Thank you once again rjessome for educating me. I am relieved for I am debating with someone who is understanding my main concern and who has recognized abilities within me. Otherwise there are many here who are unable to understand the actual concern and making me stand in the convict box and making noise like empty vessels.
Sorry, the debate is going long, but I am really enjoying it. Let me clarify your concerns in more detail.
rjessome said:
You have to understand that hiring an AUTHORIZED representative is about PROTECTING the client.
I tell you a fact about the mentality of Indian clients. Majority of clients trust a local agent rather than a registered consultant/lawyer. Reason? Simple – agent being the local, the clients can get their money back through legal or other ways in case agent commits any fraud. Even if a good local agent has done the work honestly (even if he is a representative of any lawyer/principal consultant) and even then the client is denied visa by CIC for any given general reason wherein client is not found at fault and even then the Principal refuses to refund a single penny, then the local agent sorts out the problem in his closed cabin with the clients – he bears some loss and convinces the clients to bear some amount and pays the clients back from his own pocket. It's not that in all cases the principal counterpart refuses to refund. But in case of refusal, the agent is for sure going to lose atleast some percentage and pays from his own pocket. The reason why such good agents do so is they want to build their reputation and refrain from their firm being labeled as ‘Fraud Company'. Here in India, the law does not listen to the agent. The first step the cops take (upon receiving a complaint from any client against an agent with the charges of alleged fraud) is pick the agent and put him in the lock-up for 1 – 3 nights. During this period in the lock-up, the suited-booted English speaking agent is soooo badly treated. Right from newly appointed constables to Station in-charge abuse/slap him. Almost 3rd degree torture without knowing the fact. And when the problem is taken to the court and if the agent is proved to be innocent looking at the documentations and is let-off by the court, the agent still has to pay ‘farewell amount' to the cops. What then? Do you think that agent who had spent 1/2/3....nights in the lock-up can resume his profession as an “immigration agent”? All the time agents are being sued. Ever heard that client being sued by agent for any charges? No, because good agents do not want to make the case complicated. They do not want to let the matter go out of his chamber. I agree that majority of agents who do not have sufficient knowledge of immigration rules commit fraud when they are found responsible for negative result of the clients. Because of such agents, people like us have to suffer.
rjessome said:
If an UNauthorized agent completes the forms incorrectly, there is NO recourse for the client. There is no method of complaint or discipline or getting the money they paid for service back. There is no way of protecting the public so that others are not victims of an agent that is not trained in immigration law nor regulated by a Society. Authorized representatives carry errors and ommissions insurance to help compensate a client who's representative did not represent them correctly (ethically and legally).
I have seen mistakes committed by CSIC members like entering wrong NOC code in IMM0008 Schedule 3, Personal History mismatching Addresses in form IMM 0008 Schedule 1 and many more other mistakes which either leads to file rejection or file returned by CIC. It was a height of carelessness when the personal secretary of one so called ‘Professional' consultant in Canada ‘Forgot' where she placed the courier cover with documents and signed forms of one client from India. For 3 months consultant did not talk to the client and client also did not follow-up thinking his consultant will call him to update him his file status. Finally the client had to call and the consultant said he did not receive his documents and forms. The client asked why he did not call him for last 3 months, to which the consultant said he has thousands of clients so he asks the client to do as he says only once. Then the consultant finally asked to send the documents and forms again and that because the time was running out to submit federal file, he would have to send a letter to CIC and convince them to accept the file even if it is late, Blah! Blah! as if the client was responsible for all the mess-up. The consultant said, because he will have to do lot of work for ‘client's mistake' of not sending the documents in time, he will charge extra money.
The client sought my advice through some reference. I checked the online status of the courier he had sent earlier which stated that the courier was delivered to the consultant's office on 5th-6th day of sending the courier from India, i.e. 3 months ago. I spoke to the consultant on the client's behalf and argued with him and threatened to report against him to CSIC body. To that the consultant confessed that he did receive the courier but was ‘misplaced' by his staff. This time he did not speak of extra money. Instead he offered discount in his fees for mistake his staff committed.
Now reply to the question arising in your mind “why did the client not carry process of checking the online status and arguing with the consultant as I did”. Simple, the client was not aware of presentation/documentation as I have as he was neither fluent in English nor was he a computer literate, of which the consultant was taking advantage. The client was just metric pass with Diploma in cooking and was a cook by profession. Moreover the job was offered to him by an Indian restaurant owner, so English was not required for the position. The case was processed under SINP process.
