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PR Renewal - Time Spent Outside of Canada with Canadian Spouse Proof of Address

Hanataha

Star Member
Jan 28, 2021
65
9
Foremost, FOLLOW the instructions. With some exceptions (such as where information provided needs supplemental information to clarify it, to avoid being misleading for example), it is best to submit what is requested and NO MORE. Better to not include what is typically called "proof," for example, other than what the checklist specifies.

Regarding what to submit to claim credit for time abroad accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse, last I reviewed the forms (looking at the IMM 5444 (02-2019) version and item 22, situation 1), all you need to submit is proof of the relationship (marriage certificate for example) and proof of the spouse's Canadian citizenship (copy of passport identification pages or certificate of citizenship) and list the dates, address, and number of days you were living together abroad.

Overall, in the usual case, qualifying for the accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad credit simply requires showing there is --
-- a marital relationship with​
-- a Canadian citizen spouse, and​
-- you were living together abroad​




THE POSSIBILITY OF A WHO-ACCOMPANIED-WHOM ISSUE:

Generally I defer to qualified professionals. And given what you have been advised, that strongly suggests there is a low probability you will have a problem getting the credit for days abroad that you and your citizen spouse were living together. (I may be a bit at odds with other forum participants in this regard.)

If the lawyer was as adamant there is no possible who-accompanied-whom issue, none at all possible (if the couple are living together), as it seems you might saying, that may be a little bit disconcerting. Obviously we know, from official sources, that sometimes who-accompanied-whom can be considered and make a difference. I have cited and linked several such OFFICIAL sources.

It makes a difference if the lawyer was saying:
there is no who-accompanied-whom question at all for any PRs (abroad with citizen spouse)​
versus​
YOU, in your situation, do NOT need to worry about a who-accompanied-whom issue​

As noted, we know the first of these is not true. The latter, in contrast, may be a well-founded assessment of your situation in particular.

It is probably safe to still say (notwithstanding some possible trend-indicators there is increased attention and consideration given to this issue) that why the couple are abroad (such as, who has the job that leads the couple to live abroad) is NOT asked, NOT considered, NOT relevant . . . IN MOST CASES.

BUT how it goes in the individual case does not depend on how things go in most cases. It depends on the facts and circumstances in the individual case.

With the exception of some isolated anecdotal examples, involving CBSA officials at a PoE rather than IRCC officials, the cases in which the who-accompanied-whom issue is addressed, and applied against the PR, tend to be the more extreme examples in which it is quite apparent the PR was not at all established in Canada, let alone settled in Canada, and it is readily apparent the citizen moved abroad to be with the PR abroad . . . cases which quite likely are seen as overt abuse of the system. In most, egregiously so.

So the individual facts in your case matter. Despite the apparent "trend" there is little or no sign that IRCC is increasingly focused on generally evaluating who-accompanied-whom whenever a PR claims the accompanying-citizen-spouse-abroad credit. Neither the PR card application or the PR Travel Document application ask for information regarding who-accompanied-whom or information about why the couple is living abroad.

Among factors which may influence whether the who-accompanied-whom question even arises is whether the travel or absence history shows the couple traveling abroad together (not necessarily the same time, but relatively close in time) . . . in contrast, for example, to circumstances in which it appears the citizen spouse was living in Canada while the PR was living abroad, and the citizen spouse appears (based on timing) to have moved abroad to be with the PR. The latter can be seen to have raised the red flag leading to a negative approach to this credit.


ALL THAT SAID . . . the facts you describe suggest your situation could be a closer-call than what it appears the lawyer(s) have opined.

Hard to forecast since you have significantly more days actually IN Canada than PRs had in the vast majority of the actual cases officially reported where the who-accompanied-whom issued loomed problematically, but few enough to be within the range of some of those cases.

I am not suggesting you share additional details here to facilitate further analysis of your personal situation. This is not a suitable venue for obtaining that sort of personal evaluation and advice.

Which leads to your last query:



That sort of analysis and advice is WAY outside what can be reasonably relied on in a venue like this. Many more details are important. Too many to share here. Too many variables and contingencies for anyone here to offer an opinion about this that can be relied on much if at all.


Delay Getting New PR card Before Going Abroad Again; Being Abroad Without a Valid PR card:

At the least, it is likely you will not be getting a new PR card again for some time, and a significant risk you will encounter some level of non-routine processing that delays getting the new PR card before you need to go abroad again. There is a significant risk you will be one of those who needs to pick-up the card in person (not mailed directly to you).

