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RO Appeal with the IAD

Earth2Mars

Star Member
Mar 13, 2017
96
2
Hello.

My appeal is on RO for a PRTD application under H&C being rejected.

long story short: I became PR when I was under 9. I left with my family before I was 10. They never came back. I never knew anything about my PR status, when I was 17 I wanted to go to school in Canada (normal study permit application) but I couldn't get my parents to let me (no financial support for the application), so I went to university and being angry at that, I took too long, graduated 11 years later (don't ask me how)
a year before I graduated, I discovered that my PR status never ended and that there is something called PRTD. a semester before I graduated, I applied to for the PRTD, upon graduation I received a rejection letter.

I sent my Notice of Appeal April 2017, received my appeal record July 2017, I managed to return to Canada and have been here for 6 months now (studying fulltime)

I received a letter from IAD requesting written submission explaining my position for the appeal to be allowed.
I sent it two days ago.

My question is: Could I send new letters/applications to both the IAD and Minister's council whenever a new evidence/circumstance/something to report like my status and proof of settlement is available? Letters that I get from my landlord, my school instructor as a recommendation I use for the job, would be a good thing to show?

For example, I got a new job, could I submit a letter about this with proof of course and whatnot?
I am trying to maximize my chances to win my appeal under H&C.

what do you think?
 
Last edited:

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,759
Unfortunately there is little chance of winning the appeal. If you qualify you can apply to immigrate once you have lost your PR. Many people did warn you that this likely going to happen.
 

Earth2Mars

Star Member
Mar 13, 2017
96
2
Unfortunately there is little chance of winning the appeal. If you qualify you can apply to immigrate once you have lost your PR. Many people did warn you that this likely going to happen.
yes. I understand.
It is really unfair for the case to be likely dismissed.

however, Is what I am doing supporting my settlement?
and can I keep mailing the IAD with relevant circumstances and new developments to support my case?
I want to show them that I am indeed doing everything I can to settle here and indeed WANT to settle here and I am worried that I may have to show instead of just doing them. My brother who is under 22 is here as well.

My case is in Montreal and I am residing in Vancouver. Should I request the case to be moved to Vancouver? I mean for being too strict and being far from where I am
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,759
I'm not sure why you feel that the situation is unfair. You were in Canada for a short time as a young child and then wanted to come back under the same PR but 15+ years later without meeting your RO. There is a loophole;e for children who were removed as minors but they are expected to return as soon as possible when they are adults not after university especially 10 years later. Even then there are no guarantees. You should think of your case like anyone else in their late 20s who would like to move to Canada. Yes your lawyer can ask to notify IAD that you are now living in Vancouver.
 

Earth2Mars

Star Member
Mar 13, 2017
96
2
I was removed when I was a minor.
The only time I learned about my PR status only a year ago, and when I graduated, the first thing I did was leave for Canada.

I didn't try to work in my country I didn't wait except for my appeal record to work out so I can be sure i have a case happening, after talking to lawyers, I left to Canada.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,759
Most applicants are expected to apply as soon as they are adults even before school as close to age 18 as possible. Unfortunately your age has an impact on your application and that is why your attempts to retain your PR have so far been denied. Showing that you are very involved in Canadian life and that you wish to remain won't hurt your application.
 

Earth2Mars

Star Member
Mar 13, 2017
96
2
Most applicants are expected to apply as soon as they are adults even before school as close to age 18 as possible. Unfortunately your age has an impact on your application and that is why your attempts to retain your PR have so far been denied. Showing that you are very involved in Canadian life and that you wish to remain won't hurt your application.
wont hurt as in won't improve or degrade?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
3,018
I sent my Notice of Appeal April 2017, received my appeal record July 2017, I managed to return to Canada and have been here for 6 months now (studying fulltime)

I received a letter from IAD requesting written submission explaining my position for the appeal to be allowed.
I sent it two days ago.

. . . . . . .

