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Psychical Presence: Missing work permit and Implied Status questions

Moak

Member
Dec 9, 2017
10
3
Hi all!
I'm finally ready to apply for citizenship (after living here for over 15 years!). I have 2 quick questions:

1. I need the beginning date of my most recent work permit before I became a Permanent Resident. I can't find that permit. I've been trying to reach CIC by phone but can't reach an agent due to high call volume. I also can't find anywhere on the website where I can get that date. What are my options?

2. Before getting that missing work permit, I was on Implied Status for a few months. Can I count those? There is no Implied Status option in the drop-down menu of the Physical Presence Calculator. I've seen a few posts about this here, but no definitive answers.

Thank you,
Mo
 

ChippyBoy

Hero Member
Dec 5, 2016
375
168
Hi all!
I'm finally ready to apply for citizenship (after living here for over 15 years!). I have 2 quick questions:

1. I need the beginning date of my most recent work permit before I became a Permanent Resident. I can't find that permit. I've been trying to reach CIC by phone but can't reach an agent due to high call volume. I also can't find anywhere on the website where I can get that date. What are my options?

2. Before getting that missing work permit, I was on Implied Status for a few months. Can I count those? There is no Implied Status option in the drop-down menu of the Physical Presence Calculator. I've seen a few posts about this here, but no definitive answers.

Thank you,
Mo
Try contacting your employer's HR office to see if they might have kept a photocopy of your old work permit on file. But if you're only looking at your eligibility period of the last 5yrs, then you may not actually need info/copies of any work permits going back as far as 15yrs; although, like all past personal history stuff, it can be useful to have it among all the bumph that one takes to the interview, as a just-in-case.
 

Moak

Member
Dec 9, 2017
10
3
I didn't work for anyone using that work permit. I co-founded a company then received my PR a few months later. (Edit: So there is no HR department, and I wasn't able to find it in any of my digital documents)

This specific work permit is within the last 5 years. A rough estimate of the date puts me within days of the minimum presence requirement. So I'd like to be sure before applying since my estimate could be a month or 2 off.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,281
3,040
I was on Implied Status for a few months. Can I count those?
Whatever the technically correct answer is, the PRACTICAL answer is easy and obvious: best to NOT rely on days in Canada pursuant to implied status.

Remember: the burden of proof is on the applicant. Implied status is only that, "implied." There is no formal grant of status during that period of time. No proof of status during that time.

No advanced degrees in bureaucratology are necessary to recognize it could be hard to prove status if there is no documentation or other proof of status.

The practical aspects of relying on pre-PR credit is NOT much talked about or wrestled with in the forum. There tends to be a lot of weight given IT-COUNTS. Too much so I'd venture.

Who is more or less likely to encounter non-routine processing, let alone overt problems, due to wrinkles in documenting days present in Canada pursuant to this or that version of temporary resident status, is a big subject I do not have time to elaborate much about.

I can, however, emphasize there are many PRACTICAL considerations to take into account when making a decision about WHEN is the right time to apply. Relying on days that technically count can actually HURT if, in practice, counting those days triggers non-routine processing (even if just to request documentation of status for those days) let alone triggering overt concerns about whether they do count (which could result in RQ and presence-case processing, which can add months or even YEARS to processing timelines).

As I have oft cautioned, those who rush to apply rather often discover a longer road to the oath.

I do not mean to discourage you or anyone from applying when eligible. For some, waiting longer means just waiting longer.

For some others, waiting longer to apply can mean becoming a citizen sooner and with a lot less hassle along the way, and less hassle usually means less anxiety. Rarely hurts to lower the anxiety levels. Each individual needs to sort out and make these decisions for herself or himself, depending on the specific situation in her or his life. All I can recommend is to NOT be rushed, and to recognize that days after becoming a PR count not just as full days but count without any question as to status. And while it is not always true, for most applicants the more days over the minimum, the stronger the case, the fewer questions or concerns IRCC is likely to have.

In this vein, talking about what makes for a stronger case, applicants with a solid employment history working for a readily recognized Canadian employer generally have, on the face of things, a significantly stronger case than those who are self-employed (regardless of the business form, corporate or as a simple DBA sole proprietorship), or for that matter than those employed by family. Those with a facially stronger case can usually afford to apply with a smaller margin over the minimum. (My self-employment history was very much a part of my decision to wait nearly TWO years longer to apply for citizenship. My been-there-done-that perspective on this particular aspect of things.)

Another potential strength-of-case factor can be related to whether the work is fully IN-Canada work. Not sure if this is a factor for you, but it should be obvious that if the employment/work involves working-abroad, it is a good idea for the prospective applicant to build a stronger case, including more margin above the minimum, before applying. (This is another piece in my been-there-done-that perspective; my work was done entirely in Canada, but my work involves providing services for clients abroad, and that too factored into my decision to wait nearly two years to apply after the day I passed the eligibility threshold.)

