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PR still in process and having PRTD issues while abroad

bigdavy

Newbie
Apr 30, 2020
2
0
i am a permanent resident of Canada since 2012 with a card which expired in July 2017 while i was in my home country i entered Canada again last year by US border then i lived in Canada for a 3 months before applying to renew my PR card in April 2019 at the time i had 748 day of RO, since then my card status is still in process they have asked of me to provide supporting documents which i did , i have gone back to my home country again in march 2020 and was hoping to use the US border to come back but i cant because of COVID 19 ,
i decided to apply for a PRTD and i had 796 days in the last 5 years from the day of application now they have asked me to provide additional documents to support that i have met the RO. i am not in Canada now so the proof i would be able to gather is limited , i have provided booking flights ,bank statements ,etc..

my question is
1)should i be worried that they can deny me the PRTD even though i met the RO when i applied for the PRTD?
2)and also i will no longer meet RO by the time they issue the PRTD , isn't that a problem when trying to enter?
3)can i lose my PR doing all this ?

thank you in advance for your response.
 

devnill

Hero Member
Dec 5, 2015
219
22
my question is
1)should i be worried that they can deny me the PRTD even though i met the RO when i applied for the PRTD?
2)and also i will no longer meet RO by the time they issue the PRTD , isn't that a problem when trying to enter?
3)can i lose my PR doing all this ?

thank you in advance for your response.
1) Yes, the onus is on you to prove you meet the RO, clearly IRCC have doubts. The date that you signed the PRTD application is the date they will use to determine if you meet RO I believe.
2) If the PRTD is issued, I think it will be valid for 1 year and allow you a single entry to Canada. However it would then be up to you to meet the RO before leaving Canada again.
3) Potentially, if they decide that you don't meet the RO then they can begin proceedings to revoke PR.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
4,314
1,459
i am a permanent resident of Canada since 2012 with a card which expired in July 2017 while i was in my home country i entered Canada again last year by US border then i lived in Canada for a 3 months before applying to renew my PR card in April 2019 at the time i had 748 day of RO, since then my card status is still in process they have asked of me to provide supporting documents which i did , i have gone back to my home country again in march 2020 and was hoping to use the US border to come back but i cant because of COVID 19 ,
i decided to apply for a PRTD and i had 796 days in the last 5 years from the day of application now they have asked me to provide additional documents to support that i have met the RO. i am not in Canada now so the proof i would be able to gather is limited , i have provided booking flights ,bank statements ,etc..

my question is
1)should i be worried that they can deny me the PRTD even though i met the RO when i applied for the PRTD?
2)and also i will no longer meet RO by the time they issue the PRTD , isn't that a problem when trying to enter?
3)can i lose my PR doing all this ?

thank you in advance for your response.

1)should i be worried that they can deny me the PRTD even though i met the RO when i applied for the PRTD?

Worrying does little or no good.

Generally the risk a PR TD application is denied is LOW as long as the PR was in fact in Canada 730+ days within the relevant five years. Even if cutting-it-close.

Your risk appears to be a little higher than that. Which I will address near the end of this post.

Nonetheless the odds probably are good you will be issued a PR TD and thus be able to return to Canada, and if you do so, and are settled to stay in Canada, have NO problem keeping your PR status.

Since your risk appears to be a little higher than what would generally be anticipated for your situation, I will offer some longer, more in-depth observations.


LONGER, MORE IN-DEPTH OBSERVATIONS:

If there are any concerns or doubts about the PR's reported days in Canada, what matters is whether the PR meets the burden of proof. To quote a half-dozen or more cop movies, and a Denzel Washington character in particular, "it's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

In your situation the biggest factor looming large is whether or not IRCC has any information or evidence that is contrary to any of the information you have submitted, either for the PR card application or the PR TD application. Or any cause to apprehend you have otherwise made any misrepresentations . . . in either the applications themselves, or to PoE officials upon arrival when returning to Canada in the past (such as presenting a visa-exempt passport and concealing fact of being a returning PR, or claiming to have been in Canada more recently than was true) . If so, that would significantly increase your RISK of problems.

Beyond that . . .

For the PR who has obviously been outside Canada more than in Canada, that is, cutting-it-close, meeting the burden of proof can be a little more difficult because, obviously, if there is any doubt about where the PR was, then the reasonable inference is that the PR was probably NOT in Canada.