I am trying to maximize my chances to win my appeal under H&C.
FOREMOST: LAWYER-UP. To maximize your chances you need the assistance of a good immigration lawyer.

That said, maximizing your chances at this stage, in the circumstances you have reported, appears to be akin to placing a bet on a second number at the roulette wheel. A careless gambler's odds.

Otherwise you have already done what will possibly help your case the most: you have come to live in Canada. Contrary to suggestions above (in other posts), fact the PR is actually living in Canada while the appeal is pending not only MUST be considered by the IAD but it is definitely a POSITIVE factor. The problem, however, that is what is your problem, is the weight of your current presence in Canada appears likely to be heavily outweighed by other factors in your situation. Even if you were in Canada from the beginning of the appeal, the positive weight due being settled in Canada would have likely been well-outweighed by the extended absence (nearly 20 years?) plus the delay in seeking to return to Canada for many years after becoming an adult. But in addition to that, you remained abroad for another 10 months or so (best I can extrapolate from your posts) after starting the appeal.

Given a shortage of other ties in Canada (at least you do not mention any), prudence dictates you should be prepared to lose your PR status.

I say that even though I am extremely reluctant to offer conclusive opinions about probable outcomes in an individual's case. I am NOT qualified to offer personal advice in individual cases. No one is here. In particular, I am very sure that @canuck78 likewise is NOT qualified to offer any such advice or opinion, at least NOT in this venue. Totally apart from an individual's personal qualifications and knowledge, this venue is NOT appropriate for sharing anywhere near sufficient personal information for ANYONE (even a highly competent immigration lawyer, if perhaps any participant here is one) to be qualified to offer personal advice about an individual case here.

That said, sure, some situations indicate rather predictable outcomes. And, based on what facts have been shared, and other probable facts suggested by their absence (for example, it appears you do not have other close family living in Canada, or that you are facing any special hardships if you lose PR status), unfortunately your situation appears to fall into this category, that is a case in which it is relatively apparent the odds are high against a successful appeal, UNLESS there are some unmentioned circumstances which could help tip the scales in the other direction.

Again, this is not an appropriate venue for revealing sufficient personal details for ANYONE here to reliably assess an actual individual case. To obtain an opinion of that sort, the PR needs to at least consult with a lawyer (a paid-for consultation; free consultations are worth what you pay for, as in virtually nothing).

This forum can be informative and instructive regarding how this or that factor can influence things. Thus, (again contrary to suggestion otherwise) we know that living in Canada while an appeal is pending in a PR RO case will affect the decision-making, since it is very much a positive factor. We know that the longer the absence, the more NEGATIVE weight that has. The longer the time period between when a PR could have returned to Canada and the PR's attempt to return, the more NEGATIVE weight that has. The greater the hardship a loss of PR status will have, the more positive that factor is. We know a negative impact on a Canadian child carries a lot of weight. And so on . . . most of the relevant factors are explicitly enumerated, many discussed at length, in scores and scores of published IAD decisions, and also referenced in ENF 23 "Loss of Permanent Resident Status" which is linked at this IRCC webpage:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals.html
(see section 7.7 beginning on page 26)

BUT as much as we can identify and to some extent roughly quantify such factors, including what influence they MIGHT have (just might, way short of what influence they will have), UNLESS it is a rather obvious, clear case, no one here should be offering declarative or definitive conclusions about what will happen, what the actual outcome will be. In the more obvious scenarios (yours is very close to this), it may be fair to suggest a LIKELY outcome, even a highly likely outcome. An opinion more definitive than that should be ignored as inherently unreliable.

Unfortunately, your situation appears to lean toward a more-or-less-obvious-scenario. It probably falls into a category for which ANY chance of success could depend on the assistance of a competent, reputable immigration lawyer. And even then . . . well, for a more definitive opinion you really need to talk to a lawyer.

Hello.