Assuming you will need a PR Travel Document to return to Canada if you are abroad without a valid PR card, note that the visa offices abroad seem to be more strict in evaluating these questions than IRCC in Canada.

In contrast, if you can travel to Canada via the U.S. after your PR card expires and you have not received a new card, the risk of this issue causing a problem at the PoE could depend on whether you and your spouse are traveling together.

OVERALL . . . given the lawyer's advice, given a history tending to show you are in the process of getting established in Canada, given significant presence in Canada and current presence in Canada, it is probably fair to say you have good odds there will NOT be a serious problem, and very good odds of a H&C alternative even if the who-accompanied-whom issue looms problematically. And in any event the fall-back get-sponsored-for-PR if necessary option.

I would caution, nonetheless, even if you get a new PR card without much problem, remember the PR Residency Obligation is ongoing and even with a new PR card, and particularly if you are not traveling with your spouse upon arrival in Canada, you could encounter a PoE examination about RO compliance and the who-accompanied-whom issue could be a factor in how that goes.
Hi @scylla, @k.h.p. , @dpenabill I'm sorry for asking this question. I just want some help please.

I did my landing in March 2015. Stayed in Canada for 5 months and then accompanied my Canadian husband abroad. I have more than 1,000 days on RO.
I was supposed to travel back to Canada to apply for PR card renewal last March 2020 but due to covid, I postponed it.

I was able to get a multiple entry PRTD valid for 1 year. I'm planning to travel to Canada in April 2021 to submit my PR renewal application.

My question is, what date shall I put under "PERIOD TO BE ASSESSED" is it from March 2015-March 2020.
Or April 2016- April 2021.

if I put April 2016- April 2021, do I need to include the proof of my stay in Canada from March 2015- August 2015 or no?

Thank you so much.
 

Hanataha

Star Member
Jan 28, 2021
65
9
Congratulations Nunuc! I've been waiting to see your update here.
I just want to ask you if you submitted travel history from the countries you visited/ lived while accompanying your wife abroad?
Thank you.
What I mean with travel history is the immigration exit/ entry records of the country you had lived?
 

k.h.p.

VIP Member
Mar 1, 2019
8,810
2,248
Canada
Hi @scylla, @k.h.p. , @dpenabill I'm sorry for asking this question. I just want some help please.

I did my landing in March 2015. Stayed in Canada for 5 months and then accompanied my Canadian husband abroad. I have more than 1,000 days on RO.
I was supposed to travel back to Canada to apply for PR card renewal last March 2020 but due to covid, I postponed it.

I was able to get a multiple entry PRTD valid for 1 year. I'm planning to travel to Canada in April 2021 to submit my PR renewal application.

My question is, what date shall I put under "PERIOD TO BE ASSESSED" is it from March 2015-March 2020.
Or April 2016- April 2021.

if I put April 2016- April 2021, do I need to include the proof of my stay in Canada from March 2015- August 2015 or no?

Thank you so much.
Five years before April 2021 is April 2016. If you're applying for something in April 2021, days in Canada in 2015 don't count.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,758
Hi @canuck78, I'm sorry for asking this question. I just want some help please.

I did my landing in March 2015. Stayed in Canada for 5 months and then accompanied my Canadian husband abroad. I have more than 1,000 days on RO.
I was supposed to travel back to Canada to apply for PR card renewal last March 2020 but due to covid, I postponed it.

I was able to get a multiple entry PRTD valid for 1 year. I'm planning to travel to Canada in April 2021 to submit my PR renewal application.

My question is, what date shall I put under "PERIOD TO BE ASSESSED" is it from March 2015-March 2020.
Or April 2016- April 2021.

if I put April 2016- April 2021, do I need to include all the documents/ proof of my stay in Canada (like my daughter's birth certificate and hospital records) from March 2015- August 2015 or no?

Thank you so much.
Period to be assessed would end when you submit your application so in 2021. Not sure why you’d be submitting your daughter’s hospital records.
 
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scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
92,538
20,358
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
Hi @scylla, @k.h.p. , @dpenabill I'm sorry for asking this question. I just want some help please.

I did my landing in March 2015. Stayed in Canada for 5 months and then accompanied my Canadian husband abroad. I have more than 1,000 days on RO.
I was supposed to travel back to Canada to apply for PR card renewal last March 2020 but due to covid, I postponed it.

