+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

To Go Now or To Delay?

Omar34

Full Member
Jul 31, 2018
29
2
I landed back in Aug 2018 with my wife and son. We returned to our home two weeks after landing. We already received our PR cards.

We were planning to make the big permanent move to Canada this time around, but now we are re-considering given the pandemic. Technically speaking, and to adhere to the minimum residency, we can delay it till May June or July of next year (2021). But we don't want to cut it too close (we never know).

What do you advise us to do? to move now (is it safe to do so, with airports and being in a flight for +10 hours?) or delay it for a few months more (until things calm down a bit)?

Thank you for your advice
 

akmh1b

Hero Member
Mar 6, 2018
278
85
Other people's advice would be very subjective. A lot depends on your situation and background. Currently Canada is mostly reopening having kept COViD numbers under check. It's hard to predict future so we don't know when the 14 day quarantine will end. If you think you can find job in your area and have 14 day stay figured out you can make the move.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Omar34

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,810
2,250
Canada
Remember that if you delay too long, you cannot leave Canada FOR ANY REASON without jeopardizing your status; if you leave, miss your RO, and need to appeal a decision to report you for breach, you need to have strong documentation for humanitarian or compassionate reasons for missing your RO.

Personally, I would consider making the move ASAP.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Omar34 and armoured

Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
13,190
2,419
Just to add that the next review date for the 14 day quarantine requirement is August 31st. At this stage nobody knows obviously whether this expiry date will be extended although given the travel restrictions expire July 31 then if that gets extended it may be a good indicator.

As above job wise depends on both your area of expertise and also where you were planning to settle as that could influence your decision. For sure obviously COVID has created a lot of uncertainty in the job market but then again immigration always carried a risk even pre COVID, just this has probably made things harder.

Also of course keep in mind there are daily warnings that a second wave COVID may happen come winter so things may go back to the beginning again as far as restrictions.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Omar34

Bloodrose

Hero Member
Jan 5, 2010
258
34
Other people's advice would be very subjective. A lot depends on your situation and background. Currently Canada is mostly reopening having kept COViD numbers under check. It's hard to predict future so we don't know when the 14 day quarantine will end. If you think you can find job in your area and have 14 day stay figured out you can make the move.
I think this is what it boils down to really. I'm in a similar situation to the OP myself and the biggest concern right now is securing a job.

I currently work in the UK for an international software solutions company and they have been in a hiring freeze since April. In normal times they hire people all over the world every week but there is far too much uncertainty for most businesses to act with confidence atm. The struggling economy in the US and the fact that competition may be more fierce due to people being laid off over the last few months doesn't help much either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Omar34

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
53,022
12,783
Wouldn't leave a stable job but Canada also has a very lenient RO policy already so I wouldn't count on covid being a reason you can't move because you didn't move for the past 2 years when covid wasn't an issue.
 

steaky

VIP Member
Nov 11, 2008
14,333
1,637
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
The flight (10+ hours) in itself should be safe as long as the airline had disinfected the plane, screen & temperature check before check-in and boarding, everyone wear non medical mask; while yourself bring your sanitizer/alcohol and practice common sense during the flight.
 

Bs65

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2016
13,190
2,419
The flight (10+ hours) in itself should be safe as long as the airline had disinfected the plane, screen & temperature check before check-in and boarding, everyone wear non medical mask; while yourself bring your sanitizer/alcohol and practice common sense during the flight.
Just to add that the current recommendation is to only wear the same mask for a maximum of 4 hours so for a 10 hour flight advisable to have at least 3 masks. Obviously this is because not a good idea to breath for so long through a mask and for some even 4 hours a mask may become saturated.

Also for the sake of the cabin crew and any follow on aircraft maintenance / cleaning team everyone should do the responsible thing and take their used masks with them, preferably in a zip lock bag for secure disposal. Many people can be inconsiderate to staff such as cabin crew expecting them to clear up their mess and used face masks adds another dimension they should not have to deal with.

Rant over
 

Bloodrose

Hero Member
Jan 5, 2010
258
34
Wouldn't leave a stable job but Canada also has a very lenient RO policy already so I wouldn't count on covid being a reason you can't move because you didn't move for the past 2 years when covid wasn't an issue.
I both agree and disagree with you. At the end of the day, Canada legally allows PR's to spend up to 1095 days living and working outside of the country in any one five year period. You're right in that is quite a lenient requirement, especially compared with the US, however this year should be a special case.

Right now the Canadian government is advising against all non-essential travel to the country and imposing strict and previously unthinkable restrictions on people upon their arrival. The country is also slowly coming out of a period of extreme economic turmoil. IMHO, I don't think anybody should have an absence in 2020 held against them on their RO record.

