tough out there

[on-hold]

I don't want to start another thread arguing about the actual reasons why it's tough for immigrants to get work, or the Canadian experience stuff -- this is some data (from the States, which tends to be similar to Canada in a lot of respects), about how tough it is for everyone. Take a look at it, it's showing how recent college graduates in the past, and today, are doing:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/01/job-market-college-grads-tougher-ever


Just a bit of perspective -- locals are having their problems too, with local degrees and networks.

 

[emamabd]

I don't want to start another thread arguing about the actual reasons why it's tough for immigrants to get work, or the Canadian experience stuff -- this is some data (from the States, which tends to be similar to Canada in a lot of respects), about how tough it is for everyone. Take a look at it, it's showing how recent college graduates in the past, and today, are doing:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/01/job-market-college-grads-tougher-ever


Just a bit of perspective -- locals are having their problems too, with local degrees and networks.

well those fresh grads regardless of what college they came from - they would need lots of hands-on and on-job training in order to start being productive (probably 6 months at least) ...and will remain in the learning curve for a few years until they manage to build solid competence and become a real organization asset.

Its unfair to compare those fresh canadian/american guys with zero working experience - to skilled immigrants with 5+/ or 8+ professional experience which can be productive starting day 1, and can even add a lot (from their past experiences) to the organization(s) which they work for.

To me it does not justify why new immigrants should struggle to get jobs and have their work experiences acknowledged.

The university degree ...and the "country" which granted that degree maybe relevant when you want to hire a person with 0-2 years experience...but once you are seeking to hire an experienced professional with 8+ years - the university "name" and "country" becomes less relevant/important - and much more weight is given to the quality of the "work experience" itself and its relevance to the vacant position.

 

[on-hold]

Sorry, but no. The fact that the job market for college graduates is poor has direct implications for the job market for college graduates with experience. These are closely related categories -- and, one naturally turns into another. If the job market for college-educated professionals was good, then there would be 'churn' in that area, that would improve the job market for college graduates. It isn't, and there aren't a lot of openings for professionals either, and this is aggravated when they have international experience and degrees that are harder to evaluate for quality.

Finally, do you really think it's likely that the Canadian job market has a bimodal distribution in which educated Canadians find themselves increasingly unemployable, but this doesn't affect professional immigrants?

 

[mrbeachman]

Just a bit of perspective -- locals are having their problems too, with local degrees and networks.

That is 100% correct and I have mentioned this fact here many times.

A lot of graduates are working shoppers, Wal-Mart, mac for years. It has become their career. Soon enough these will be jobs in demand if Ontario goes ahead with their $14 minimum wage.

 

[emamabd]

Sorry, but no. The fact that the job market for college graduates is poor has direct implications for the job market for college graduates with experience. These are closely related categories -- and, one naturally turns into another. If the job market for college-educated professionals was good, then there would be 'churn' in that area, that would improve the job market for college graduates. It isn't, and there aren't a lot of openings for professionals either, and this is aggravated when they have international experience and degrees that are harder to evaluate for quality.

Finally, do you really think it's likely that the Canadian job market has a bimodal distribution in which educated Canadians find themselves increasingly unemployable, but this doesn't affect professional immigrants?

What i'm saying is that - its normal for a fresh college/university graduate to face difficulties in getting employed, because he lacks the skill and experience...and is nearly useless for employers at least for the first 6 months.

But, its not normal/logical for internationally experienced professionals to experience the same struggle as those juniors...because they are able to add value immediately once employed.

That is in "general" ...what i said above is not specific to canada, canada has a defect, and thats why the above theory which i mentioned is most probably not working, but in most other countries thats how things work.

 

[itstime]

But, its not normal/logical for internationally experienced professionals to experience the same struggle as those juniors...because they are able to add value immediately once employed.

That is in "general" ...what i said above is not specific to canada, canada has a defect, and thats why the above theory which i mentioned is most probably not working, but in most other countries thats how things work.

Just look at europe and you fill find that most taxi drivers or pizzeria owners are doctors, proffessionals, people with masters and PhDs. Heart surgeons only allowed to practice as GPs because their credentials and/or experience is not recognised, no matter how good they are. And so on.

You come to a new country you have to start at the bottom, unless you are headhunted in to an organisation and that is rare.

The first thing to do when moving to Canada is LEARN THE LANGUAGE!

