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RO Obligations

OmarSarfraz

Hero Member
Jul 25, 2014
491
119
Hello Everyone,

I have been stayed in Canada on PR since 1 year 2 months (Since November 2019). I did a soft landing in November 2016 and stayed 20 days in Canada. After that I came back in November 2019 and since then, have been in Canada.

My question, is will those 20 days be counted? Can I take a short holiday (2 weeks) and still be in compliance of RO?

Thanks!
 

scylla

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Jun 8, 2010
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Hello Everyone,

I have been stayed in Canada on PR since 1 year 2 months (Since November 2019). I did a soft landing in November 2016 and stayed 20 days in Canada. After that I came back in November 2019 and since then, have been in Canada.

My question, is will those 20 days be counted? Can I take a short holiday (2 weeks) and still be in compliance of RO?

Thanks!
You need to provide us with exact dates.

Exactly when (what date) did you land in November 2016 and become a PR?

Exactly when (what date) did you return to Canada in November 2019?
 

OmarSarfraz

Hero Member
Jul 25, 2014
491
119
You need to provide us with exact dates.

Exactly when (what date) did you land in November 2016 and become a PR?

Exactly when (what date) did you return to Canada in November 2019?

I landed on 16th November 2016 (became PR) and left on November 25th 2016 and then came back on 6th June 2018 and left on June 13th 2018. After that I came back for good on 15th November 2019 and since then I am in Canada.
 

PMM

VIP Member
Jun 30, 2005
25,494
1,947
Hi

I landed on 16th November 2016 (became PR) and left on November 25th 2016 and then came back on 6th June 2018 and left on June 13th 2018. After that I came back for good on 15th November 2019 and since then I am in Canada.
1, Count back from today 5 years, 19/Jan/2016.
2. 9 days after "landing" , 7 days in Jun/18, 431 days from Nov 2019, total days = 447 days.
3., You are still 283 days short of being in compliance with your RO.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,446
7,870
Hi



1, Count back from today 5 years, 19/Jan/2016.
2. 9 days after "landing" , 7 days in Jun/18, 431 days from Nov 2019, total days = 447 days.
3., You are still 283 days short of being in compliance with your RO.
This is not precise in one key sense - this is not giving 'credit' for the days remaining to the first five-year anniversary. (I find calculating days OUT of Canada easier in this context, the 1095 day approach - see * below)

The OP is in compliance right now, but not by much.

The law states:
(b) it is sufficient for a permanent resident to demonstrate at examination
(i) if they have been a permanent resident for less than five years, that they will be able to meet the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately after they became a permanent resident;

The part (i) here basically means that at any examination date, the PR is given credit for the prospective days remaining to the five-year anniversary of landing, i.e. as if the PR will be in Canada throughout that period. (Or in more simple terms, add the days remaining to the total physical presence days from past).

In the OP's case, this means at examination, i.e. on return, he must have 730 days including the days remaining to November 16, 2021. So to your calc of 447 days, add the ~299 days from today to November 16, for 746 days. So the poster IS compliant with residency obligation right now (as consideration is given for the days-to-landing anniversary).

From those remaining ~299 days one must subtract of course any days out of Canada. That is, this 746 days total is IF the OP remains in Canada through November 16 and does not depart from Canada for vacation at all. And - in a pure technical days-count perspective - can leave for a vacation outside Canada of ~14 days.

BUT: this is not without risk. Any delay could mean falling out of compliance. Any sudden urgent need to leave Canada for personal or professional reasons would mean additional risk. Application for new PR card will be possibly subject to even longer consideration and approval (meaning even more difficulty with travel in future, PRTD examinations).

So for the OP: it appears you COULD technically have just enough days for a short vacation. (Important: do this calc on your own and take responsibility for it; no-one hear will bear any consequences if there's a mistake, you will).

But it really may not be a good idea to take your vacation now. You are leaving yourself (if you depart Canada for 14 days) a 'buffer' for your RO of only one or two days. By remaining in Canada now, going past your landing anniversary day for three-four months, you will be more comfortably in compliance with some normal buffer of over, say, 60 or better 90 days. (You should also consider when you apply for PR card). Keep in mind after that anniversary you start to 'lose' days from before the five-year period.

Of course, only you can decide.