My appeal is on RO for a PRTD application under H&C being rejected.

long story short: I became PR when I was under 9. I left with my family before I was 10. They never came back. I never knew anything about my PR status, when I was 17 I wanted to go to school in Canada (normal study permit application) but I couldn't get my parents to let me (no financial support for the application), so I went to university and being angry at that, I took too long, graduated 11 years later (don't ask me how)
a year before I graduated, I discovered that my PR status never ended and that there is something called PRTD. a semester before I graduated, I applied to for the PRTD, upon graduation I received a rejection letter.

I sent my Notice of Appeal April 2017, received my appeal record July 2017, I managed to return to Canada and have been here for 6 months now (studying fulltime)

I received a letter from IAD requesting written submission explaining my position for the appeal to be allowed.
I sent it two days ago.

My question is: Could I send new letters/applications to both the IAD and Minister's council whenever a new evidence/circumstance/something to report like my status and proof of settlement is available? Letters that I get from my landlord, my school instructor as a recommendation I use for the job, would be a good thing to show?

For example, I got a new job, could I submit a letter about this with proof of course and whatnot?
I am trying to maximize my chances to win my appeal under H&C.

what do you think?
 

Earth2Mars

Star Member
Mar 13, 2017
96
2
FOREMOST: LAWYER-UP. To maximize your chances you need the assistance of a good immigration lawyer.

That said, maximizing your chances at this stage, in the circumstances you have reported, appears to be akin to placing a bet on a second number at the roulette wheel. A careless gambler's odds.

Otherwise you have already done what will possibly help your case the most: you have come to live in Canada. Contrary to suggestions above (in other posts), fact the PR is actually living in Canada while the appeal is pending not only MUST be considered by the IAD but it is definitely a POSITIVE factor. The problem, however, that is what is your problem, is the weight of your current presence in Canada appears likely to be heavily outweighed by other factors in your situation. Even if you were in Canada from the beginning of the appeal, the positive weight due being settled in Canada would have likely been well-outweighed by the extended absence (nearly 20 years?) plus the delay in seeking to return to Canada for many years after becoming an adult. But in addition to that, you remained abroad for another 10 months or so (best I can extrapolate from your posts) after starting the appeal.

Given a shortage of other ties in Canada (at least you do not mention any), prudence dictates you should be prepared to lose your PR status.

I say that even though I am extremely reluctant to offer conclusive opinions about probable outcomes in an individual's case. I am NOT qualified to offer personal advice in individual cases. No one is here. In particular, I am very sure that @canuck78 likewise is NOT qualified to offer any such advice or opinion, at least NOT in this venue. Totally apart from an individual's personal qualifications and knowledge, this venue is NOT appropriate for sharing anywhere near sufficient personal information for ANYONE (even a highly competent immigration lawyer, if perhaps any participant here is one) to be qualified to offer personal advice about an individual case here.

That said, sure, some situations indicate rather predictable outcomes. And, based on what facts have been shared, and other probable facts suggested by their absence (for example, it appears you do not have other close family living in Canada, or that you are facing any special hardships if you lose PR status), unfortunately your situation appears to fall into this category, that is a case in which it is relatively apparent the odds are high against a successful appeal, UNLESS there are some unmentioned circumstances which could help tip the scales in the other direction.

Again, this is not an appropriate venue for revealing sufficient personal details for ANYONE here to reliably assess an actual individual case. To obtain an opinion of that sort, the PR needs to at least consult with a lawyer (a paid-for consultation; free consultations are worth what you pay for, as in virtually nothing).