A friend of mine staff for Cisco. It's easy for him to find competent in or outside Canada. The problem he has is finding competent staff who can speak read and write english properly.

 

[on-hold]

It's perfectly normal for mid-career professionals to have trouble finding a new job -- there are fewer mid-career professional jobs than there are entry-level professional jobs. When you combine this with the fact that many immigrants have no connections locally and are competing with a large number of overqualified, underemployed Canadians, it's obvious to most people that this would be a difficult job market for them. When you include the fact that most new immigrants are unemployed, and HR departments hate hiring people without jobs, it gets even worse. Add in language and cultural adjustments, degrees that are hard to evaluate, and experience that might not be 100% relevant, and it gets even worse.

My original post simply points out that in a country where educated locals have trouble getting a job, it's tougher for outsiders. There is no country in the world where the reverse is true, and it doesn't matter how much 'value' the immigrant is going to add.

 

[emamabd]

My original post simply points out that in a country where educated locals have trouble getting a job, it's tougher for outsiders. There is no country in the world where the reverse is true, and it doesn't matter how much 'value' the immigrant is going to add.

I still think that both are competing for a parallel job market...fresh grads for entry level, and experienced immigrants for mid-level.

With regards to Canadian graduates unable to enter into their fields - i would say thats a sign of a bad economy/saturated job market.

Unless a company is expanding there wouldn't be a need for hiring freshers...because in this case you only be hiring in case someone leaves the company (which would probably mean the replacement has to be experienced as well).

Surely in that case both immigrants and fresh grads will be impacted...but i think that fresh grads are more vulnerable as they didn't get a chance to gain the skill to compete in this fierce saturated market.

Anyway...the fact is that canada is tough for both , so i guess we just have to deal with it

 

[itstime]

My original post simply points out that in a country where educated locals have trouble getting a job, it's tougher for outsiders. There is no country in the world where the reverse is true, and it doesn't matter how much 'value' the immigrant is going to add.

WORD!

 

[newtone]

I am not entirely sure about what you are saying but here is another side of the story

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/04/24/land-of-misfortune/

 

[emamabd]

I am not entirely sure about what you are saying but here is another side of the story

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/04/24/land-of-misfortune/

Interesting article, thanks for sharing newtone - i think you are now living in the US, right? Is the job market over there much better as the article says?

The below changes to the Immigration system are new to me as well, i wonder which employer will be willing to wait one year to hire someone from abroad.

"The most dramatic changes come next year, when Kenney says the government will scrap the decades-old points system in favour of something he calls an “expression of interest,” based on the skilled-worker systems in Australia and New Zealand. Instead of receiving points based on a mix of language skills, education and work experience, prospective immigrants will need to have their language skills and credentials assessed by an independent third-party service. If they pass, they’ll be put into a pool of people approved for immigration. Employers can browse lists of workers, and if they find an employee they want to hire they can apply to bring them over within a year, rather than the typical five-year wait list for the skilled-worker program. “It’s like a dating service to connect employers with prospective immigrants,” says Kenney".

 

[newtone]

Yes I do live in the US and the job market here is much better. Unlike Canada, I never have to stress out about loosing my job because there are always opportunities available. Lets not forget US is self sustaining ... PERIOD. They produce everything and are able to take their companies global. In Canada I was always in the fear of loosing my job and not finding another, I was also unemployed for some time. Sick and tired of racism, discriminatory hiring practices, bureaucratic non sense, uneducated work force, lack of training and development due corporations not having enough money. Personally I think Canada is one big mafia nation, otherwise how are people surviving with such inflated costs on a daily basis? In US the opportunities far outlast supplies so much so that they have to bring people on work permits. I dont stress about loosing my job anymore cause I know I can get another one. I live in Houston and life here is comparable to Toronto (except the weather ofcourse), but with cheaper auto and home insurance, cheaper food, cheap real estate, cheap cars. So at the end of the month I have more than enough for my family and even go on vacation to transatlantic destinations. So I was out of the Canadian nightmare and into the American dream.

So just to give you an idea, I have not changed my eating habit, the model of my car nor my lifestyle or the number of family members.