Why Canada would want to force people to come back, often against Canada's own travel advice and the advice of the PR's country of citizenship, is completely beyond me. It serves no purpose other than bureaucracy and exposes people to economic, social and health risks for no reason whatsoever. It simply doesn't make any sense. Obviously if you continue to stay out of the country after the travel advice changes then that's on you but telling a guy he should return with his family ASAP when schools might still be closed and work and access to government services are going to be harder than usual to access is just nuts.

Obviously we don't know if absence due to Covid-19 advice would be considered if filing an RO claim under H&C grounds. My personal guess is they would but I think the Canadian government need to offer some clear and sensible advice on this subject. So far they seem to be ignoring the issue entirely whilst still processing new immigrant applications at the same time.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,610
7,943
I both agree and disagree with you. At the end of the day, Canada legally allows PR's to spend up to 1095 days living and working outside of the country in any one five year period. You're right in that is quite a lenient requirement, especially compared with the US, however this year should be a special case.

Right now the Canadian government is advising against all non-essential travel to the country and imposing strict and previously unthinkable restrictions on people upon their arrival. The country is also slowly coming out of a period of extreme economic turmoil. IMHO, I don't think anybody should have an absence in 2020 held against them on their RO record.

Why Canada would want to force people to come back, often against Canada's own travel advice and the advice of the PR's country of citizenship, is completely beyond me. It serves no purpose other than bureaucracy and exposes people to economic, social and health risks for no reason whatsoever. It simply doesn't make any sense. Obviously if you continue to stay out of the country after the travel advice changes then that's on you but telling a guy he should return with his family ASAP when schools might still be closed and work and access to government services are going to be harder than usual to access is just nuts.

Obviously we don't know if absence due to Covid-19 advice would be considered if filing an RO claim under H&C grounds. My personal guess is they would but I think the Canadian government need to offer some clear and sensible advice on this subject. So far they seem to be ignoring the issue entirely whilst still processing new immigrant applications at the same time.
We can all have opinions about what they should do or speculate what they might do.

Here's what we do know: they have to consider h and c reasons, including covid. But we cannot say whether that would be sufficient for someone coming back in mid 2021. (That will depend on how covid continues to develop)

And another thing we do know is that someone who cuts it close - returning just before the RO is out of compliance or who returns out of compliance and gets H&C consideration - that person can face faces real restrictions or delays on travel, renewing documents, sponsoring family members, etc. And the person who cuts it close faces a higher risk of something not going to plan, with serious consequences.

Does that decide it for this person or anyone else? No. Only they can decide.

But the less one cuts it close, the better. And if you do cut it close or risk it with H&C, you accept the consequences.

(And "Govt should have done this instead" won't help much))
 
  • Like
Reactions: dpenabill

Copingwithlife

VIP Member
Jul 29, 2018
3,956
1,920
Earth
I both agree and disagree with you. At the end of the day, Canada legally allows PR's to spend up to 1095 days living and working outside of the country in any one five year period. You're right in that is quite a lenient requirement, especially compared with the US, however this year should be a special case.

Right now the Canadian government is advising against all non-essential travel to the country and imposing strict and previously unthinkable restrictions on people upon their arrival. The country is also slowly coming out of a period of extreme economic turmoil. IMHO, I don't think anybody should have an absence in 2020 held against them on their RO record.

Why Canada would want to force people to come back, often against Canada's own travel advice and the advice of the PR's country of citizenship, is completely beyond me. It serves no purpose other than bureaucracy and exposes people to economic, social and health risks for no reason whatsoever. It simply doesn't make any sense. Obviously if you continue to stay out of the country after the travel advice changes then that's on you but telling a guy he should return with his family ASAP when schools might still be closed and work and access to government services are going to be harder than usual to access is just nuts.

Obviously we don't know if absence due to Covid-19 advice would be considered if filing an RO claim under H&C grounds. My personal guess is they would but I think the Canadian government need to offer some clear and sensible advice on this subject. So far they seem to be ignoring the issue entirely whilst still processing new immigrant applications at the same time.
Because Covid shouldn’t be used as a “ get out of jail card @, when someone has had ample time to plan their move to Canada and become compliant with their RO
I can just see the H&C claims being filed because individuals were non compliant . Hopefully two things will happen;
- The Government realizes how ridiculous it is to have such a lenient RO in place , and change it to be far more restrictive, to a use it or lose it
- The Government starts strictly enforcing compliance with individuals returning and EVEY non compliant individual is referred to the IRCC for review . A CBSA officer should not be involved . When individuals aren’t compliant in filing their taxes they have an extremely high chance of getting assessed, why should individuals who aren’t compliant in their RO , get off scott free ? They shouldn’t. Compliance should have the same definition across all Government departments
 

Bloodrose

Hero Member
Jan 5, 2010
258
34
Because Covid shouldn’t be used as a “ get out of jail card @, when someone has had ample time to plan their move to Canada and become compliant with their RO
Your idea of ample time might not be the same as the next person's. There are always going to mitigating circumstances for certain individuals and the decent thing to do is to take those circumstances into account.