Ultimately, what matters most is counting on days that do count. So, ultimately what really matters is that the days that do count add up to meeting the minimum requirement. BUT it is often worthwhile to take into account the risk of questions or concerns about these or those days, and apply only when those without question are enough.
 
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ZingyDNA

Champion Member
Aug 12, 2013
1,252
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Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-Ottawa
NOC Code......
2111
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-06-2013
AOR Received.
28-08-2013
IELTS Request
Sent with Application
Med's Request
21-02-2014 (principal applicant)
Med's Done....
07-03-2014 (both, upfront for spouse)
Passport Req..
10-04-2014
VISA ISSUED...
22-04-2014
LANDED..........
13-06-2014
I don't wanna be a grammar Nazi here but OP don't you mean "Physical presence" in the thread title, not "Psychical presence"? The meaning is totally different o_O
 

Moak

Member
Dec 9, 2017
10
3
I just got off the phone with a nice CIC agent. I got the date I was missing.

For the Implied Status question: She confirmed that days under Implied Status do count. They count as the previous status you were in. ie. If you had a visitor permit, you've applied for a work permit, then the visitor permit expires, then you got the work permit a year later. That year of Implied Status counts as a Visitor. The other temporary residence rules still apply (Each day counts as half a day up to a maximum of 1 year)

Posting this to help anyone checking this thread for answers despite the title typo!
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,281
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While this is in response to the OP's issue, it is also to emphasize that even if one is confident pre-PR credit SHOULD be given credit, it is prudent to approach relying on that time with a good deal of caution, paying close attention to potential pitfalls. This is not to discourage reliance on time clearly present pursuant to readily documented status, but rather to CAUTION against taking it for granted the time will count.

In particular, while I cannot forecast how it will actually go in any particular case, I can say that relying on a significant amount of time based on "implied status" very likely faces an elevated risk of running into problems, so much so it is quite likely the far better approach would be to WAIT and not rely on that time.

In particular:

For the Implied Status question: She confirmed that days under Implied Status do count. They count as the previous status you were in. ie. If you had a visitor permit, you've applied for a work permit, then the visitor permit expires, then you got the work permit a year later. That year of Implied Status counts as a Visitor.
Just to be clear, be aware that just because those days should technically count (assuming the help centre agent is correct, which is far from a guarantee), does NOT assure that relying on them will be problem free. Implied status is ripe for the kind of scenario recently reported in another thread:

Hi
I submitted my application about a month ago, with more than 1150 days of physical presence credit. About 275 days of my credit was accumulated during about 550 days I was in Canada as a visitor, waiting for my PR application to be processed by CIC (I was being sponsored by my husband, who was a PR living in Canada at the time).

Today, I received a mail from CPC Sydney with a cover letter and my entire application package. The letter indicates that "based on the review of the information provided by you, and verification of your time in Canada prior to becoming a permanent resident, we have determined that you were not physically present in Canada for the minimum 1095 days. This discrepancy can occur for a number of reasons, however, most of the time this is due to an error in physical presence calculation. In your particular case, some or all of the time reported on the calculator (prior to Permanent Resident date) could not be verified in our records."

In my application package, I had sent them the copies of all of my flight itineraries as well as the passport stamps for every single time I have left and returned back to Canada. I think it is likely that they have missed one or more entry records in their database.

Considering that I am 100% confident that my calculations are correct and that I have fulfilled the physical presence requirements prior to my application date, what course of action fo you think is most appropriate for me to start the process of my application. Also, does that mean that the 630 CAD I have paid for my application fee is gone?
Any advice would be really appreciated.
As I previously observed, there tends to be too much emphasis by many relying on days that count with inadequate regard for the practical impact the burden of proof has. Just because it counts does NOT guarantee it will be counted.

In regards to the problem faced by marido, whose application relying on days prior to becoming a PR was summarily returned based on NOT getting credit for those days (despite marido having status), I posted the following:

Some Observations About Pre-PR Visitor Days:

As you are aware and others have concurred, days present in Canada prior to becoming a PR count so long as the applicant had legal status during those stays. Perhaps this is better stated as they "SHOULD" count.

However, the burden of proof is on the applicant. And that includes the burden of PROVING STATUS as well as actual presence.

While somewhat contrary to the consensus here, that is the Common-Wisdom in this forum, in respect to this I have many times CAUTIONED about the problem of actually PROVING both status and presence as a visitor. In particular, I have cautioned that if IRCC's internal records, the client's overall FOSS and GCMS records, do NOT include a formal grant of status and record of entry, an application relying on credit for such Pre-PR periods of time will very likely, at best, run into serious non-routine processing pursuant to which the applicant would be required to more thoroughly document and prove BOTH STATUS and PRESENCE. (While you are the first person I've seen report an instance of this problem since the change in law last October, there were scores of such reports under the old pre-June 2015 law; those with formal visitor status usually getting credit, albeit some subject to further proof as to actual presence, while many without formal documentation of visitor status running into a cannot-prove-it wall.)

Again, the burden of proof is on the applicant.