*1095 day rule: for those PRs with less than five years (landed less than five years from date of calculation), RO is calculated giving 'credit' for days-remaining to the five year anniversary of landing. THEREFORE, it may be easier to calculate days out of Canada as of any given date, and the 730 days IN Canada requirement is equivalent to 5 years * 365 days - 730 day residency = max 1095 days outside Canada.

For the OP above: from November 16, 2016 has been out of Canada from 11-Nov-18 to 6-Jun-18 (558 days) plus 13Jun-18 to 15-Nov-19 (520 days) = 1078 days (therefore approximately 17 days buffer).

Note: this is MY simple calc. I'm not checking for leap years, I have just plugged in dates as given and not tried to correct / ensure partial days are exact, etc. Just showing an example - it's up to any PR to do their own EXACT calcs.

I'm also assuming most PRs who are concerned about this do not want to be in a situation where they are in/out of compliance by only a few days.
 
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cinvest2021

Star Member
Jan 2, 2021
89
11
Hi



1, Count back from today 5 years, 19/Jan/2016.
2. 9 days after "landing" , 7 days in Jun/18, 431 days from Nov 2019, total days = 447 days.
3., You are still 283 days short of being in compliance with your RO.
I do not think this is correct.
OP is in compliance so far, because this would be their 1st anniversary of 5-year period after the 1st landing.
The 20-day buffer does count (if supposedly it is exactly 20, double check with precise calc. to be on safe side, looks more like 17-ish...).
So answer to OP question is YES.
My personal suggestion however is to leave that little room for an emergency case, if this can be accommodated.

I think armoured has given you quite exhaustive answer.
 

Smile24x7

Full Member
Mar 8, 2016
40
10
Hello armoured,

I’d like to have a same question with regards to my PR obligations, under this thread.

I landed on 5th Feb 2018 (soft landing) and left on 11th Feb 2018, and then came back on 30 May 2019 for a short vacay and left on 7th June 2019. After that I was supposed to move for good to Canada in February 2020, but due to Covid and travel restrictions and I am in now still outside of Canada. My PR card however remains valid ‘til 5 June 2023.

I have bought the air ticket to come back to Canada for good on 23rd Feb 2021 (this year) despite the situation. Could you and everyone please shed a light whether I am compliant with residency obligations or I am at risk?

Many thanks and looking forward,
Gina

This is not precise in one key sense - this is not giving 'credit' for the days remaining to the first five-year anniversary. (I find calculating days OUT of Canada easier in this context, the 1095 day approach - see * below)

The OP is in compliance right now, but not by much.

The law states:
(b) it is sufficient for a permanent resident to demonstrate at examination
(i) if they have been a permanent resident for less than five years, that they will be able to meet the residency obligation in respect of the five-year period immediately after they became a permanent resident;

The part (i) here basically means that at any examination date, the PR is given credit for the prospective days remaining to the five-year anniversary of landing, i.e. as if the PR will be in Canada throughout that period. (Or in more simple terms, add the days remaining to the total physical presence days from past).

In the OP's case, this means at examination, i.e. on return, he must have 730 days including the days remaining to November 16, 2021. So to your calc of 447 days, add the ~299 days from today to November 16, for 746 days. So the poster IS compliant with residency obligation right now (as consideration is given for the days-to-landing anniversary).

From those remaining ~299 days one must subtract of course any days out of Canada. That is, this 746 days total is IF the OP remains in Canada through November 16 and does not depart from Canada for vacation at all. And - in a pure technical days-count perspective - can leave for a vacation outside Canada of ~14 days.

BUT: this is not without risk. Any delay could mean falling out of compliance. Any sudden urgent need to leave Canada for personal or professional reasons would mean additional risk. Application for new PR card will be possibly subject to even longer consideration and approval (meaning even more difficulty with travel in future, PRTD examinations).

So for the OP: it appears you COULD technically have just enough days for a short vacation. (Important: do this calc on your own and take responsibility for it; no-one hear will bear any consequences if there's a mistake, you will).

But it really may not be a good idea to take your vacation now. You are leaving yourself (if you depart Canada for 14 days) a 'buffer' for your RO of only one or two days. By remaining in Canada now, going past your landing anniversary day for three-four months, you will be more comfortably in compliance with some normal buffer of over, say, 60 or better 90 days. (You should also consider when you apply for PR card). Keep in mind after that anniversary you start to 'lose' days from before the five-year period.

