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What's allowed with dual intent?

MJSPARV

Hero Member
Sep 17, 2020
405
251
Since I wrote (I think) this presumptive citizen term - a strong warning that, you know, don't take legal advice from a random guy on the internet, and I doubt this term is the proper legal term, I just used it in general common English language sense.

My point overall is that seems very unlikely that CBSA would not let your citizen-husband's daughter in the country since you have evidence applied for citizenship, and about as unlikely they would attempt to claim her time in Canada is limited to usual visitor time limits. (With the background of Canadian citizenship law that she was born a citizen or with a claim to citizenship - but no final determination/confirmation of that ... which is all I meant by presumptive, and it's my term, I don't know if that is correct legal term).

What Canadians who travel by air (eg from rest of world) for children in this situation generally need to do is apply for a passport at same time as submitting the citizenship application. And they're granted 'temporary' passports (not sure of the term here either) - usually good for two years? - to cover the time in which the finalization of citizenship should be completed. Similarly, presumptive - in the sense that they wouldn't issue it if the claim to citizenship wasn't clear and pretty obvious, and it's just pending the final confirmation. (And I assume that hypothetically the claim to citizenship could be denied...). But usually eventually the citizenship is confirmed and a new passport applied for/issued.

So it would by far (I think) be preferable to apply for a passport for your daughter on an urgent basis, I just don't know how that works for your timing. And probably it won't make much difference because experience usually seems to be that at the border the CBSA agents don't deny entrance to the children in cases like yours.

And a side note: I don't know how this will work for your child for other important stuff in the short term - notably health care. And I won't even attempt to guess at that because depends on province, etc. I'm pretty sure that all provinces would accept these 'temporary' passports issued as evidence of citizenship - and no idea how they would handle it without them - and then there are waiting periods (currently waived in some provinces), etc. So may still be a good idea to apply for passport for the child.

Don't worry, I assume that knowledgeable as you are you aren't a lawyer, and don't play one on TV ;) Thanks as always for all the clarification.

Interestingly, I was under the impression we couldn't apply for the passport until the citizenship certificate came through, because she's eligible for a passport of another country (and actually has a US passport). Hmm, will have to go looking for this again to see why I thought that - there is a lot of water under the bridge since we submitted it in July.

Re health insurance - according to the province so long as she and I have valid visitor records, we are eligible for provincial healthcare.
 
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sgp1986

Star Member
Jan 2, 2020
170
71
I am looking more and more into going up there early. I'm having too many issues with my current workplace, and I just need to get out of here and go and be with my wife. I can't try for dual intent because we will need to come back down later this summer, which if I'm correct will start that process over? So I will just be a visitor for a month or two at a time until my PR is approved
 

MJSPARV

Hero Member
Sep 17, 2020
405
251
Thank you so much for the info! I'll hope for the best for you, if it wouldn't be too much trouble would you be able to post an update after you cross?
@sgp1986 Here is the update you asked for! Short version - crossing the border went incredibly smoothly, I was granted a 12 month visitor visa (didn't ask for it, they asked me if I wanted one), and we're busy answering the gajillion calls we get when there are three family members in self-isolation and both the province and the federal government are checking in on you.

To give more details:

- We got a plane ticket back to the US for the baby and I, we left belongings with my parents in the US, and had a copy of bank accounts etc in the US to prove ties to US if needed. The car my husband was importing and all the belongings that weren't obviously mine or the baby's (i.e. women's/baby clothes, her toys) were listed as goods accompanying him only, not me. We made sure the lease only lists him etc and had a copy of that and our correspondence with the province about their covid entry registry that showed him listed as moving to the province, and the baby and I as visiting him as additional documentation that she and I intend to leave as required for visitors.

- The actual crossing started out a bit rough when the officer at the hut (I don't know if that is the right name for it or not - the first officer we talked to) told us the 1 year old needed a covid test result too, and when we said it says under 5's don't need a test she went "Well I've never heard that." and then tried to tell us that we'd have to do all the paperwork for my husband importing his car and his belongings as a returning citizen outside in the rain. Fortunately, we got shunted to a better informed and much more helpful and friendly officer in secondary who confirmed that the baby didn't need a covid test result to enter Canada and we could do the paperwork inside.

- In terms of allowing me to enter, I was upfront with both the agents that I have a PR application but am entering as a visitor (basically said "Because my PR application is in process and the baby's citizenship certificate is in process we are coming to help my husband move in, and visit him before leaving in October." The officer we interacted with the most (the helpful friendly one, thankfully), asked me a bit about the application (what stage it is at) and I asked for a 6 month visitor record or at least a stamp in the passport, and he said that he would have to check what IRCC said the application status was to give me a visitor record, but that he could definitely give a stamp. He then later asked if I was planning to return to the US in October because I had to go back for some reason there or just because I knew I couldn't stay past 6 months, told him it was the latter, and he asked if I would like a 12 month visitor record instead. I happily and gratefully agreed. :)

- @armoured had said they may treat the baby's entry differently than mine because she is the child of a citizen, and in fact, she entered Canada as a citizen because she had her birth certificate listing her Canadian parent, her US passport, and her Canadian parent's Canadian passport was present as well. (The officer mentioned that in the future she could do so again, even with just a photocopy of my husband's passport).

