That's why I still do not refuse trying to send new letters."

So what's wrong in what I said? or as you say, Am I "totally unaware"?
 

beh467

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May 2, 2012
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hamed_hamed_hamed said:
If you noticed, I already said it here: "Yet for some other cases recently they accepted updated letters." and here: "However, this year I have seen some cases that CIC accepted updated letters.".

So what's wrong in what I said? or as you say, Am I "totally unaware"?
The wrong thing is that you are saying that there were some cases that they did not consider the updated letter while there has been no case like this. Of course, the updated letter must include the lead statement as well as substantial number of main duties. Otherwise, they will not accept the updated letter.
 

hamed_hamed_hamed

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beh467 said:
The wrong thing is that you are saying that there were some cases that they did not consider the updated letter while there has been no case like this. Of course, the updated letter must include the lead statement as well as substantial number of main duties. Otherwise, they will not accept the updated letter.
I said that about the last year. Please read what I said. And I said I am not sure what they do recently.

Please read what I said.
 

beh467

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hamed_hamed_hamed said:
I said that about the last year. Please read what I said. And I said I am not sure what they do recently.

Please read what I said.
Even from the last year, I don't remember anyone Hamed.
It is 18 months that I am following this forum and I don't remember any case that they have refused to consider the updated letter.
 

NeverGiveUp

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Mar 26, 2013
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beh467 said:
Even from the last year, I don't remember anyone Hamed.
It is 18 months that I am following this forum and I don't remember any case that they have refused to consider the updated letter.
True that. Me neither, I don't remember any case.
 

hamed_hamed_hamed

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beh467 said:
Even from the last year, I don't remember anyone Hamed.
It is 18 months that I am following this forum and I don't remember any case that they have refused to consider the updated letter.
I clearly remember there was a debate here on whether CIC accepts updated letters or not. Again they may have changed their policy recently, and I encourage everyone to send updated letters.

But if you notice in the CIC letter to him/her, they already said that they can not assess it because it was not part of the original application (see below). Remember he/she sent the letter to update an original letter.

"NOTE: The letter you submitted from University XX you submitted with your response was not part of your original application and thus cannot be used in a re-assessment."

I would be happy too if CIC accepts such letters, but the above response makes it fuzzy. I hope they accept as I am an applicant like others.
 

beh467

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May 2, 2012
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hamed_hamed_hamed said:
I clearly remember there was a debate here on whether CIC accepts updated letters or not. Again they may have changed their policy recently, and I encourage everyone to send updated letters.

But if you notice in the CIC letter to him/her, they already said that they can not assess it because it was not part of the original application (see below). Remember he/she sent the letter to update an original letter.

"NOTE: The letter you submitted from University XX you submitted with your response was not part of your original application and thus cannot be used in a re-assessment."

I would be happy too if CIC accepts such letters, but the above response makes it fuzzy. I hope they accept as I am an applicant like others.
For GeogrpahyPhD s case, I think he/she has attached a work experience letter with the appeal email, which at this time the final assessment has been already done. That is why they have replied with this note:

Quote from: GeographyPhD on September 29, 2013, 11:31:22 am

"NOTE: The letter you submitted from University XX you submitted with your response was not part of your original application and thus cannot be used in a re-assessment."

GeographyPhD can make this clear.
 

aidina

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Nov 21, 2012
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hamed_hamed_hamed said:
I clearly remember there was a debate here on whether CIC accepts updated letters or not. Again they may have changed their policy recently, and I encourage everyone to send updated letters.

But if you notice in the CIC letter to him/her, they already said that they can not assess it because it was not part of the original application (see below). Remember he/she sent the letter to update an original letter.

"NOTE: The letter you submitted from University XX you submitted with your response was not part of your original application and thus cannot be used in a re-assessment."

I would be happy too if CIC accepts such letters, but the above response makes it fuzzy. I hope they accept as I am an applicant like others.

My updated letter was accepted just a few days after you were rejected. As we both remember, the officer who rejected you said he considered your 2nd letter, however, that letter never met his expectations. I have been in this forum forever without any absence, and remember everything as I follow the forum every single hour. All the updated letters are considered if they reach the Ottawa before the final assessment (and this is clearly indicated in the OP6), however, they might be rejected if they do not have the required information as yours. Remember, our wrong information can easily put people in trouble, so we need to be careful about our comments.

Once more, updated letters are considered if they reach Ottawa by the final assessment date, however, they must contain the main duties and the lead statement as the selected NOC code to be accepted.

Of course, there have been changes in the regulations since May 4th, 2013, and new applicants must be aware of those changes. You should study the latest version of the regulations to see if they still consider updated letters, but they were used to accept them at least until May 3rd, 2013.
 