The client is now in Canada and doing well, but instead of remaining in touch with his consultant, he is in touch with me. He refers his friends relatives in India to get their files prepared through me as he thinks I am the one because of whom his file was processed fast. Poor guy thinks that I am also a registered CSIC member. In fact he is not aware of difference between registered and un-registered consultant.
rjessome said:
You know, it sounds like the biggest complaint that you have with the consultant or lawyer you were working with is that you feel you were not paid fairly for the services you provided. Fair enough.
Ofcourse I felt I was not paid enough. By now you must have judged my abilities. I ask you, how much would I have been paid by an immigration lawyer/CSIC member firm if I were in Canada? I suppose atleast $5000/month. I was paid just Rs. 20,000 (around $400)/month working for more than 10hrs/day and 6 days a week. FYI, this is the starting salary paid here in India for BPO customer executives and service providing companies to work for 8hrs/day.
rjessome said:
Find another one that is honest and will pay more for your services.
Where is that honest person who wants to hire me? Is he/she reading these quotes? Those who want to, ask for $$$$$ to become their representative. How does their honesty suffice with their business policy of asking for money at very fast step before starting business?
rjessome said:
You mention 10 to 20%. I know consultants and lawyers that pay 40 to 50% to their agents.
I would feel like being on cloud9 if would be paid 50%. I am dying to represent such an honest lawyer who would not charge for getting employment for the client and on the contrary pay me 50% from his pocket. WOW! Meaning, clients shall not have to spend a single penny to settle in Canada except the govt. charges. You won't believe my friend, I would be the single person in whole over Asia who would help people settle in Canada free of cost. Just imagine how popular I would be. OMG. I am so excited. But still doubt whether it is possible.
rjessome said:
An agent should receive training and guidance from their principal (lawyer/consultant) and this pairing should act as a team for the client. This kind of team (when they are knowledgeable and honest) is a HUGE asset to a client. I'm not discounting the value of a good agent! However, YOU, acting alone, cannot be held professionally liable for any mistake that is made on a file! You are also not trained to deal with other things that can and DO come up in immigration applications. What if their are inadmissibility issues? ARC? Rehab? etc., etc. Do you know how to handle this? You weren't even aware of the misrepresentation that I described earlier. What if CIC makes an error on a file? It happens! You would not be authorized to request reconsideration from the Program Manager or NHQ. Would you know how? It's easy to justify using an unauthorized agent over a consultant or lawyer when the application looks easy. But what about when there are difficulties that arise that you are not trained to recognize or to handle? What is the client supposed to do then?
[/quote
When I joined my ex-employer, I was not given any practical training. The boss used to tell me to read manuals and visit the CIC website. I found it a bit ridiculous but it helped me a lot. I studied the manuals and CIC site and collected important information. Within six months, I not only became the Manager, I started training new employees as well as the then current employees so as to enhance their knowledge and also to the staff of agents.
We used to make sure that the client does not have any inadmissibility issue before applying.
No. I was very small pawn in the game of immigration (chess) so I do not know how to handle this. Infact, my ex-boss also did not try to challenge the refusal. If refusal, then close the file and forget it. If the client deserves refund then he used to refund.
rjessome said:
Look, a client MUST take responsibility for their application whether they work with agents/consultants/lawyers or not. If a client does not respond to their representative to provide information that is requested, who is at fault? Are you saying that it's your fault if you ask for something over and over again from a client and they don't provide it? No, it isn't. It HAS to be a team effort with the client 100% invested in the success of the application. If they are not, the application will be refused, no matter who represents them. So using your example does not wash with me. Any client who expects that they don't have to do any work in this process is crazy and there is no excuse for them. [/quote
See, some documents are very difficult to get. The CIC insist that such documents be submitted. See few examples below:
Ex. 1 Birth Certificate. Here in India the parents till 70s were not so accurate to get the registration of newly born child in corporation or Birth/Death registry. Some were not even aware of such office's existence. They realize their mistake when their child grows-up and applies for further higher study or immigration in other country. So, what if there is no birth certificate? What should the client do? Should he stop his process just for not getting one single document of birth certificate? No, there are options. But the client is not aware of that. He needs to be educated which govt dept he should approach to and what optional document he should obtain and what other supporting document he should attach so as to prove his birth. Simple, the applicant should get a Non-availability record certificate from birth/death registry and get an affidavit on stamp paper. Now again, what matter the client should type in the affidavit? Who is going to explain them especially for immigration purpose and that too in English? Not all lawyers / consultants help them as to what contents should be typed in the affidavit. That's where UNREGISTERED consultants like us play the role.
