The C students rule the world

[toby]

Teddy Roosevelt said it was the C students who ruled the world. He was right.

When I was in school, the poorer students -- the ones who could not get scholarships -- left before graduate school and joined the government. Yet those functionaries hold so much power over us! Is it their sweet revenge?

 

[CharlieD10]

I don't know about the government functionaries in Jamaica being C students, and could say less so for Canada. It seems to me a great many rather intelligent people I know and went to school with work for the Jamaican government, and it's all a huge con to keep the rest of us in line and under their thumbs. I've dealt with many government departments in the course of my job as an accountant/auditor, and all I've come across are a lot of rules, regulations and downright idiotically complex procedures designed NOT to be understood by the average Jamaican. If the people who concocted these rules had been the C students, I shudder to think what would have happened had the really intelligent ones gone into government.

 

[toby]

.... it's all a huge con to keep the rest of us in line and under their thumbs. I've dealt with many government departments in the course of my job as an accountant/auditor, and all I've come across are a lot of rules, regulations and downright idiotically complex procedures designed NOT to be understood by the average Jamaican. If the people who concocted these rules had been the C students, I shudder to think what would have happened had the really intelligent ones gone into government.

I too have worked with bureaucrats. Some of them are well-meaning people who work hard at their jobs, but none of the ones I've met understood the entire "system" of rules. Ask them to question the rules and they usually react with resentment and hostility; if you want them to do something for you, like renew a passport, you quickly learn to stop asking such "can you think outside of the box?" questions.

Each bureaucrat knows his/her small piece of the puzzle, but cannot -- or does not seem to want to -- fathom the rest of the system, and has no power to change it. So, inertia reigns.

Perhaps there is someone at the top who understands the entire system, and could reform it, but that is not where his primary interest lies. His main preoccupation each day is to curry favour with his political masters, to climb ever higher on the bureaucratic ladder.

I wonder, though, what would happen if really clever people joined the government. Would they be more likely to question some of the idiocies we see in the rules? Or would they learn to suffer in silence, because that is the easier way to promotion?

 

[canadianwoman]

Teddy Roosevelt said it was the C students who ruled the world. He was right.

When I was in school, the poorer students -- the ones who could not get scholarships -- left before graduate school and joined the government. Yet those functionaries hold so much power over us! Is it their sweet revenge?

Keep in mind that the visa officers who are making our lives so difficult are Foreign Service Officers, and they are most definitely not C students. 10,000 people a year write the exams to become a FSO, and the gov't usually hires about 70 or so. The exams take all day, and include an IQ test. You have to have a 4-year university degree just to take the tests - a law degree or a graduate degree will help you actually get hired.
Oh, and then there are the language tests. If you can pass one of these in one of the high-difficulty, high-importance languages (Mandarin, Korean, Japanese, Russian, Arabic), you're also more likely to get hired. One hour, over the phone, discussing political and social questions with two native speakers.

 

[toby]

Keep in mind that the visa officers who are making our lives so difficult are Foreign Service Officers, and they are most definitely not C students. 10,000 people a year write the exams to become a FSO, and the gov't usually hires about 70 or so. The exams take all day, and include an IQ test. You have to have a 4-year university degree just to take the tests - a law degree or a graduate degree will help you actually get hired.
Oh, and then there are the language tests. If you can pass one of these in one of the high-difficulty, high-importance languages (Mandarin, Korean, Japanese, Russian, Arabic), you're also more likely to get hired. One hour, over the phone, discussing political and social questions with two native speakers.

Then how to explain how obtuse some of them can be? The VO who assessed my application for a visitor's visa for my wife must have missed a few classes in logic, to judge by how facile and circular his reasoning was for refusing the application. As proof: the same embassy (maybe even the same VO?!) approved an application from another couple in very-similar circumstances, so the logic is applied inconsistently. Maybe it's not logic at all; maybe it's mere whim applied randomly. You don't need much education or brilliance for that.

And why do they gain advantage by speaking a difficult language, when all documents must be translated, and applicants must bring a translator to the interview if needed? If speaking Mandarin is an attribute, VOs don't seem to use it for the practical benefit of citizens.