GeographyPhD

Full Member
Sep 29, 2013
23
2
Thanks for your help so far. Let me clarify a couple things and copy both letters I received from CIC, the first rejecting my application and the second refusing to consider my appeal - see below.

My worry is about work experience. 37.5 hours/week (or equivalent part time) is required: is this multiplied by 52 weeks (i.e. = 1950). Would I have to demonstrate hour-by-hour work contracts? Thats still a lot of work hours even though I have worked continuously for 5 years -- often the contracts are so small. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Quoting letter 1:
The Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism issued instructions which were published in the Canada Gazette on November 5, 2011. These instructions specify that applications from international students who are currently enrolled in a PhD program, or foreign nationals who have completed a PhD program, in a recognized educational institution located in Canada and that are accompanied by the results of the principal applicant’s English or French language proficiency assessment are eligible to be processed in the Federal Skilled Worker class.

I have now completed the assessment of your application for a permanent resident visa as a skilled worker. I have determined that you do not meet the requirements for immigration to Canada.

While the Phd program meets one of the requirements of the Ministerial Instructions now in effect, to be eligible for processing, your work experience must still meet the minimal requirements as defined in subsection 75(2) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations that states that a foreign national is a skilled worker if:

a) within the ten years preceding the date of their application for a permanent resident visa, they, have at least one year of continuous full-time (37.5 hours/week) employment experience as described in subsection 80(7), or the equivalent in continuous part-time employment in one or more occupations, other than a restricted occupation, that are listed in Skill Type 0 Management Occupations or Skill Levels A or B of the National Occupational Classification matrix;

b) during that period of employment they performed the actions described in the lead statement for the occupation as set out in the occupational descriptions of the National Occupational Classification; and

c) during that period of employment they performed a substantial number of the main duties of the occupation as set out in the occupational descriptions of the National Occupational Classification, including all of the essential duties.

I am not satisfied that you meet part B & C of these requirements for the following reasons:

All supporting documentation provided regarding your work experience history was taken into consideration. After reviewing the employment letters from The University of British Columbia, they do not indicate main duties of your work experiences. Therefore, evidence of part B & C cannot be determined.

NOTE: Any work experience listed on schedule 3 of your application that was not supported by employment documentation indicating your main duties and period of employment in that occupation was not accessed.

Subsection 75(3) states that if a foreign national fails to meet these requirements, the application shall be refused and no further assessment is required. I am not satisfied that you meet these requirements.

Subsection 11(1) of the Act states that a foreign national must, before entering Canada, apply to an officer for a visa or for any other document required by the regulations. The visa or document may be issued if, following an examination, the officer is satisfied that the foreign national is not inadmissible and meets the requirements of this Act. Subsection 2(2) specifies that unless otherwise indicated, references in the Act include regulations made under it.

Following an examination of your application, I am not satisfied that you meet the requirements of the Act and the regulations for the reasons explained above. I am therefore refusing your application.

END QUOTE

And the second letter:

This refers to your recent correspondence received at our office requesting reconsideration for your Application for Permanent Residence in Canada under the Federal Skilled Worker Class.

Your application for Permanent Residence in Canada was considered on its substantive merits according to the applicable section of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and was refused. Any different or new information that you have submitted cannot be taken into consideration. A letter explaining the reasons for this final refusal decision was sent to you on 2 February 2013, thereby fully concluding your application.

While your Arranged Employment meets one of the requirements of the Ministerial Instructions now in effect, to be eligible for processing, your work experience must still meet the minimum requirement as defined in IRPA regulations of: at least one year, continuous and paid (full-time or the equivalent in part time) work experience in a level O, A or B occupation on the Canadian National Occupations Classifications list ( NOC ) in the 10 years preceding your application. In reviewing your application, I am not satisfied that your work experience meets these requirements. Subsection 75(3) states that if a foreign national fails to meet these requirements, the application shall be refused and no further assessment is required.

Should you have different or additional information, you may wish to submit a new application. NOTE: The letter you submitted from University [XX] you submitted with your response was not part of your original application and thus cannot be used in a re-assessment. You should understand, however, that a new application would require submission of new processing fees and that any such application would be assessed according to the criteria in effect at that time. As a result, no assurance of success can be offered.
 

GeographyPhD

Full Member
Sep 29, 2013
23
2
Also, I should say that they rejected my application before they I re-sent the reference letter but my point is that I'm 99.99% sure that I had sent the letter in the first place. I was not so much asking for re-consideration (because I know decisions are final and no extra material will be considered and no re-assessment will be done), but that my application be considered fairly because as I say, I'm almost certain that I included the letter in the original.

One other question: Do all copies of documents have to be officially signed as true linkesses by a notary/jp? I can understand a passport and birth certificate, but the application also requires copies of degree certificates. Also, do the reference letters have to be signed by a notary/jp?

Thanks.