Of course, only you can decide.

*1095 day rule: for those PRs with less than five years (landed less than five years from date of calculation), RO is calculated giving 'credit' for days-remaining to the five year anniversary of landing. THEREFORE, it may be easier to calculate days out of Canada as of any given date, and the 730 days IN Canada requirement is equivalent to 5 years * 365 days - 730 day residency = max 1095 days outside Canada.

For the OP above: from November 16, 2016 has been out of Canada from 11-Nov-18 to 6-Jun-18 (558 days) plus 13Jun-18 to 15-Nov-19 (520 days) = 1078 days (therefore approximately 17 days buffer).

Note: this is MY simple calc. I'm not checking for leap years, I have just plugged in dates as given and not tried to correct / ensure partial days are exact, etc. Just showing an example - it's up to any PR to do their own EXACT calcs.

I'm also assuming most PRs who are concerned about this do not want to be in a situation where they are in/out of compliance by only a few days.
 
Last edited:

PMM

VIP Member
Jun 30, 2005
25,494
1,947
Hi

Hello armoured,

I’d like to have a same question with regards to my PR obligations, under this thread.

I landed on 5th Feb 2018 (soft landing) and left on 14th Feb 2018, and then came back on 30 May 2019 for a short vacay and left on 11th June 2019. After that I was supposed to move for good to Canada in February 2020, but due to Covid and travel restrictions and I am in now still outside of Canada. My PR card however remains valid ‘til 5 June 2023.

I have bought the air ticket to come back to Canada for good on 23rd Feb 2021 (this year) despite the situation. Could you and everyone please shed a light whether I am compliant with residency obligations or I am at risk?

Many thanks and looking forward,
Gina
1. The 5 year period would be 05/02/18 to 05/02/23 , you would need 730 days of residency,.
2. If you return 23/02/21 you have 21 days in the "bank" . There are 712 days until 05/02/23. So you would have a buffer of 3 days, so you would be in compliance of your RO if you don't leave Canada.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,446
7,870
1. The 5 year period would be 05/02/18 to 05/02/23 , you would need 730 days of residency,.
2. If you return 23/02/21 you have 21 days in the "bank" . There are 712 days until 05/02/23. So you would have a buffer of 3 days, so you would be in compliance of your RO if you don't leave Canada.
I haven't checked the math here but seems right.

@Smile24x7 , you're going to have to check the dates and math yourself to be sure.
 
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Smile24x7

Full Member
Mar 8, 2016
40
10
Much appreciated your explanation PMM! I assume the 21 days in the “bank” were from my previous travel to Canada. I had some amendments just now after carefully checking my travel docs. It goes:
  • 5/2/2018 to 11/2/2018 (instead of 14/2/2018)
  • 30/5/2019 to 7/6/2019 (instead of 11/6/2019)
From the revised travel logs, I assume this mean my days in the “bank” are shortened, from 21 days to 15 days - right?

AND Does this also mean I will be missing 3 days from the RO obligations if I make my travel on 23/02/2021? If yes, will this really be an issue for me as the first time PR (within the first 5years)? :(

Kindly advise, many thanks for your valuable insights! @PMM @armoured @cinvest2021

Gina

Hi



1. The 5 year period would be 05/02/18 to 05/02/23 , you would need 730 days of residency,.
2. If you return 23/02/21 you have 21 days in the "bank" . There are 712 days until 05/02/23. So you would have a buffer of 3 days, so you would be in compliance of your RO if you don't leave Canada.
 
Last edited:

Smile24x7

Full Member
Mar 8, 2016
40
10
I haven't checked the math here but seems right.

@Smile24x7 , you're going to have to check the dates and math yourself to be sure.
Thanks @armoured. I carefully checked my previous travels one more time and had some amendments on the dates leaving Canada, would really appreciate your feedback on my questions above too if possible!
Cheers, Gina
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,446
7,870
Thanks @armoured. I carefully checked my previous travels one more time and had some amendments on the dates leaving Canada, would really appreciate your feedback on my questions above too if possible!
Cheers, Gina
Again, you need to check your dates and totals carefully for compliance yourself. Any errors or omissions - like the residency obligation itself - are your responsibility.