This forum can be informative and instructive regarding how this or that factor can influence things. Thus, (again contrary to suggestion otherwise) we know that living in Canada while an appeal is pending in a PR RO case will affect the decision-making, since it is very much a positive factor. We know that the longer the absence, the more NEGATIVE weight that has. The longer the time period between when a PR could have returned to Canada and the PR's attempt to return, the more NEGATIVE weight that has. The greater the hardship a loss of PR status will have, the more positive that factor is. We know a negative impact on a Canadian child carries a lot of weight. And so on . . . most of the relevant factors are explicitly enumerated, many discussed at length, in scores and scores of published IAD decisions, and also referenced in ENF 23 "Loss of Permanent Resident Status" which is linked at this IRCC webpage:
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals.html
(see section 7.7 beginning on page 26)

BUT as much as we can identify and to some extent roughly quantify such factors, including what influence they MIGHT have (just might, way short of what influence they will have), UNLESS it is a rather obvious, clear case, no one here should be offering declarative or definitive conclusions about what will happen, what the actual outcome will be. In the more obvious scenarios (yours is very close to this), it may be fair to suggest a LIKELY outcome, even a highly likely outcome. An opinion more definitive than that should be ignored as inherently unreliable.

Unfortunately, your situation appears to lean toward a more-or-less-obvious-scenario. It probably falls into a category for which ANY chance of success could depend on the assistance of a competent, reputable immigration lawyer. And even then . . . well, for a more definitive opinion you really need to talk to a lawyer.
I REALLY appreciate your input!

I agree with you. I do have other factors that might work out for me.
Howveer my main point is that I wanted to have a sense and opinions/factors that help increase the chances, one of them being in Canada, and other things I might not be aware of (job or marriage)

Key points here:
1- I was removed as a minor at age 9.
2- After high school, I wanted to go to Canada, having experienced it when I was 9, to study, (study permit) which requires financial funds (my parents paper being 17 at that time (problem is how I could prove this other than witnesses) I am the first born boy in a country where this worked against me.
3- The knowledge of my PR status was never discovered until my brother applied for his study permit and got a letter from the embassy that he was and therefore all of us were still PR. Advice was to renounce and reapply or attempt a PRTD. He did and got accepted, he was 18.
I was in my last semester (continuous student status, no travels, no jobs, no anything in my whole life to indicate attempts of settlements in any country)
4- Had I been able to submit my study permit papers when I was 17, I would have known and applied for my own PRTD when I was 17, but it did not happen because as a minor I was controlled by my parents, therefore missed my accidental chance to discover my status. My brother who is the 4th child got his chance because I don't know Dad felt safe with social media around and post 9/11 troubles.
5- When my brother was issued a PRTD, I realised I was still PR. so I applied myself in a way that the processing of it ends where I could leave without having to worry about my graduation (11 years in uni, it is common sense and best interest to graduate, not apply and leave just like that, cI am sure the court is human occupied, ya?)
6- I applied, 5 months later got rejected, filed my appeal a month later. and my appeal record 4 months later. all this time I had no idea I was still PR who can enter Canada, after my appeal record I contacted lawyers and assessed my situation either start work and hope for the IAD to allow my appeal or actually leave as soon as possible. I did leave March because I had to figure out a visa to US.
7- I am here since April, confirmed my SIN, got bank account, started school and paying rent, going to events, and advancing myself in the normal humanly possible progression.

Yes, I am old, but the key thing is I hadn't been aware of my status and yet stayed for work or other matters. I left, and I have a brother here who is under 22 whom I hadn't seen in years.

I hope this gets through or I will actually be devastated and fall into deep depression as I have been for the past 11 years. This is my first ever awakening to life.

I am sharing this not as a desperate plea or anything other than looking out for things to do in order to cement my feet in Canada's soil and never leave ever, I have wanted this sense 17.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,252
3,018
Better to go into detail with a lawyer.

No one here can reliably gauge the relative weight of factors in a PR RO H&C case when there are multiple factors, and indeed the actual weight any given factor will have can also depend a lot on the individual member of the IAD who will hear and decide the case.

What a lawyer can do is identify the more significant positive elements and help frame those in a way that leverages their influence. And avoid letting the case be bogged down or distracted by focusing on non-productive elements.