 

[canadianwoman]

Then how to explain how obtuse some of them can be?

I am mystified by this as well. The VO who assessed my husband's application didn't seem to be any genius either.

The VO who assessed my application for a visitor's visa for my wife must have missed a few classes in logic, to judge by how facile and circular his reasoning was for refusing the application. As proof: the same embassy (maybe even the same VO?!) approved an application from another couple in very-similar circumstances, so the logic is applied inconsistently. Maybe it's not logic at all; maybe it's mere whim applied randomly.

I think the officers assessing the visitor visa applications are not always Canadians. The standards for the local hires are not necessarily very high. For the PR applications, though, I'm pretty sure the VO is always a Canadian.

And why do they gain advantage by speaking a difficult language, when all documents must be translated, and applicants must bring a translator to the interview if needed? If speaking Mandarin is an attribute, VOs don't seem to use it for the practical benefit of citizens.

If you apply to be a Foreign Service Officer, you get extra points for getting a certain score on the tests for those 5 languages. Still, most of the FSOs don't know one of these languages, or may know one but not very well.
I took these tests once, and the other candidates I spoke to seemed to think that if you passed one of the language exams you would get hired for sure. Sadly, that is not true - I passed both Japanese and Korean, but didn't get hired.
And I have to say that if they had hired me, I suppose I could have conducted an interview in Japanese or Korean with a PR applicant, but it would have been better for everyone if he/she had had an interpreter. Mrs. Turan's husband had a relevant experience: his VO did conduct his interview in his native language - Turkish - but he felt that she didn't speak it all that well and misunderstood him sometimes.

 

[CharlieD10]

Because somewhere in all of the tests and requirements, someone forgot to include a psych evaluation that asked them about all the slights and bullying (real or imagined) that they feel they have endured in life to date that they will then extract revenge for from the unsuspecting people who have to deal with them when they get the government job.

If they are the smart ones, with the foreign languages and the higher education, then according to popular culture they were not the popular kids in school and the butt of everyone's idea of a joke. In a bureaucracy, their intelligence is validated and their need for retribution is free to be expressed in ways that are, to their higher intelligence, not "cruel" but actually required, because they are just doing their job, right?

I've seen it too often in Jamaica: cops are charming sociopaths who are given guns they don't hesitate to use on the public, because they are just doing their job, right? Nurses and doctors are harsh, unempathetic "caregivers" who don't hesitate to treat patients like so much cattle because if they showed compassion they might feel compelled to provide a decent level of care, and their job is actually to keep government's costs down. Teachers are salaried employees more interested in their breaks and benefits than the quality of education they are to impart to the country's future. I could go on, but I am depressing myself.

My point is, Canadian embassy staff, intelligent and educated, or average and obtuse, are like bureaucrats everywhere. The human aspect of their job is of little interest to them, "fairness" is more of a foreign concept than the language of the country they are in, and whatever the government claims is the purpose of their department in order to woo the voting public, the internal memos they are guided by are very different.

 

[rjessome]

I'm sorry but I have to offer some defence to the VOs. I'm going to be really unpopular after this.

This is a case of "walk a mile in my shoes" and only then can you really know what the job of a VO is like. I've never been a VO but I know several ex-VOs and their experiences are fascinating. May I also point out that the ones that I know are very kind, compassionate and intelligent people. There are bullies everywhere in society and while I'm sure some find their way into the Foreign Services, I would highly doubt it is the majority so that's an unfair label.