- Although we didn't need all the back up documents we had I am glad we had them because while we ultimately had a very helpful officer who made it all go very smoothly and didn't bat an eye at the situation, I suspect that if the first officer had been the one we worked with for all that it would have been much rougher. Better to be over prepared than under prepared!

- I am curious how much CBSA can see of what IRCC has because they clearly did go and check something and when I was given the 12 month record he said "This lets you stay for 12 months but everything looks really good with IRCC and like it should be wrapped up before then, but you can always extend if for some reason it gets delayed." Definitely not getting my hopes up that it will be fast, but it was an interesting comment.

@sgp1986 hope this was helpful to you!
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,888
8,070
[He then later asked if I was planning to return to the US in October because I had to go back for some reason there or just because I knew I couldn't stay past 6 months, told him it was the latter, and he asked if I would like a 12 month visitor record instead. I happily and gratefully agreed. :)
This reminds me of the old line about bankers - when you don't want to borrow money and don't need it, they'll open a credit line for you right away, but when you actually need a loan, forget it. I.e. saying you didn't need the 12 months is probably why it all worked out. )))

Congrats, glad it went so smoothly (and tks for sharing the actual experience).
 

sgp1986

Star Member
Jan 2, 2020
170
71
@sgp1986 Here is the update you asked for! Short version - crossing the border went incredibly smoothly, I was granted a 12 month visitor visa (didn't ask for it, they asked me if I wanted one), and we're busy answering the gajillion calls we get when there are three family members in self-isolation and both the province and the federal government are checking in on you.

To give more details:

- We got a plane ticket back to the US for the baby and I, we left belongings with my parents in the US, and had a copy of bank accounts etc in the US to prove ties to US if needed. The car my husband was importing and all the belongings that weren't obviously mine or the baby's (i.e. women's/baby clothes, her toys) were listed as goods accompanying him only, not me. We made sure the lease only lists him etc and had a copy of that and our correspondence with the province about their covid entry registry that showed him listed as moving to the province, and the baby and I as visiting him as additional documentation that she and I intend to leave as required for visitors.

- The actual crossing started out a bit rough when the officer at the hut (I don't know if that is the right name for it or not - the first officer we talked to) told us the 1 year old needed a covid test result too, and when we said it says under 5's don't need a test she went "Well I've never heard that." and then tried to tell us that we'd have to do all the paperwork for my husband importing his car and his belongings as a returning citizen outside in the rain. Fortunately, we got shunted to a better informed and much more helpful and friendly officer in secondary who confirmed that the baby didn't need a covid test result to enter Canada and we could do the paperwork inside.

- In terms of allowing me to enter, I was upfront with both the agents that I have a PR application but am entering as a visitor (basically said "Because my PR application is in process and the baby's citizenship certificate is in process we are coming to help my husband move in, and visit him before leaving in October." The officer we interacted with the most (the helpful friendly one, thankfully), asked me a bit about the application (what stage it is at) and I asked for a 6 month visitor record or at least a stamp in the passport, and he said that he would have to check what IRCC said the application status was to give me a visitor record, but that he could definitely give a stamp. He then later asked if I was planning to return to the US in October because I had to go back for some reason there or just because I knew I couldn't stay past 6 months, told him it was the latter, and he asked if I would like a 12 month visitor record instead. I happily and gratefully agreed. :)

- @armoured had said they may treat the baby's entry differently than mine because she is the child of a citizen, and in fact, she entered Canada as a citizen because she had her birth certificate listing her Canadian parent, her US passport, and her Canadian parent's Canadian passport was present as well. (The officer mentioned that in the future she could do so again, even with just a photocopy of my husband's passport).

- Although we didn't need all the back up documents we had I am glad we had them because while we ultimately had a very helpful officer who made it all go very smoothly and didn't bat an eye at the situation, I suspect that if the first officer had been the one we worked with for all that it would have been much rougher. Better to be over prepared than under prepared!

- I am curious how much CBSA can see of what IRCC has because they clearly did go and check something and when I was given the 12 month record he said "This lets you stay for 12 months but everything looks really good with IRCC and like it should be wrapped up before then, but you can always extend if for some reason it gets delayed." Definitely not getting my hopes up that it will be fast, but it was an interesting comment.

@sgp1986 hope this was helpful to you!
Thank you so much for the update! I'm glad it went so smoothly for you! Fingers crossed for the same thing for us when we try!