Ex. 2 The CIC insist that the translator of documents should give a separate affidavit on a stamp paper that he has translated the documents of xyz applicant. Dear, this is not at all possible. None of the translator would leave his chair and go with the applicant here and there to get the affidavit, stamping etc. His rubber stamp and signature itself is enough to prove that he is an authorized translator. Because of this reason also the process is at stake. The only thing required here is a proper presentation to the CIC and the file moves further.
Ex. 3. The CIC asks for Police Clearance Certificate from the country of citizenship for over 18 years as well as from all those countries where the principal applicant / spouse have lived for more than 6 months. Say if any client had stayed for 2 years in UAE/KSA but he is living in his country of citizenship or any other country. The applicant is still asked to get PCC from that country of UAE/Gulf/KSA. The police department of these countries is in no way going to pay any heed to any or the requests from anyone who has made an exit. Had the applicant committed any punishable offence/crime, then under no circumstances could the applicant make an exit from any of the countries. His safe exit automatically means that the applicant did not commit any crime. Many few of the immigration consultants are aware of this fact. Who is going to explain this fact to the CIC who keeps on asking for PCC from the country which he has already left. I myself solved cases of nearly 10 clients of my ex-boss. The clients who were already in any of the gulf/middle east countries were able to provide PCC for their federal file submission. But the application of those who had exited was at stake. My boss kept on insisting them to get the PCC anyhow. Poor applicants repeatedly gave the same reply – they can't get the PCC once they make and exit. For this the process remained at stake for nearly 2 months. I made a research and found that those who exit any of these countries automatically means that they did not commit any punishable crime. I sent the link of the site to my ex-boss and drafted a covering letter addressed to CIC which was sent to the HO Canada and my ex-boss used to just sign it and send it to the CIC. After that, the passport was released with stamped visa. It then became routine in cases of all those applicants who had exited such countries and being asked to submit PCC from there.
Who lacks knowledge? Me, my ex-boss or CIC?
rjessome said:
And YES, they may get their money back! Retainer agreements (contracts) signed by the client and representative outline payment for work done on a file. If the work is NOT done, the client should get their money back! Again, if there is an issue with that, the client has a mechanisim of complaint against an AUTHORIZED representative and a way of getting their money back. They have NO recourse with an unauthorized agent. [/quote
I have seen agreements of several consultants wherein there is no refund clause at all. If asked why so, they say what refund? What for? Are we here to refund the money? We won't refund money to client if client is at fault – criminal record found, failure in medical test, false representation/documentation – (fair enough).
What if the client fails to produce documents (above 3 examples)?
Reply: Obviously their fault. (Fair enough)
Is it not your duty to guide them how to obtain or what options are there in absence of particular documents?
Reply: Our duty is just to ask them to provide the documents as ask for. How to get is their look-out.
What if you commit any mistake (example of misplaced documents/errors in the form)?
Reply: We never commit any mistake. If at all we commit, we will refund 25% or so. (what a great obligation)
What if the applicant fails to get any of the above three relevant documents or fails to clarify about being unable to produce any of the above documents? The consultant/lawyer, quoting the clause # ......... in the agreement between the client and him, is for sure not going to refund even part amount of the fees paid by the client till that stage. Whereas we, the UNREGISTERED consultants make sure that the clients have all the documents. If he does not have any, then help him in getting the option (ex. 1 above)
rjessome said:
I'm always leary of anyone, authorized or not, who gives a 100% guarantee in immigration. That is simply impossible. I don't know why people continue to believe that. So buyer beware. [/quote
Sorry to say, you have wrong information/knowledge about Indian system. Not a single consultant/agent/representative here would guarantee a visa. We tell the client that even if the CIC asks you to submit the original passport, it does not guarantee the visa. Same is mentioned in the letter sent by CIC to a particular client asking to submit the passport. We have highlighted those lines and put it on the notice board and point out the same to the clients who ask for any guarantee of visa adding if the visa officers themselves do not guarantee the visa even at the stage where they are asking to submit the passport, who the hell are we to guarantee the visa at the very first meeting with the clients?