This is the reasonable inference because, after all, for any period of time it is not certain where the PR was, the reasonable inference is the PR was where the PR usually was . . . so for the PR who was outside Canada more than in Canada, that can tip the scales to inferring the possibility, or perhaps even a likelihood, the PR was outside Canada.

Nonetheless, so far as what is seen in IRB IAD decisions, it seems unusual to see a PR TD application denied unless it appears quite clearly the PR is likely short of meeting the minimum. That is, generally there is not much cause to worry.


2)and also i will no longer meet RO by the time they issue the PRTD , isn't that a problem when trying to enter?

It can be a problem. Yes, the RO is a continuing obligation and thus a PR can be examined as to RO compliance upon arrival at a PoE even though recently the PR was issued a PR TD. And, yes, if in that examination it is determined the PR is not in compliance with the RO, as of that day, the PR can be issued a 44(1) Report for inadmissibility AND a Departure Order. The PR would be allowed to enter Canada and then can appeal, and must win the appeal in order to keep PR status.

That said, this too is NOT usual. From most reports, a PR bearing a valid PR TD is allowed to enter Canada without being Reported, even if between the date of the PR TD application and the date of actual arrival the PR falls short of RO compliance.

We do not know how the current covid-19 situation is going to affect these decisions. But it is probably safe to anticipate there will be a FAIR amount of additional leeway allowed PRs. For awhile anyway.

"Fair" does not mean a lot more leeway, let alone a blank cheque. So the typical factors will likely still be relevant. For example, PR TDs are usually valid for six months from the date of issue, but if you wait until the last month, let alone the last few days of that period, to make the trip, and that means you are that much more short of being in compliance, that is a factor that could tip the scales toward more closely and strictly screening your RO compliance the day you arrive.

In any event, if you are issued a PR TD and make the trip to Canada relatively soon, odds are good there will NOT be a problem at the PoE. Even though, as I and others often remind, any time a PR arrives at a PoE and is NOT in compliance with the RO, obviously there is a RISK of being Reported.


3)can i lose my PR doing all this ?

Yes, of course. You can. You have been cutting-it-close and there is a risk you will be denied a PR TD, as discussed above, which would be a decision that TERMINATES your PR status. (Some forum participants describe such a decision as "starting" the process to revoke PR status. But make no mistake, it is a decision that terminates status UNLESS the PR SUCCESSFULLY appeals this decision.)

There is a risk that even if you are granted a PR TD, if you are in breach of the RO upon your arrival in Canada you might be Reported and issued a Departure Order. This too would be a DECISION that TERMINATES your PR status. (And here too, some forum participants describe such a decision as "starting" the process to revoke PR status. But make no mistake, here too this is a decision that terminates status UNLESS the PR SUCCESSFULLY appeals.)

All that said, unless your proof of presence in Canada falls significantly short of documenting the times you were in Canada, or your reported travel history dates are shown to be inaccurate, or IRCC otherwise has evidence you were outside Canada some period of time you claim to have been in Canada, the odds lean more in the direction of getting the PR TD and no problem at the PoE. That is, the odds are probably good that you will NOT lose PR status.

Moreover, even if the PR TD is denied, your recent presence in Canada should allow you to obtain a special PR TD to come to Canada to stay pending an appeal, with good odds the appeal will succeed in saving your PR status.


SOME CONCLUDING OBSERVATIONS: Generally, this situation would warrant a short answer that there is some RISK but the odds lean well in the direction of NO problem.

And ordinarily I would not bother to offer much but rather defer to responses offered by others here.

I tend to address those situations that are or at least appear to be more complicated and difficult.

Frankly, there is at least an APPEARANCE that some aspect of this situation that does NOT add up. Some aspect APPEARS to NOT make sense. So I offered the longer, more in-depth observations above . . . which is to say and emphasize, again, overall your situation would seem to NOT be much of a problem, BUT . . .

. . . BUT in addition to cutting-it-close overall, and continuing to cut-it-close over a period of time, and given that you are no longer a new immigrant but rather well past the first five year period, and THEN with a PR card application in non-routine processing, and without a currently valid PR card, you decided to leave Canada during an emerging pandemic (which was clearly going global by the middle of February), the worst in a century, and you apparently left Canada without taking proof of meeting the RO with you. Something about this at least appears to not add up.

My sense is that you will still be able to keep your PR status (assuming that IRCC does not have evidence contradicting your claims about travel dates or presence in Canada). But you have pushed the envelope.