I was able to get a multiple entry PRTD valid for 1 year. I'm planning to travel to Canada in April 2021 to submit my PR renewal application.

My question is, what date shall I put under "PERIOD TO BE ASSESSED" is it from March 2015-March 2020.
Or April 2016- April 2021.

if I put April 2016- April 2021, do I need to include the proof of my stay in Canada from March 2015- August 2015 or no?

Thank you so much.
April 2016- April 2021

Period before that is irrelevant. Only the previous five years matter.
 
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Nunuc

Star Member
Sep 30, 2014
81
3
Hi - sorry for the late response Hanataha - yes, I went a little overboard and submitted literally every single trip that was taken while we were living abroad together (i.e. my official travel which meant that I was away from my wife and daughter). For the period when I was living abroad by myself, with my wife and daughter in Canada, I did not submit these details but noted that I had trips to countries x, y, and z (without details such as location, dates etc.). For trips taken with my wife and daughter, I submitted all the details and itinerary's as well as passport scans. Thankfully, work record keeping and online bookings of hotels/flights really helped with this. I am not sure whether they were happy to receive 100 pages of copies and scans from me but I do like to think that once they saw it all works out with my entry/exit data, it does build trust and confidence in my application.

I must add that I also called the IRCC hotline twice - the wait times were extremely long but the staff was super helpful - they advised me to freely submit my travel history on a separate sheet (and instead of starting to fill out the form tables just write Please See Attached Annex), adding the question number and UCI/ID; clarified what sort of evidence is needed for proof of address (as one poster noted, in case of working for int'l organizations, letters from the organization suffices if it notes that the family was with you at the duty station) and were in general super cheerful and helpful.
 
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canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,758
Thank you @canuck78. I'm referring to my hospital records when I delivered my baby in Canada.
I hope you paid for your delivery plus any other medical care you received and for any healthcare your child received because you weren’t entitled to healthcare if you only remained in Canada for 5 months. Your child’s hospital records are not really relevant but yours may be.
 
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Hanataha

Star Member
Jan 28, 2021
65
9
Hi - sorry for the late response Hanataha - yes, I went a little overboard and submitted literally every single trip that was taken while we were living abroad together (i.e. my official travel which meant that I was away from my wife and daughter). For the period when I was living abroad by myself, with my wife and daughter in Canada, I did not submit these details but noted that I had trips to countries x, y, and z (without details such as location, dates etc.). For trips taken with my wife and daughter, I submitted all the details and itinerary's as well as passport scans. Thankfully, work record keeping and online bookings of hotels/flights really helped with this. I am not sure whether they were happy to receive 100 pages of copies and scans from me but I do like to think that once they saw it all works out with my entry/exit data, it does build trust and confidence in my application.

I must add that I also called the IRCC hotline twice - the wait times were extremely long but the staff was super helpful - they advised me to freely submit my travel history on a separate sheet (and instead of starting to fill out the form tables just write Please See Attached Annex), adding the question number and UCI/ID; clarified what sort of evidence is needed for proof of address (as one poster noted, in case of working for int'l organizations, letters from the organization suffices if it notes that the family was with you at the duty station) and were in general super cheerful and helpful.
Thank you so much for your response Nunuc. This is really a very helpful info. God bless!
 

Hanataha

Star Member
Jan 28, 2021
65
9
I hope you paid for your delivery plus any other medical care you received and for any healthcare your child received because you weren’t entitled to healthcare if you only remained in Canada for 5 months. Your child’s hospital records are not really relevant but yours may be.
We came back in 2016 and 2017 and file taxes every year.
 

canuck78

VIP Member
Jun 18, 2017
52,959
12,758
We came back in 2016 and 2017 and file taxes every year.
I know this is an old post but for any future travel/relocation to Canada. There are residency requirements to qualify for healthcare even if you have a valid health card. Every province has their own requirements. Normally for the first year you must remain in a province anywhere from 6-12 months or you can be asked to reimburse the province for any healthcare you used. When returning to Canada after an absence you may be required to reapply for a new health card even if your current card is still valid. It depends on the length of your absence. In general this is to stop people from entering Canada, using the healthcare system and leaving Canada or that province (during the first year). Most provinces want to make sure most people receiving healthcare are tax residents of the province and paying taxes on their Canadian/worldwide income.