If someone was planning to move this year after spending 2 years out of the country, is moving immediately in defiance of most health advice the right thing to do or would it be better for someone to wait a few months?

I'm sorry but there are just too many unknowns and too much uncertainty this year to throw out a one size fits all net or just wag the finger and say "well you should have moved sooner".
 

Bentham

Full Member
Sep 8, 2018
31
4
Why Canada would want to force people to come back, often against Canada's own travel advice and the advice of the PR's country of citizenship, is completely beyond me. It serves no purpose other than bureaucracy and exposes people to economic, social and health risks for no reason whatsoever. It simply doesn't make any sense. Obviously if you continue to stay out of the country after the travel advice changes then that's on you but telling a guy he should return with his family ASAP when schools might still be closed and work and access to government services are going to be harder than usual to access is just nuts.
I remember our PM giving a speech at the start of the pandemic when he said it was time for Canadians to come home, and he repeated that. The current advice is against leaving Canada not against coming back. So, someone's decision to stay outside Canada is not backed up by any governmental policy consideration, but a personal choice.

I could imaging someone trying to board a flight to Canada and being denied because they exhibited symptoms, and because of that they come later and fail to meet their RO. That would be a H&C consideration. But just staying elsewhere because there is pandemic, less jobs in Canada, and difficulties with traveling, not sure if this may work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mashulia_26

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,294
3,058
Here's what we do know: they have to consider h and c reasons, including covid. But we cannot say whether that would be sufficient for someone coming back in mid 2021. (That will depend on how covid continues to develop)
The post by @armoured (more quoted below) largely covers it.

In addition to "how covid continues to develop" there will many other factors which influence how it goes, most specific to the individual. Extent of breach is probably the single biggest factor.

And another thing we do know is that someone who cuts it close - returning just before the RO is out of compliance or who returns out of compliance and gets H&C consideration - that person can face faces real restrictions or delays on travel, renewing documents, sponsoring family members, etc. And the person who cuts it close faces a higher risk of something not going to plan, with serious consequences.

Does that decide it for this person or anyone else? No. Only they can decide.

But the less one cuts it close, the better. And if you do cut it close or risk it with H&C, you accept the consequences.

REMINDER: The 2/5 rule is NOT intended to facilitate part-time living in Canada, even though PRs can, and more than a few do, manage to take advantage of it in this way. There seems to be a tendency to misunderstand the RO and, in particular, underestimate the importance of the purpose for a grant of PR status: so the individual can SETTLE and LIVE PERMANENTLY in CANADA.


At the end of the day, Canada legally allows PR's to spend up to 1095 days living and working outside of the country in any one five year period. You're right in that is quite a lenient requirement, especially compared with the US, however this year should be a special case.

Right now the Canadian government is advising against all non-essential travel to the country and imposing strict and previously unthinkable restrictions on people upon their arrival. The country is also slowly coming out of a period of extreme economic turmoil. IMHO, I don't think anybody should have an absence in 2020 held against them on their RO record.
Let's be clear: yes, as long as a PR spends at least 730 days IN Canada within any and every five year period (as of the fifth year anniversary of landing), yes, that complies with the Residency Obligation.

And, moreover, if a PR fails to comply with the PR Residency Obligation, before PR status can be officially terminated a Minister's Delegate MUST consider ANY and ALL explanations the PR offers as to why the PR failed to comply, and determine whether the PR should be allowed to keep PR status DESPITE failing to comply with the RO. That is, H&C relief MUST be considered.

BUT the 2/5 RO is NOT intended to facilitate PRs spending "up to 1095 days living and working outside of the country in any one five year period." Make NO mistake, and there are scores of IAD and Federal Court decisions OFFICIALLY stating this (that is, this is not an opinion let alone my opinion): the purpose for giving individuals Permanent Resident status is so they can PERMANENTLY SETTLE IN CANADA.