Assuming the three days out of compliance calculation is correct: obviously if you can reschedule to arrive earlier, that would be better.

Now, three days out of compliance on arrival? My guess would be that with only three days and almost any covid-related reason, they would not start any formal process (and if they did, you'd have good chances that covid was a good reason to delay arrival). Even saying the new covid testing requirement caused you to scramble to figure out how to do it. Difficulties arranging for quarantine/isolation plans as well.

Two points:
-pay careful attention to the covid-related requirements and be sure to have everything needed for that.

-because out of compliance, every time you are re-examined - principally at ports of entry - the compliance with RO may come up. If you are actively residing in Canada at that time and only slightly out of compliance, it is more likely that the officers will understand. But it's not without risk even if small.

BUT: if you need to travel, and particularly often and for any length of time, it will take longer to get back in compliance and with increasing risk for being out of compliance.
 
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Smile24x7

Full Member
Mar 8, 2016
40
10
Again, you need to check your dates and totals carefully for compliance yourself. Any errors or omissions - like the residency obligation itself - are your responsibility.

Assuming the three days out of compliance calculation is correct: obviously if you can reschedule to arrive earlier, that would be better.

Now, three days out of compliance on arrival? My guess would be that with only three days and almost any covid-related reason, they would not start any formal process (and if they did, you'd have good chances that covid was a good reason to delay arrival). Even saying the new covid testing requirement caused you to scramble to figure out how to do it. Difficulties arranging for quarantine/isolation plans as well.

Two points:
-pay careful attention to the covid-related requirements and be sure to have everything needed for that.

-because out of compliance, every time you are re-examined - principally at ports of entry - the compliance with RO may come up. If you are actively residing in Canada at that time and only slightly out of compliance, it is more likely that the officers will understand. But it's not without risk even if small.

BUT: if you need to travel, and particularly often and for any length of time, it will take longer to get back in compliance and with increasing risk for being out of compliance.
I noted your points with deep gratitude, thank you for your sharing!
I understand better now of the risk that I won't be able to leave Canada until my compliance of 730 days is met and the PR is renewed.

However, in my case of missing 3 days for the RO obligations, let's say if I have stayed beyond the 3 days to fulfill 730 days in Canada, would I be able to travel overseas by then, or should I renew my PR first then travel? FYI my PR Card will expire on June 2023... Thanks!

Cheers,
Gina
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
15,446
7,870
However, in my case of missing 3 days for the RO obligations, let's say if I have stayed beyond the 3 days to fulfill 730 days in Canada, would I be able to travel overseas by then, or should I renew my PR first then travel? FYI my PR Card will expire on June 2023... Thanks!
I'd say wait until later in the process to work out details about renewing your card (and also get more familiar with the residency obligation and how it works). Important to note that PR status does not 'expire,' only the card - while in Canada you're still there legally.

The short form is:
-as long as you have a valid PR card, you can board a flight back to Canada and you will be admitted.
-if you are in compliance at that point, you will not have any problems. (It's possible they might warn you that your are 'close' (to out of compliance).
-if you're out of compliance, you may be admitted with no questions, some quesitons and a comment or warning that you are out of compliance, or a formal report process start.

When your PR card is no longer valid, the issue is that you will not be able to board flights to Canada - meaning the only option is to enter through land border from USA. Apart from the issue of not being able to board flights, the situation is more-or-less the same as above (with the possibility of more scrutiny because your PR card has expired).

If you are in RO compliance and need to travel by air and PR card is not valid, you can apply for PRTD from abroad (actually you can apply in either case, but if out of compliance, it may get refused and process started of revoking unless you have humanitarian/compassionate or other grounds that convince the officer; usually they are more strict than at border).
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
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I noted your points with deep gratitude, thank you for your sharing!
I understand better now of the risk that I won't be able to leave Canada until my compliance of 730 days is met and the PR is renewed.

However, in my case of missing 3 days for the RO obligations, let's say if I have stayed beyond the 3 days to fulfill 730 days in Canada, would I be able to travel overseas by then, or should I renew my PR first then travel? FYI my PR Card will expire on June 2023... Thanks!

Cheers,
Gina
You will need to make sure you continue to meet the 730 day out of 5 years when outside Canada.
 
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