But the facts are nonetheless the facts.

H&C cases are almost always tricky (except in the most obvious cases); almost always difficult (again, except in the most obvious cases).

Many of the factors you enumerate appear to be largely about the same thing. And perhaps, leaning toward likely, prone to being more a distraction or diffusion, taking away from the case's strengths rather than highlighting and elevating the real strong points.

For example, I do not know how significant it is that your active pursuit of returning to Canada was delayed due to a lack of knowledge about your status or rights, but in the general scheme of things this could have negative weight as well, given it tends to show your life has not been dependent on status or living in Canada. It is probably a necessary element, to explain the delay, but my GUESS is this is little more than that, and not worth giving it much more attention let alone elaborating. (Detailed explanations of one's thought processes may sound good in our head, but they rarely play well to fact-finders or decision-makers.)

Emphasis on my *GUESS.* Again, how the various factors will play, how much one will weigh relative to the others, is very, very difficult to gauge, and how they will be judged together is way beyond what any of us can reasonably infer.

In particular, balancing the various factors is, on one hand, very complicated . . . many factors can push the needle in disparate directions . . . but on the other hand, the weight given particular factors can also depend on a more or less general judgment balancing not-easily-quantified broad factors, including the individual's connections to Canada versus connections outside Canada, together with something of a fairness judgment. The latter is particularly uncertain, enigmatic if not inscrutable.

Thus, for example, it matters how unfair it is to not grant a waiver? How does someone even begin to sort that out? In particular, however, how unfair is it, in the scheme of things, to not grant a waiver to an individual who has not been in Canada for two decades? who has had minimal actual connections to a life in Canada? who did not even know he or she had status to live in Canada?

While connections after the PR TD was denied, including living in Canada, are a positive factor weighing in favour of allowing a PR to keep status, the weight of this is way less than the extent of connections and especially the extent of actually living in Canada before the PR TD was denied. How much positive weight does less than a year in Canada two decades ago carry? How much hardship is implicated in not granting status to live somewhere the individual has not lived more than 25 of the last 26 years?

You have an uphill case. I believe this was illuminated some time ago. It appears your best chance probably depends on obtaining assistance from a qualified, competent, skilled lawyer (which I am not suggesting would give you a good chance, just better than otherwise).

No reason to pay much attention to encouraging observations here. Or to discouraging observations here. You are here. The case is likely to be decided relatively soon. Might as well make the best case you can. A lawyer really is important in this regard. Both procedurally (which is what your OP in this topic was about, what procedure to follow to better present your case) and substantively (which arguments to actually make and what evidence will support those arguments).



I REALLY appreciate your input!

I agree with you. I do have other factors that might work out for me.
Howveer my main point is that I wanted to have a sense and opinions/factors that help increase the chances, one of them being in Canada, and other things I might not be aware of (job or marriage)

Key points here:
1- I was removed as a minor at age 9.
2- After high school, I wanted to go to Canada, having experienced it when I was 9, to study, (study permit) which requires financial funds (my parents paper being 17 at that time (problem is how I could prove this other than witnesses) I am the first born boy in a country where this worked against me.
3- The knowledge of my PR status was never discovered until my brother applied for his study permit and got a letter from the embassy that he was and therefore all of us were still PR. Advice was to renounce and reapply or attempt a PRTD. He did and got accepted, he was 18.
I was in my last semester (continuous student status, no travels, no jobs, no anything in my whole life to indicate attempts of settlements in any country)
4- Had I been able to submit my study permit papers when I was 17, I would have known and applied for my own PRTD when I was 17, but it did not happen because as a minor I was controlled by my parents, therefore missed my accidental chance to discover my status. My brother who is the 4th child got his chance because I don't know Dad felt safe with social media around and post 9/11 troubles.
5- When my brother was issued a PRTD, I realised I was still PR. so I applied myself in a way that the processing of it ends where I could leave without having to worry about my graduation (11 years in uni, it is common sense and best interest to graduate, not apply and leave just like that, cI am sure the court is human occupied, ya?)
6- I applied, 5 months later got rejected, filed my appeal a month later. and my appeal record 4 months later. all this time I had no idea I was still PR who can enter Canada, after my appeal record I contacted lawyers and assessed my situation either start work and hope for the IAD to allow my appeal or actually leave as soon as possible. I did leave March because I had to figure out a visa to US.
7- I am here since April, confirmed my SIN, got bank account, started school and paying rent, going to events, and advancing myself in the normal humanly possible progression.