Toronto
Nissan Maxima (2010) insurance: $350/month
Cost of home in Toronto: $2000sqft $550,000 (mortgage $2400, including hydro, electricity, taxes)
Cost of groceries: $600/month
Eating out: $500/month
Clothing, entertainment & misc: $400/month

Houston
Nissan Maxima (2010) insurance: $50/month
Cost of home in Houston: $4000sqft $300,000 (mortgage $1500 including hydro, electricity, taxes)
Cost of groceries: $400/month
Eating out: $300/month
Clothing, entertainment & misc: $200/month

If realistically the money I am saving is: $1750/month

 

[on-hold]

Newtone, I don't disagree with anything in your post, but I do want to give my perspective on it. First -- and this is a guess -- I understand that you moved to Texas in 2010? If that's the case, I'm assuming that you were in Canada for the 3 or 4 years before that. It's worth pointing out that these were years of the global slump and the U.S. housing crash, and that you would have moved right at the time when housing prices were still depressed AND the Texas job market was improving. In other words, you went there at the right time; someone who moved to Alberta in 2000 could say the same thing.

Anyway, my thoughts:

- I'm not sure what you mean by self-sustaining, or why it's important. There are global Canadian companies, they just tend not to be famous because they're in things like mining.
- Unemployment in the States is about the same as Canada right now; in 2010, it was higher. I don't understand why you would have been confident of finding another job in Houston but not in Canada, unless the local unemployment rate in Texas was lower. People in Alberta feel this way as well, it might be a mistake to extrapolate from Toronto to all of Canada.
- Canada fits the model of a small nation that is economically successful and expensive to live in, with a robust safety net; I don't see how this makes it a mafia nation. Norway is perhaps the most extreme example of this type, it's one pattern of development. The U.S. is another, where many things are cheaper but the safety net is weaker, and people pay more out-of-pocket.

Basically, everything you wrote I could write as well, but it would be describing my move from Victoria, B.C. to Edmonton, Alberta (obviously, a few details are different). That doesn't mean that either of us are right or wrong, but just that given the diversity of opportunities in both Canada and the U.S., it would be normal for some people to find success in one model, and others in the other.

 

[emamabd]

Yes I do live in the US and the job market here is much better. Unlike Canada, I never have to stress out about loosing my job because there are always opportunities available. Lets not forget US is self sustaining ... PERIOD. They produce everything and are able to take their companies global. In Canada I was always in the fear of loosing my job and not finding another, I was also unemployed for some time. Sick and tired of racism, discriminatory hiring practices, bureaucratic non sense, uneducated work force, lack of training and development due corporations not having enough money. Personally I think Canada is one big mafia nation, otherwise how are people surviving with such inflated costs on a daily basis? In US the opportunities far outlast supplies so much so that they have to bring people on work permits. I dont stress about loosing my job anymore cause I know I can get another one. I live in Houston and life here is comparable to Toronto (except the weather ofcourse), but with cheaper auto and home insurance, cheaper food, cheap real estate, cheap cars. So at the end of the month I have more than enough for my family and even go on vacation to transatlantic destinations. So I was out of the Canadian nightmare and into the American dream.

So just to give you an idea, I have not changed my eating habit, the model of my car nor my lifestyle or the number of family members.

Toronto
Nissan Maxima (2010) insurance: $350/month
Cost of home in Toronto: $2000sqft $550,000 (mortgage $2400, including hydro, electricity, taxes)
Cost of groceries: $600/month
Eating out: $500/month
Clothing, entertainment & misc: $400/month

Houston
Nissan Maxima (2010) insurance: $50/month
Cost of home in Houston: $4000sqft $300,000 (mortgage $1500 including hydro, electricity, taxes)
Cost of groceries: $400/month
Eating out: $300/month
Clothing, entertainment & misc: $200/month

If realistically the money I am saving is: $1750/month

The difference in the cost of living is quite impressive
Its good to see that you're living the american dream, at least canada facilitated this step for you by granting you citizenship, so most probably you don't regret now - that you immigrated to canada in the past .

 

[on-hold]

And I forgot to mention -- a huge part of what Newtone reports as attributable to the highly different housing markets in Texas and Toronto. There's no argument to be made, buying a house is cheaper in Texas, and many parts of the States than it is in most of Canada. If you compare Toronto to New York or San Francisco, you'd get a different report. But this doesn't invalidate what he says, I'm just pointing out that housing expenses are highly local. Let Canada's housing bubble pop, and see how things look two years from now . . .