1. In many cases, a VO must live a very isolated life, unable to assimilate into the country where they reside. For one, they must report all of their associations and acquaintances with foreign nationals so Big Brother is watching them all the time. Secondly, how would you like it if the majority of the local people you did make friends with pressured you to "do something" for them regarding immigration to Canada? After experiencing this a few times, you would shy away from making friends.
2. Being lied to is an everyday occurance. Imagine how your pschye would change if you were lied to everyday, even several times a day, to your face. You would have to have Superman's bullet proof skin for that NOT to affect you and make you jaded. You are often called every name in the book and have your personal safety threatened. I was in a job once where I evaluated people for a government program. It was a pass/fail system and an applicant failed the tests. They lunged at me when I gave them the news and had to be physically removed from the building, all the while screaming at me and threatening with hateful words. It shook me up for weeks! It happened once and I've never forgotten it. Now imagine that happening on a regular basis.
3. This job has HUGE responsibilities. Would you want to be the VO who lets the next murder, rapist, or terrorist into your country? Imagine that pressure on your shoulders everyday when doing your job.
4. You have to wade through incomplete, poorly done applications to get to the meat and truth of the matter. If people spent as much time on their applications as they do on this board, trust me, they would make both their lives and the lives of the VO much easier!
5. This is a HARD job with a LOT of work. Every ex VO I talked to told me about the long hours, often without extra pay because they are salaried, the stacks of applications to get through, their desire to do their job well, the pressure to meet quotas all the while adhereing to and applying the law, etc., etc. Burn out is high.

Ok, I'm not saying they don't get it wrong sometimes, many times. I complain about it as much as the next person. But there must be some perspective as well. I wish I was perfect and every decision I made was correct. That's what I strive for as do most people in their jobs. But we are ALL human right? Why aren't VOs human too? Well they aren't because we all live in our own bubble of "ME-dom" and if they do something wrong that affects "ME" then they are all idiots painted with the same brush. Not fair. On this board, we represent a small snippet of the percentage of visa applications that are processed by these people every year. You will notice the MAJORITY of the people who post on these boards are here for a short time because they get through the process relatively quickly and without a hassle. I wonder how many have sent a Thank You card to the VO? LOL! None! It's a pretty thankless job. And we all, from the outside, think we can do it better. But only because we don't have a clue what it is like to walk a mile in their shoes.

 

[CharlieD10]

I'm sorry but I have to offer some defence to the VOs. I'm going to be really unpopular after this.

You make some valid points, you couldn't possibly be unpopular for it!

1. It sounds to me like the ones you know worked in Jamaica, most people here seem to think that anyone even remotely connected with a foreign embassy has some kind of power or connections to power who can "do something for them". As for the isolation, I live down the road (literally) from the Canadian embassy, and their staff are apparently confined for much of the time to the compound and the attached apartment buildings, I can't recall ever seeing anyone actually entering the apartment buildings or walking about in the gardens. On the other hand, how do you explain their surly and sometimes downright miserable attitudes in comparison to the embassy staff I have dealt with at the American embassy? Maybe they should get out more, this is actually a nice neighbourhood.

2. There are certain professions where anyone who plans to go into them simply must accept that they are going to be lied to. Either you accept it, or you get out. To let it make you so jaded you eventually start from the position that everyone is a liar and should be treated accordingly is a cop out. As an auditor, clients try to conceal things from me all the time, or ask me to turn a blind eye to something (wink wink, nudge nudge). On my first day of orientation, the senior partner told us, "You are here because no-one trusts business people. Banks, customers, shareholders, tax people, no-one trusts them. We are here to mediate." I have always tried to keep that attitude. Professional skepticism is not the same thing as treating everyone like a liar until they prove otherwise.

3. As I understand it, security checks are conducted by another department and not the VOs themselves, or is this inaccurate? No, I wouldn't want them admitting rapists and terrorists etc to their country, but I have always wondered how the dozens of Jamaicans deported from various countries got past the VOs in the first place, when someone like my mother gets turned down for "insufficient ties" because she wants to attend her son's college graduation.

4. I am going to give you a pass on this one. Having seen some of the questions asked by some persons on this forum, I can understand this one all too well. Grammar Nazi that I am, in their shoes I would spend more time correcting spelling and grammar than actually reading the forms.

5. I don't think anyone said this job was going to be glamourous or easy? Lots of people work long, hard hours with no additional pay for a great deal less than the average VO earns. I realise lots of people might think Foreign Service is going to be a James Bond type thing, rubbing shoulders with what passes for high society wherever you are, swanning into the office to banter with Miss Moneypenny etc etc, but surely they aren't the majority. It's a job, like any other. Do it conscientiously, or get out. A somewhat black and white attitude, I know, I know.

 

[toby]

I agree with Rjessome, and I agree with Charlie. Good thing I have a split personality!!!!