Yes, I am old, but the key thing is I hadn't been aware of my status and yet stayed for work or other matters. I left, and I have a brother here who is under 22 whom I hadn't seen in years.

I hope this gets through or I will actually be devastated and fall into deep depression as I have been for the past 11 years. This is my first ever awakening to life.

I am sharing this not as a desperate plea or anything other than looking out for things to do in order to cement my feet in Canada's soil and never leave ever, I have wanted this sense 17.
 

scylla

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I REALLY appreciate your input!

I agree with you. I do have other factors that might work out for me.
Howveer my main point is that I wanted to have a sense and opinions/factors that help increase the chances, one of them being in Canada, and other things I might not be aware of (job or marriage)

Key points here:
1- I was removed as a minor at age 9.
2- After high school, I wanted to go to Canada, having experienced it when I was 9, to study, (study permit) which requires financial funds (my parents paper being 17 at that time (problem is how I could prove this other than witnesses) I am the first born boy in a country where this worked against me.
3- The knowledge of my PR status was never discovered until my brother applied for his study permit and got a letter from the embassy that he was and therefore all of us were still PR. Advice was to renounce and reapply or attempt a PRTD. He did and got accepted, he was 18.
I was in my last semester (continuous student status, no travels, no jobs, no anything in my whole life to indicate attempts of settlements in any country)
4- Had I been able to submit my study permit papers when I was 17, I would have known and applied for my own PRTD when I was 17, but it did not happen because as a minor I was controlled by my parents, therefore missed my accidental chance to discover my status. My brother who is the 4th child got his chance because I don't know Dad felt safe with social media around and post 9/11 troubles.
5- When my brother was issued a PRTD, I realised I was still PR. so I applied myself in a way that the processing of it ends where I could leave without having to worry about my graduation (11 years in uni, it is common sense and best interest to graduate, not apply and leave just like that, cI am sure the court is human occupied, ya?)
6- I applied, 5 months later got rejected, filed my appeal a month later. and my appeal record 4 months later. all this time I had no idea I was still PR who can enter Canada, after my appeal record I contacted lawyers and assessed my situation either start work and hope for the IAD to allow my appeal or actually leave as soon as possible. I did leave March because I had to figure out a visa to US.
7- I am here since April, confirmed my SIN, got bank account, started school and paying rent, going to events, and advancing myself in the normal humanly possible progression.

Yes, I am old, but the key thing is I hadn't been aware of my status and yet stayed for work or other matters. I left, and I have a brother here who is under 22 whom I hadn't seen in years.

I hope this gets through or I will actually be devastated and fall into deep depression as I have been for the past 11 years. This is my first ever awakening to life.

I am sharing this not as a desperate plea or anything other than looking out for things to do in order to cement my feet in Canada's soil and never leave ever, I have wanted this sense 17.
I agree with dpenabill. You have an uphill case and your chances of successfully appealing under H&C are likely quite low. IRCC doesn't really accept the lack of awareness excuse. The onus is on you alone to understand the rules. By all means move forward with the appeal. However be aware that your chances of success are not high and make sure you have a Plan B in the event you can't save your current PR status. If living in Canada is a priority for you, then your Plan B should be focused on extensively researching Canada's immigration programs and understanding what it will take to successfully apply for PR again from scratch if your appeal is lost.