Many of those same decisions emphasize that the 2/5 RO is to allow PRs the flexibility to deal with real life demands and contingencies that might compel them to go abroad for extended periods of time. A PR is allowed to be absent from Canada for an extended period of time, for example, to settle affairs and make the initial move to Canada. To return home to attend to a gravely ill parent and settle affairs after a parent's death. Among the many other real life situations which might compel a person to spend a long time (up to three years even) in a country other than the country in which they are PERMANENTLY SETTLED. That is, if and when there is a situation compelling a PR to go abroad to attend to a special situation, PRs can do this with NO WORRY about keeping their PR status SO LONG AS they return to Canada in time to avoid being absent for more than 1095 days within the preceding five years (or since landing for new PRs).

Which brings the discussion around to the observation by @armoured about cutting-it-close . . . and more to the point . . . bearing the RISK of cutting-it-close.

It is not yet known to what extent the impact of Covid-19 will be a reason for allowing H&C relief. We have not seen any official cases or anecdotal reports of actual decision-making in RO H&C cases in which the impact of Covid-19 has been a factor. It must be considered, if offered as an explanation by the PR in breach of the RO. But how much positive weight it will have is nearly impossible to forecast.

That said, there are other factors which we have seen discussed at length and in-depth, in scores of OFFICIALLY reported actual cases (in IAD and Federal Court decisions) and it is clear the key factors will continue to have a lot of influence in how things go for any particular individual PR.

I just a bit ago posted some lengthy observations about the impact of covid-19 generally, referencing some key factors; see post linked in the following quote:
Impact of Covid-19 (generally):
And I also posted some lengthy observations about the impact of covid-19 in individual cases; see post linked in the following quote:
Impact of Covid-19 (in individual cases):
Those observations are based in large part on what we have learned from dozens of IAD decisions, numerous Federal Court decisions, the precise statutes and regulations, with due consideration given to anecdotal reports over the course of the last decade or so.

Those particular observations were largely about the situation for a soft-landing PR who was still abroad when Covid-19 travel restrictions began to be implemented this year. As I suggest there, DEPENDING on other factors, it is relatively easy to predict that soft-landing PRs whose trips to settle in Canada are delayed due to Covid-19 are likely to be allowed at least *some* additional leeway in addition to what they typically are allowed. SOME. It is highly unlikely there will be a free pass.

That said, as an aside I also included a brief observation for those who have been a PR for more than five years:
. . . for those who have been a PR for more than five years, my sense is that delays returning to Canada due to Covid-19 will have marginal benefit. Depending on particular circumstances, as ALWAYS, of course. But unless it appears the PR was already WELL-SETTLED in Canada and there was a compelling reason to go abroad and remain abroad, apart from the delay returning to Canada due to Covid-19, my sense is these PRs are not likely to be given anywhere near the leeway soft-landing PRs might be allowed. Reasons why should be obvious.

For such PRs, in addition to what tends to be the biggest factor in almost all RO H&C cases, that is the extent of the breach, the nature and extent of their ties in Canada, including in particular the extent to which they have been well-settled and living permanently in Canada, will likely loom large. It is possible that CBSA and IRCC will give most returning PRs something akin to a credit for much of this year, but frankly that seems less than likely if not quite unlikely.

In particular, it seems a fairly good guess that those PRs who have a history of just barely meeting the PR RO are not likely to be given a lot of additional leeway based on the impact of Covid-19. Their best bet will be to make the trip to Canada almost as soon as possible once formal travel restrictions no longer preclude the trip.

And the following is a noteworthy observation as well:

I remember our PM giving a speech at the start of the pandemic when he said it was time for Canadians to come home, and he repeated that. The current advice is against leaving Canada not against coming back. So, someone's decision to stay outside Canada is not backed up by any governmental policy consideration, but a personal choice.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: armoured

Bloodrose

Hero Member
Jan 5, 2010
258
34
I remember our PM giving a speech at the start of the pandemic when he said it was time for Canadians to come home, and he repeated that. The current advice is against leaving Canada not against coming back. So, someone's decision to stay outside Canada is not backed up by any governmental policy consideration, but a personal choice.

I could imaging someone trying to board a flight to Canada and being denied because they exhibited symptoms, and because of that they come later and fail to meet their RO. That would be a H&C consideration. But just staying elsewhere because there is pandemic, less jobs in Canada, and difficulties with traveling, not sure if this may work.
PR's are not Canadians. They are foreign citizens with a limited right of residence. For diplomatic assistance they are still dependent upon their country of nationality so therefore if Canada is saying return to Canada and their country of citizenship is advising against travelling anywhere then surely their country of citizenship trumps it.

This is especially applicable if they're not settled in a province and therefore aren't eligible for a health program or some sort of Canadian-based health insurance system.